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very true. little known video of Craig's Homiletics Teacher

Repressed Memory: Now I know why it's taken me all these years to piece this timeline together repressed memory...... I've been blocking out those years of trauma and stress to protect my identity, my sanity. Piecing this timeline together year-by-year......is grueling. It's painful. With each memory, comes more memories.....and I find myself only skimming the high points (ie...the low points) of this turbulent time. I could name names, I could give more examples......but does it really matter? If I hadn't thrown away all my corps notes and way mags.....they would have triggered a mountain of repressed memory. Laced throughout these 174 pages on "About the Way" forum......I've been starting lots of threads, but never connected all those dots. Well, this thread is the concluding summary of nearing 18 years of posting on Waydale/GSC. From my childhood roots to brushing shoulders with all four twi-presidents......1) wierwille, 2) martindale, 3) rivenbark, and 4) JYDL.......I'm connecting the dots. And, still there's more.....that I'm leaving out. My spouse was/is deeply connected in all this, as well. She started working at hq in the fall of 1970. My wife is a corps grad, from an earlier corps than me.....and yes, at this point, I still choose to speak in anonymous terms regarding her involvement. From her years of involvement and insight, I've got dozens and dozens of things I've never posted........yet. Even though I'm well aware that WayGB and dozens of staffers know who I am (and many GSC posters know me as well) .......I still covet internet anonymity. I'm sure many of you feel the same way. But the "trustees" of this evil.......need to be exposed. .

I'm not done telling stories in this thread, but I did have the goal in mind for at least covering the timeline before Christmas 2016. My Christmas present to GreaseSpot Better than a date-fruit-nut bread thingy. Merry Christmas GreaseSpot!!!!

"Rise and Expansion"? Don't you mean "Rise and EXPULSION"?

I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters. dating when the books of the Bible were written

Well......I have come to an impasse. Unless I divulge more specifics, this whole timeline.....and the importance of why its so deep and personal.....will fall short of the "strike zone." So, hopefully I've got some fast balls, curves and sliders to keep the crowd involved. But.......with Christmas in sight and joy in the air, I've got dinner and evening plans. More to come..........

I'd like to join in on these thank-yous as well. Especially to Pawtucket for making this important and necessary site available. The good it does for many is clear and provable!

wow ... what sweet humility here (don't want to embarrass you by that ... just writing what I saw/felt as I read this!) There's something so damn attractive and endearing to me about a humble man! Your wife and you sound like beautiful folks. : ) (I liked the "I started out small -- on vacation, mother's day, etc".!) Funny. Thanks for such refreshing honesty -- great to read! Funny -- I also have shed the twit indoctrination re: homosexuality ... actually, I'm somewhat ashamed I held it for quite a few years. It was so sickeningly judgmental. And when you consider that Twinkle Toes w/ the enormous forehead was a massive adulterer, it really infuriates beyond anything that he led the homo purges and messed up so many people's lives in the process!

Old Wineskins: The intensity of clinging (reverting) to "old ministry" stuff was NO LONGER PERMITTED. Whether it was Pressed Down, Joyful Noise Takit, music....or "Will the Real You please stand up" by Lynn....or old ministry songbooks with songs of Jesus.....or even wierwille's old teaching tapes....NOPE. The fall of 1994.......the "old-wineskins purge" was throttled forward. Not was it only "no longer permitted"......it could get you possessed. Those devil spirits are really, really sneaky and they can jump from that music tape into your brain cells. Once there, that pesky spirit has found a home. Stay vigilant, damnit. Music, teachings, songbooks, jewelry, old corps buddies who left, etc. etc.........martindale mandated that all in twi "sanctify ourselves." Much of the corps/sunday teachings were rooted in OT scripture. Those who had family/relatives in splinter groups were TOLD to mark and avoid them. Hanging out with your ex-corps brother or sister could get you possessed.

