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You're way off base trying to put vpw in the same class as David...David was a legitimate leader of God's people; and to review what I said earlier - yes we are all sinners - but David was NOT a willful repeat gross offender like vpw a lying, thieving, sexual predator ! Seriously- vpw is in a special class of those with life-dominating sins that are addressed many different ways in the Bible - - so If you're looking for types in the Bible that are similar to vpw - try doing a study of false prophets and corrupt idolatrous leaders, nazi-type Pharisees, and sexual predators / adulterers. i know this can be hard to understand for some - but if a person will try to think outside the conscience-numbing mindset prevalent in vpw's doctrine and practice- they might see the hypocrisy of assuming vpw was in the same class as David or other notable people in the Bible . And to elaborate on life-dominating sin - if a person is a willful repeat offender - the Bible indicates that person has "earned" the right to bear a particular title - i.e. Adulterer , thief, liar, etc. it wouldn't hurt for some folks to step back and reevaluate their scale of values; imagine what a shocking and offensive impact it would have on someone not in TWI if I were to say to them "I'm in a non-denominational church - our leader is a plagiarist, adulterer , pathological liar, megalomaniac, and likes to molest young women, oh and he drinks a lot but he's teaching the word like it hasn't been know for centuries- wouldn't you like to go to church with me?" Complicated and murky situations come from allowing lying, thriving, sexual predators run their little crazy-town kingdoms. vpw was corrupt to begin with - he took it to new heights during the reign of his miserable "ministry". I sincerely hope that those who are so enamored with vpw do not come into power in any situation - but the reality of offshoots and splinter groups tells me otherwise....that's one reason I continue the fight against corruption , false prophets, plagiarists, and sexual predators on Grease Spot

After the live "Defeating the Adversary" class, filmed, and all of this excitement going on with $$$$$ hemorrhaging, Corpse alumni, and the rest, even though we are just as spiritually sharp as a tack there, somehow the numbers aren't increasing. As far as purging, there are only so many old rodeo clowns you can fire because their horses cost too much or people you can make an example of because their kid takes tae kwon do lessons. But hey, we are a cult. We can do so much more. Let's start by the Pregnancy Policy. Ladies, if you are under 35 and don't have any kids, you are not allowed to get pregnant. After all, women are a commodity in the ministry. They should walk 10 steps behind their husbands and only speak at home. Thus we have successfully implemented the same cost cutting controls as Communist China. We are really making progress here. One dude with a few kids already makes the spiritually betraying mistake of copulation with his wife ending in a pregnancy. He asks for an exception. 3 hours of screaming later on a Corpse night and we have a new purge victim, and plenty of fear of unprotected sex. Except for the mogfodt harem though - they were all on the pill. No pets allowed. dog food costs money. Thus, the "Expense Cutting Purge". Many fall victim to this. After this comes the "Bribery Purges". All the fulltime ministers now are dirt poor. One starting teachers salary for 2 fulltime employees. Some cull additional income through working the populace for gifts. Free cars, free computers, etc. Oh no. That is evil. That is bribery. We need to purge that and implement a law. Purge, purge, purge. Now full-time ministers are no longer able to accept gifts, they are to suffer in silence. I just don't understand. All of this purging going on - surely God must notice it. Surely it must turn the ministry around. Surely we are the most pure spiritual beings you ever encountered now. Classes should just run everywhere. But they don't. Somehow, basic common sense is bypassed - how can you expect to increase numbers and revenue by kicking everyone out and chasing them off? But hey - I guess that is one thing you can't expect from a mogfodt - common sense. What is the culprit? The PFAL class is too old. Too out of date. Too hard to balance getting the red on the rose to balance with real live flesh colors on a TV set. Too many outdated jokes and references. We've already had tremendous success remaking the DTA class. The live one worked for a while, then we bought cameras and crap to film before a live captive studio audience at HQ. That was great. We found so many devils to kick out. So let's ramp up to take it on. The huge one. The mamba jamba. The spiritually most significant event of our lifetime - the remake of Power for Abundant Living.

