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Hey with this and your "fair enough" comment I think I am going to peace out on this discussion for a bit. I do agree with you when researchers take the catalog of audio files of purported recordings of SIT and organize them into language constructs somehow that more can be learned at that time. What I learned from this discussion and the previous 86 page one is that VPW made a claim in one of his classes "nobody can fake SIT". I've found that statement to be totally and absolutely wrong. And before this discussion I would probably have believed that VP statement without questioning it.

Raf, my feelings are that there is no testable claim being made. I have a private prayer life. I have a way I interact with God. You don't like it, and think I'm either lying to all you, or am deluded and believe fiction. I used to get tweaked by you claiming things about my life, but then realized that it's a free country, God made humans with free choice, and I need to not be offended by the exercising of another human's free rights, whatever their belief about me or opinion about me is. I 100% disagree with you about SIT being a matter of faith. But of course I would. I believe there is a God. You do not. So what other conclusion would you have about me than I am talking to a fictional friend?

Raf, I'm not trying to win a debate. I ceased posting on the topic after 86 pages before, and I saw this being resurrected. I can totally appreciate it is part of a fact-based approach to sorting out our common past. I'm kind of sensing we are approaching that impasse in major premise again. I just have a different perspective from you, and hope that my contributions to questioning faith and SIT will also help some members recover from the Way that your approach to it can't connect with.

Gotcha, I see that more clearly after you made some edits. I should add I expressed I did not want to go to Fellowships, but I was informed I did not have a choice. I lied about SIT, and did not enjoy doing it. That became practice.

Now, now, Penworks, don't give them any mind..... The screeds with blanket accusations about how the GSC is full of anger are always posted by people posting with lots of emotion, and serve to salve their feelings about why so many people disagree with them. "Oh, you can't take their opinions seriously-they're full of anger!" Then they go off, smug that their worldview is still unchallenged. http://www.aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?sel&TheFoxandtheGrapes2

In plain English... I think to answer the question is to be in his heart and judge accordingly. I am not qualified to answer the question in the title of this thread. I am qualified, we all are, to have suspicions based on the available evidence. Here's mine: Remember how Wierwille said he was in those theological cemeteries... errr, seminaries, and they talked him out of God's Word until he no longer believed the words "holy" or "bible" on the cover? (Honestly, why wouldn't he believe "bible"? But I digress). I believe that is the last honest thing Wierwille said. Everything that comes after that moment is consistent with a con man using people's hunger and thirst for righteousness for his personal gain. EVERYTHING. Victor Paul Wierwille, in my opinion, was no more a Christian than I am today, no more confident in Genesis through Revelation than L. Ron Hubbard was in Dianetics. He sold a product he did not buy.

Oh, that's different. If you continued after you knew it was B.S, yeah. That's another story. And I tried to be clear that lying was a bad word choice FOR ME. I did not intend to extend it to you. "Talked ourselves into what we wanted to be true" would be more accurate for me.

Was SIT lying? I think so. I SIT for what is still the bulk (more than 50%) of my life. Daily. I began before I can remember. I can't remember learning English. I can't remember learning SIT. To SIT was a COMMAND. To not SIT was to oppose authority. You don't say "PASS" in Twig Fellowship, you OBEY. Fear drove SIT. But fear was not allowed. After a certain age, I broke a sweat every time I manifested. I had done it my whole life, but it kept getting harder. And harder. I knew more Word, took more classes, went Way D moved to New Knoxville. I had SIT for decades. But it kept getting harder, anxiety kept going up. But it was so easy as a young kid. Why was it getting harder? I think it was becoming self-aware. Therefore it became lying. I had passed from not knowing better to knowing better. Of course if children can convince a room full of adults they are genuine, and the children grow to realize they are really faking it, what does that say about the adult's ability to recognize genuine SIT?

boy isn't that the truth...after we left in '86 there were times we'd immerse ourselves in "worldly" music, TV shows, and music. Steve Winwood's song Back in the High Life Again became our theme.

Perhaps a more objective definition of "legit" would be helpful. I have no doubt that Mr. Schoenheit is sincere and well meaning. But whether or not anyone should believe his teachings on the Bible is an entirely different matter. Further, I don't think niceness matters. All Bible teachers, and for that matter, all public speakers, put on a show. They have to get an audience's attention in order to sell their ideas.

You move your tongue.You move your lips.That's it! That's it! you're doing it! You're chewing gum!