Thanks Chockfull and ditto for me... and not to leave out anyone I also wish you all Happy Festivus

LCM Screaming: Martindale is most noted, far and wide, by his screaming tirades. Whether it was corps night, sunday teachings, or even the wap-class......the man came across as "unhinged." Besides the sex predation, screaming into the microphone was his legacy. He would lose control and rail on a subject for 20 minutes that was irritating him......he claimed it was "spiritual anger." But his scream-fests could be sub-divided: 1989-1992......lcm railed against geer, lynn, cop-outs, those who'd left 1993------>......lcm began railing at those IN twi, corps, staff, those who wouldn't increase commitment It seems to me that the yelling and railing against "the homo infiltration" began, in earnest, around January 1994. The months that followed were a constant barrage of accusations and public labeling so-and-so in corps & staff meetings. Month after month, martindale fumed.......and then, wrote that July 1994 "homo purge letter." So.......he yelled and yelled some more. And,.......following the timeline, A WHOLE YEAR LATER, the 1995 rock of ages, "the homos had infiltrated the roa." Gawd.....where is that elusive manifestation "discerning of spirits" to keep them from ever getting near martindale in the first place? Or, why couldn't martindale (or wierwille) EVER CAST ONE OUT? Where was this prevailing, spiritual power that these mogs wielded? And......connecting the dots, that is why I never believed that the 1995 roa had homo-spirits running everywhere. Nor did I believe that it was the reason why martindale cancelled any future rock of ages. The dead give-away was that first September 1995 corps night.......when martindale spent nearly two hours detailing the financial responsibilities, limits, policies, etc regarding full-time way corps. Finances, finances, finances......and only about ten minutes of the homo/roa ordeal. Martindale's tirades on those corps nights was epic.......... .

Debt. More goings-on at the BOD level. So the topic of debt causing all the purges during Max Forehead's reign never goes away and never will. Rosie has R1c0 M@gn3ll1 head up some kind of research on the debt topic, which basically consists of some real VP level dancing around a topic. I mean we learn in this Corps teaching a new dimension to Bullinger's dispensations. Apparently God set up administrations like VP taught us, but there were some things that could change administration to administration, but there were other things that did not change from administration to administration. Like for example, the tithe. The tithe was one of those things that never changed when administrations changed. it is a universal truth, like oxygen and breathing, God intends you to send $$$$$$ to the Way. Debt, apparently, also is one of those things that never changed through administrations. It is always wrong. Yeah. New light for our day and time. Apparently R1c0's stint as an apostle lasted for exactly one teaching. This is public. What is going on behind the scenes with spiders and flies? Rosie at this time has one of her closest relationships with the lawyer Louis Columbo, after all the lawsuits. I mean she is closer to her lawsuit attorney than she is to her Pres. Cabinet, Staff members, and most certainly anyone outside of HQ. He's her bestie besides Donna. What is our friend Loius advising Rosie during this time? Of course I don't know due to lawyer/client confidentiality, but it is not rocket science to put things together. The Peeler lawsuit had just finished, with some allegations to do with the debt policy and forcing Peeler to sell his house and move closer to Corps "where the heat is " gaggggggg. So legal advice tells her that you cannot change the debt policy for fear of more and abundant lawsuits like the Peeler lawsuit. if the policy changes, then those affected by the old policy would have more grounds to sue. Isn't it so cool when legal advice aligns so perfectly with the new light you are seeing from scriptures? Rosie loves it when a plan comes together. Debt policy - here to stay folks. And you will never know why. Just more mushroom teachings. If this isn't evidence the Way is an old wineskin I don't know what is. In the midst of all this new light, R1c0's teachings spark a response from a few isolated Corps members on the debt topic. Other perspectives are shared than the new light. As Rosie's manner is, these names make her black list for later. Then, when any opportunity arises - complaints, anything - purge purge purge. She puts these members on probation and limits their ability to share their perspective by shunning. Rosie is becoming even better and better at eliminating murmuring. Her skill here is becoming unparalleled in the world, except for maybe Kim Jong Un in North Korea. A BOD member gets caught up in the alternate research. H@rv3 Pl@tig. He sees some points in the research, tries to reason with Rosie about it. Her response? H@rv3 is sh1tc@nned, sent away, and now has a job in collections. I guess that will serve him right for murmuring about debt. I guess kissing @$$ isn't so great of a strategy there. Rosie replaces H@rve with a VP who although they had litlte field experience worked in Trunk Office - Chocolicious himself - J0hn R@pp. Although he is still a Loy boy - ordained by Craig, he can be controlled. R@pp goes through a decade developing a split personality. One personality on any topic before bringing it to the BOD, and a completely different one after.