Gonna speak from my heart. I sold my honest soul to twi. Based on a lie that Craig Martindale was the man of god for our day and time. I hold no fault. Decieving and being deceived. I have learned to let my anger go. Let my words stand as a warning. TWI is a corrupt organization. That u can use God's Words to profit u only serves yourself. What was spoken was stolen. All i ever saw from 1999 to 2008 was a flat out coverup. Lies and a flat out coverup. How tf can u deny Craig Martindale. Donna? Really? U came to my house and told me I needed a break? Who tf are u. Btw i did walk in on Marsha n Melissa having a make out session in the EOB. Straight mouth to mouth. And how many times did i see u and Rosalie together. U at her house and her at yours. My house is clean. JYDL. Open your damn eyes. U think they groomed u for honesty sake? John L!nder could sink this life raft at any time. And u think Donna's not controlling things? I saw first hand at placements 2007 Donna and Rosalie huddled up on break deciding Way Corps assignments. Our lives are worth more. But this one thing i can say. I gave my all heart and soul. Open and honestly. Thank u for opening my eyes. U can't hide the truth.

again for those who may have missed it - Whiteside's quote that dMiller referred to did NOT put the kibosh on vp's plagiarism! not by any stretch of the imagination. but rather it makes the case to accuse him - where he admits to stealing other people's work !!!! it's obvious you do not think much of intellectual or academic standards or honesty - i gather that by how much you vaunt vpw to the sky. even if John S said half of what you claim he did - I put no stock in that after what i've read on his website and some of STF's REV Bible...I mean he actually changes some of the text from the original biblical languages to conform to his theology ! well, no surprise there - vpw did that too - and that's one of a multitude of reasons why I wouldn't recommend vpw's books to anyone. and you can read all about vpw's mishandling of the bible from a research staff point of view in Penworks' Undertow book ! ....hey, Mike - that's a book you might enjoy - it's got lots of interesting stuff about vpw Undertow Mike said: "...As far as Dr’s books go, I’m enjoying the peacefulness of reading them and incorporating them into my life without any debate." something I've realized since coming to Grease Spot for awhile now - the old vpw / TWI mindset can only thrive if it stays isolated from reality.

DL, I know a bit about cancer. I had Breast Cancer 13 years ago. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. Yet, I still ended up with it. I don't think my Cancer was caused by DS; I think Craig, and VPW were DS themselves. How I got Cancer, is a mystery to me. However, once I got it, I got it taken care of immediately!! So far, I haven't had it since, thank God!!

Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were one of his sexual victims...or if you were indoctrinated to put up with his filth via way corps training.... another thing - yes we are all sinners - but honestly I was never a sexual predator, adulterer or pathological liar, thief (like an unabashed plagiarist) or some other life-dominating sin. The Bible is very clear about the church NOT tolerating such willful, evil , rebellious, recurring behavior; yeah - like # 1 they should not be leading a church - can't picture god giving someone like that much revelation - it would be counterproductive- sending mixed messages to the church don't you think

Mike I beg to differ - the practices contrary to what is often stated in the PFAL books were introduced by vpw himself! In PFAL , vpw taught the Bible means what it says and says what it means - but in person - whether explaining to the corps while showing his favorite porn video or when sexually molesting women in the corps - he reinterpreted verses to allow for his licentiousness- like unto the pure all things are pure - or anything done in the love of god is ok.... seems like that contradicts Bible verses that prohibit adultery.... guess vpw meant to say in the class the Bible means what I say it should mean

Hmmm. Where this logic fails is in examining the current TWI. Rosie pretty much has every single teaching focused on collaterals content. And magazine articles too. For her, those books are more important to adhere to than actual Bible verses. And the fruit of that over the last couple decades is pretty evident with all that R & R group is posting up about numbers lost, people not sticking around, no need for yearly Adv. classes, etc. I mean just listen to their music or one of their teachings for Christ's sake. It is bland. Vanilla. Boring. Ridicule inspiring. Mind-numbingly dull. The production around it with the swinging ladies of the burlap maternity dresses and the lack of a live drumkit on set for decades is really a reincarnation of the Lawrence Welk show in an elevator filtered into on stage mannequins. HQ today is a cesspool of vipers all biting and devouring one another. Spying, reporting, people being bullied and fired like has happened forever. And out of that venomous snake pit comes the dullest product ever presented to mankind. Maybe the books were a good part of the problem all along. Lack of scholastic effort and integrity. Along with what Veep modeled with the narcissism and abusive and criminal behavior. I mean watching Leah Remini recently and her Scientology library - those books and L. Ron Hubbard's insistence on getting them into everyone's hands has been the means for Scientology to amass $$$ and control people for a long time. Overall, I'd say find a better Christian minister to model. One who is a little more involved with research and less involved with abuse. And don't go looking amongst the splinter societies for that either. That's just plain simple Jesus-parable-about-new-wine-and-old-wineskins advice.

