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I am a reporter. I cover criminal trials. I cover a lot of criminal trials. I probably know more about the law regarding crime than you do. However, if you were arrested, and I tried to represent you in court, I could probably go to jail for that. Regardless of the (assumed for the sake of argument) fact that my knowledge of the subject is greater than yours, it does not mean in any way shape or form that I am qualified to practice law. The developers of the REV have as much business constructing a new translation of the scriptures as I have practicing law.

John Schoenheit is not legitimate, but not out of deliberate malice. "Delude" comes from the Latin word that means "to play." Wierwille played us, and trained us to play other people. JS is so focused on how "right" the things he teaches are, that he never even considers that something he's already made up his mind about might be wrong. "Logic dictates" that JS is correct! The doctrine JS teaches is delusional. JS is a naturally kind person. If you disagree with him, he doesn't get mean or angry. He simply refuses to engage with your thinking, and ignores everything you have to say. I speak from personal experience. More later... Love, Steve

Hi everyone, and thanks, higherground30, for reading Undertow and sharing your response here. I want you all to know I often mention this website to "outsiders" when I give talks because I want them to know so many people are still sharing and caring about their TWI experience even after so many years. It affected many of us profoundly. The healing continues ... I am getting emails and notes through my website Contact page from people I knew many years ago who say the book is helping them in one way or other. That is my reward. Cheers to the courageous ones who speak their truth here and everywhere. You inspire me. Yours, Penworks a.k.a. Charlene L. Edge at http://charleneedge.com

You know, the one thing worse than the "cult of GSC" is the paranoid delusional cult of anti-GSC that seems to think it's got some profound insight into our groupthink. You're being ridiculous, especially those of you who have never had a post altered or deleted, yet you think all we do is identify cliques and punish dissenters. I PERSONALLY MADE SURE SOME OF YOU COULD REGISTER ON THIS SITE when it was closed to new registrations, and not once did I subject ANYONE to a litmus test for what you believed. If i wanted to keep you out, i could have. Easily. If i wanted to shut you up, i could have, easily. You know, the post that got people so riled up here WAS reported. It was reviewed. It has not been removed. But you self-righteous know-it-alls who have GSC all figured out seem to know that you know that you know we're going to rally around our favored clique at the expense of dissent. Stuff it. I'm sick of it. You are demonstrably wrong and I am SICK of your judgmental attitude. People are going to disagree. People are going to fail to get along. Get over it. You're all welcome here. And you're welcome to second guess "cliques." And you're welcome to second guess moderators. And I am free to tell you that your assessment in that regard is full of s***. I'm doing so now. Please wear only if the shoe fits. End rant.

I'm just saying this again in case anybody missed it. I just wouldn't want to do anything that might lead someone into the clutches of TWI. Nothing that might lead others to danger. Nothing to put a stumbling block in some innocent seeker's way. I might recommend the books that were plagiarised - stuff by Stiles, Bullinger, etc. There is also good modern literature, very readable, by (for example) John Stott that doesn't come with invisible sticky strings attached. A good Christian bookshop should be able to offer advice.

ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there, T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1 STF's REV in doctrinal forum T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught. Undertow ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille? T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow? ILSC: makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple. T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes! ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all. T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being. BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ. love and peace T-Bone

He sounds a great deal like the last child of one that passed through here, the one that later claimed to be his own Dad posting here to support his own posts, sockpuppet style. The "making up stuff" part's pretty obvious in spots. Remember how vpw claimed he "confronted" the church elders about money after they gave the newly-minted preacher ONE RULE and he made a policy of doing the exact opposite of what it was? Then he claimed they just went away after he spoke and he never had any consequences? Remember that pile of horse manure vpw peddled in "TW:LiL"? It's almost the same as the new claim of confronting people who just rolled over and took it with no consequences. Anyone who'd buy that one has never MET the people he's ALLEGEDLY confronted on MANY OCCASIONS.

I would love to hear Timlee's accounts of just some of the times he has confronted Way leadership. Details of who, what was said, when, and what was the cause of the confrontation. There must be much to learn, in his accounts.

I would not give mine away, nor sell them. Wouldn't give them to a charity shop - except for one, JCOP, I think it was. I wouldn't want to inflict the misery on someone else's life that was inflicted on mine. TWI's name and address is in the books and I wouldn't want anyone contacting them. There are much better study materials available, as books and online, and a good church can help.