So, after a period of time, Corps overworked like always to make leadersh1t happy. Rosie decides it is in the best long-term interest for the Way to remake the WAP class. I mean what other decision could she make in a ministry whose core tenet is plagiarism? It's not like a zebra can change its stripes or anything. Make a new class with a different name? Why, when you can just plagiarize Forehead and W@yne's work, and assign other tools to do the teaching? Besides, we have all these splinter groups that are covering making new classes. In their minds, they are reaching out in a new direction, studying for themselves, teaching new things, forging in new directions in Christianity. They would do better to throw out all Way stuff and completely start over, go back to school, maybe do a "church plant" like they are training divinity students nowadays. Start one up with someone who has no Way experience at all. That way after 20 years, it would look more like a church and less like a splinter cult. But they don't. They continue to glorify VP's name, whitewash his life story, and continue his pattern of plagiarism. The Bible says they teach for filthy lucre's sake - KJV English meaning their motivation is money - to make a living, and increase their power. Anyway, Rosie selects 3 of her main tools to teach the class and there is actually permitted a little bit of personality in the class. Selected are J0hn "Chocolicious" R@pp, St3ve3 "Failed Physics Experiment" L0ngl3y, and D@vid Ch@voustie. They add in reviews by a staff member B3th C0yle which I swear look like audition footage for "The Stepford Wives". Weird inauthentic expression, kind of looks a little off like Anamatronics. Here they can replace those oh so pesky Class coordinator comments which could range out of control with much more vanilla comments. This class pretty much covers the same material as Da Forehead, minus some of the homo rants and de-emphasizing that overall framing of the class ending in Romans 1. Rosie makes a brief appearance looking all regal and pope like. Our good friend John Juedes wrote up a page about this class - http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_newWap.htm. The timeline here is 2006. What happens after this? Of course - same pattern. Now all Way members must be put through the new class. The one they heard Da Forehead teach. The one they have heard Corps teach live. Now the third iteration through the same basic material. Oh, and since years have passed, some of those cult members have kids that are turning 12. Presto, instant class. Now with numbers and the Way, they have always had some kind of minimum requirements for how many new students for a class. 7 has been like the magic number forever, but in the 80's they had film classes with 25 new students, and boring audio for the smaller ones. When the WAP class is first released throughout each of the 3 cycles, "new students" in the class are those who have taken the old class but not the new class. This way the pattern for these class rollouts is - Limb coordinators run the class for the Corps, Corps run the class for the grads, then runs for new students, and trains up class coordinators, then they run the class. At least in theory. it never gets past the Corps level of running them, because outreach isn't exploding for some reason, and it never will again.

These time line posts have been really insightful for me in understanding twi history with what I witnessed during my short run at hq. I've been quietly lurking but will add a few points post lcm, 2000 to 2008 soon. Thanks chockful, skyrider, et al.

Skyrider! Your posts are terrific! Even after all these years, I did not realize you were there until 1998! Your detailed info from the perspective of being a Limb guy during the Okie Dope's Reign of Terror is unique. Therefore, keep em coming! Great documentation from firsthand experience. Accurate, documentable, FACTS about TWIt throughout its various iterations is THE single greatest weapon in their battle to avoid the throes of their inevitable death. The recent posts by you, Chockful, Shortfuse, Krys, Penworks, and many other greasespotters of late, have been the best info on TWIt since the 2007-2010 period IMO. That means tangible damage is being done to the cult of Crotchaven as it prepares to go through the optics of another mantle toss! Some things seem to just refuse to change. Thanks Skyrider for ALL the many hours you have devoted to the mission of this website. Almost 5000 posts! You have helped many brother. The Boss is happy I'm sure. Fuggedabouddit!

Note: I welcome any input, correction or feedback to this timeline. Some of you posters....ie Chockfull, Krys, others....might remember more details than me. Perhaps, few care.....but thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to my perspective during this time and as a limb coordinator from Aug 1992 - Aug 1998. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Time to Sell: Obviously, with the massive exodus of 1987-1989......all of twi's assets were in flux. Why have huge limb homes? Or an Emporia Campus? What about the Indiana Campus? Years later......why even have a motorcoach for twi-prez? Indiana Limb Home......sold around the end of 1990 (former limb coordinator went to geer camp) Other limb homes (??)......Ohio or NC (I can't remember) Emporia Campus..........sold around July 1993 (??). Had to reduce selling price. Rome City Campus.......sold around 1996, or thereabouts President's Motorcoach......not sure when sold, but why have a traveling sex-motel room for a predator?

it occured to me tonight that as of a couple of months ago, I've been TWI-free for a decade, and then I wanted to come and tell you all. me and my kids are alive, and better than we've ever been, but I'm sad to say the marks of the cult are still effecting us. I don't think it's possible to live through what we did without permanent scars... but I relish my freedom every day. I'm so happy that I've learned that I don't have to put up with bullying and gaslighting. I can just walk away now. it took years of therapy to get here, but here I am :)

Hearty congrats potato! Glad to hear all is well! Keep on rockin' in the free world!