Furthermore, Mike's tendency to re-imagine events or invent them wholesale is evident here. When we discussed TW:LiL, and the apologists were claiming that one offhand comment in one book was equal to the legal citing of sources in all the books in which this comment wasn't even mentioned, there were 3 posters who said that. If Mike posted on it at all, he was an incredibly minor voice, although he's now remembering himself as the main proponent who scored imaginary victories then also. (Yes, we've had a consistent pattern of that, too.) Based on how he's consistently misrepresented his discussions here over the decades, I'd be truly shocked if his discussion with JS even RESEMBLED what he's said. As if any of us here care what JS said in between managing his splinter group.

I read her book once, and that was once too often for me. Such a puff-piece.

Topic is: Is it okay to recommend Weirwille's books to others? Not: Is it okay to continue Mike's soap opera? Puh-leeze!!! Though the soap opera might be entertaining for some of the newer people here, for a while.

Actually, now that I think about it, the whole background for the Way instructing followers that "research means re-search" or searching out again what has already been discovered. Is this not a plagiarists manifesto? Is this not following in the footsteps of the mighty VP founder? For VPW, "research" meant plagiarism. Like the time he checked himself into the motel and wrote Receiving the Holy Spirit Today on a diet of grapes? Why did he need the motel? So nobody could see him transcribing over 70% of JE Stiles book that he would later publish as his own?

Alright I'm going to spend some time digging deep into this forum especially in the doctrinal forum. I appreciate all the responses from everyone. It seems I sort of overreacted but I'm just going to try and forget everything I learned from weirwille and stf until I look at all the evidence on this forum.

Sorry your "friend" has caused you so much angst. My suggestion is to read your bible. Several versions. Take your time, there's no hurry. Meditate on what you're reading. Pray. Talk things over with the Lord. He's good. He won't let you down.

I don't know how you excuse serial rape, misogyny, bigotry, false doctrine, narcissism, etc. Since you asked, yes you should get rid of what's on your pc and phone. If you want to share something with someone tell them Jesus Christ loves them now and forever. You don't need a class or a syllabus for that.

here's a little teaser for tonight's teaching: While it may be important to remember "to whom it is addressed" It’s just as important to know a tutu is not a dress

So sad. Beyond sad ... it's despicable how people were manipulated, hurt, and used in TWI. My heart goes out to all who were hurt by TWI leaders/members, beginning with VPW who was the one who modeled destructive behavior in the name of following God's Word. Not all leaders became equally destructive, but the potential was there. In my opinion, the root of all the evil perpetrated at TWI was VPW. It all goes back to him. Do not forget that. I knew him. I often wish I'd never met him, but I did meet him, and I was trained by him, and I learned hard lessons. I wasn't paying enough attention. I rationalized his bad behavior. I let his showmanship cloud my judgement about him. T-Bone put it well, "You cannot make someone pay attention to something that he or she does not want to notice." Wake up, people. Do not let TWI doctrines make you feel you should obey them or obey TWI leaders or TWI followers' idealistic view of what The Way is. It is not a transparent organization. Where on their website do you see any credentials for what they say they do best: biblical research? No where.

So activity to rival a Hollywood production commences. Who coordinates this? Why Rosie of course. The perfect production queen. The matriarch of High Country Caravan. The President's Cabinet Coordinator. D0nn@'s secret solace. And you know, this can't be the same class as VP's. It has to be newer, better. i am Loytoy the Magnificent. i have tights and production experience. And a trusty lumbering large sidekick to help with the gap in the Research department I fired. What was that Greek word again W@yne? Powder. Right. Got it. From the Greek podare. And the Bunny Dance is off in full production force. It seems kind of like PFAL. Some different words. Change a word. Re-arrange a word. You know, kind of like Eve's error in the garden taught in PFAL? Oh, except we have some really, really new insight on this one. Fueled by a picture of Michaelangelo on the Cistine Chapel ceiling, no less. Whoever said that Loytoy didn't cite sources? What is this heavy revy? Oh yes, the snake appeared to eve not in just a snakelike form, but actually it was a snakelike lady form - a lady snake, a snake lady. Eve's original sin? Homosexuality. And let's wrap it up by emphasizing that section in Romans that was probably a textual addition to cement the homophobe viewpoint in the Way about how evil all that gayness is, and especially that gay women sex thing. it was the original sin.

Oh I forgot to add in to this section "the legend of Holy Michael". So during all this fog lifting section and the running of the Galatians and the R & E, cowterds son-in-law Michael F0rt gets called up from being the resident comedian on the mic and Corps Coordinator at Emporia to be the Trunk Coordinator. He bebopped along until one of loytoys rants brought him up on Corps night. Apparently he had missed some things. We had shared with us a vision, a vision of revelation. There was Michael, and there was a breeze. Michael was blowing in the breeze like a flag, except the flag had holes in it, and there was the breeze just blowing through Michael. Time for Holy Michael to step down, and be replaced by Panasmello the Prostrated NOTE: these stories aren't all chronological, like this one is before....

And I really don't want to single out any one sycophant here when there were so many others to go around. I mean we have Al@n L1chtenstein here also, the Lallyo 6ft 2 screamfest pair, amongst that crowd. There were better eggs around too, like IMO J0hn and W@yne that started cffm and others. But overall, most of the ministry leadership advanced according the the tried and true adages taught in "VP n Me" - whoever blew the most sunshine up those tights did well.

And sadly, it still goes on.

So that's where the bowl of mints came from. when I was in twi we always added a bowl of mints at the lectern for any event setup.

Yes, some interesting distinctions are born of attributing symptoms to devil spirits. Someone is said to be "possessed of" such and such spirit. Another is "under the influence of" a devil spirit (this was some how not quite as bad, but still a problem). Later, I remember when Don Wierwille died of cancer, the Craiggers wading in on this topic. He brought up the "spirit of infirmity" is as a devil spirit cause of physical disease. There might not have even been sinfulness on the part of the afflicted. It was an attack of the adversary. (Also, smoking too, maybe.) I think cancer as devil spirit is a logical conclusion if you have first accepted the illogical premise that all life is spirit. We were taught that spirit was either spirit of God, a spirit of the devil, or the spirit of man (aka soul life). It's pretty easy to see this has big gaps as WW pointed out. What about fungus, plants, microbes, etc? In as much as cancer has "life of it's own", which category does it belong in? God is supposed to be all good so not Him. Obviously not a man, so that just leaves devil spirits. But then as you point out, if cancer is a devil spirit affliction, what does that even mean? Is it in your mind (that was how it was supposed to work right?) or is it in your body at some level? The more you try to explain it, the farther off the rails you have to go. In short, no, cancer is not caused by devil spirits.

A virus is a lifeform, as is a fungus. Both have "a life of their own." Cancer's a misfire in the body's immune system. We don't yet know all the possible triggers, but the answer is VERY complicated because there's lots of risk factors, including some genetic ones and exposure ones (it can run in families, exposure to a known carcinogen, especially over time, can lead to it). However, we don't have ALL the answers on it now, we may never have all the answers to it. I'd buy that devils could inspire unhealthy behaviours, and those unhealthy behaviours would be risk factors to cause cancer. There's no need to make up an entire system of "and devils can affect biology directly, but only under certain super-specific instances", which is what would be needed to try to accomodate the twi doctrine in any consistent fashion. In short, vpw made lots of stupid claims which were picked up by others. This was one of them. There's no evidence of any kind to support this one that isn't easy to dismiss.

Let's see... cancer = "life of its own" = must be spirit, and fetus = "life of its own" = (but doesn't breath air, so...) must not be spirit? Now that makes a lotta sense.

actually that's hilarious now 1) How many corps are in attendance? just me 2) And, only corps are present? just me 3) And, you're NOT recording is that correct? hang on, let me ask me

I wonder about all the toadies that went out with guns drawn to chase off Loyboy's "attacker". Gawd, what do they think NOW? Are they still proud of themselves for threatening and ousting a guy whose only crime was defending a woman against a serial rapist? Really, what do these clowns think when they look themselves in the mirror? The plagiarism, the lying and denegrating of anyone outside of the pack, the unabashed profiteering, the forced servitude, the sexual predation, and the shameless exploitation of virtually everyone that got involved, gee, wasn't it all just swell? And we thought we were onto something so holy. Gawd, the irony...

I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organization you belong to, there will come a day when that organization will no longer adhere to its 'mission statement'.

Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obstacles, both those that the Devil throws in front of folks, as well as those that they throw in front of themselves, being PEOPLE), then let's ask God to help them figure it out, so that His people can still be helped. I don't know all of them. And haven't seen any of them for years. But what I remember of those whom I did know, back in the day, is a heart to love God and serve His people. I hope that they end up okay.

I always thought the song "Won't Get Fooled Again" was particularly appropriate for GSC. ("Meet the new boss...same as the old boss...")

And another thing... As we approach retirement age (in another 20+ years), we look at that form from Social Security that shows how much we have earned and contributed to social security. It also give a projected estimate of what we could expect to receive from social security. This document should be a reality check for some people! The more you contribute the more you get in return (in theory). Those who don't think about retirement at an early age could regret it.