I always read with great interest your posts, Skyrider and think you have a great book on your hands! You’ve got a knack for very organized analysis along with some thought-provoking insight too….for now I’m going to copy a bunch of detailed posts on various threads from you, Don’t Worry, Chockfull and others - and not to forget all the timeline stuff WordWolf has done and is still putting more together – and save them in a folder on my PC – you know it’s sort of a healing thing…maybe a sense of satisfaction from being able to make sense of what happened in my cult-daze....anyway… I love your jumping off of a moving train analogy – that is certainly an apt description of the feelings I had. Having so much invested in The Oblivion Express – it’s a wonder any of us got off of it! There’s so many action-movies that have a heart-pounding fight scene on a moving train and I put leaving TWI right up there with the best of them! Embroiled in the tentacles of the TWI mindset…the mental battle of emotions…logic surfacing to engage “ministry-brain”…this thing called “the self” flailing about in desperation to survive…such a confusing internal struggle my wife and I both had – while at the same time we are slowly inching our way closer and closer to some nondescript jump-off point. You asked “how will life change?”. And that’s a VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION! Before I could actually jump I had to break free from perhaps the strongest tentacle – the fear of leaving “god’s ministry”. I can’t count how many times a teaching by vp about Judas walking out and it was night (John 13:30) would pop up in my head. It’s been so long I can’t remember vp’s exact words but something like Where you gonna go?...The only alternative to the ministry that taught you the word is oblivion…. Well, the shoe is on the other foot now. That old shyster vp…he swapped the labels – we were on The Oblivion Express…I’m sure glad we jumped off that crazy train.

March 8, 1989: When the trustees made that "formal announcement" that they were no longer in agreement with chris geer (and admonitions to "get back to the Word" with geer at helm).....it brought cheers and celebration to many. From what I remember, it was JP Wierwille himself (working as dept coordinator of shipping/receiving) who coined that day as "Independence Day at the Way." The pressure valves were releasing a tension and pent-upped stress.......heck, the trustees started being friendly again. For months, the sunday teachings were gentle, and simple, and caring. The 1989 rock of ages had the same approach.......slow-down, take time for others, appreciation. Heck, from the main stage.....the trustees displayed this thank-you message to corps, staff, and followers. Would this last? Would it take root? Would it grow? Maybe my recollections of this are fuzzy......my wife and I were on the field with two little toddlers just out of diapers. As young parents, we spent plenty of time watching the first baby steps, new words, love squeezes of pure innocence, and smiles that warmed our hearts. What was happening at twi was NOT our world......at the moment. Sure, we were involved and had relatives on twi-payroll......but everything seemed notched back to a slower pace. It felt good. We had corps friends in.......1) geer group, 2) lynn group, 3) wait-and-see group, 4) don't-care-anymore group, and GASP, 5) life-is-more-than-just-bible-study group. Many of our friends were in that young parenting group, as well. Kids' birthday parties, Chuckie Cheese, fun at the park, swimming, zoo visits, etc......yeah, life. For a change. But.......we still had this caring concern to help others. And, opportunities to serve came knocking. By the spring of 1991, I was in a better position to "serve." And, how does one best serve?......by opening your home twice a week to bible fellowship. More involvement, more opportunities......... The Game of Incrementalism One day towering corn was born They Thought They Were Free (the Germans 1933-45) by Milton Mayer From the book "They Thought They Were Free (the Germans 1933-45)" by Milton Mayer. One section, chapter 13, discusses how gradually the abuses of the Nazi's worsened, and how this was tolerated by the German people. "Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained, or on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' that no 'patriotic German' could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field see the corn growing. One day it is over his head." .

Some great points, Waysider….your post got me to reflect on my views before, during and after TWI…Before TWI I was into the arts (playing in bands and pursuing an education in fine arts) – late 60s early 70s…and I used to have a live and let live philosophy – and perhaps that was the prevailing attitude with most of the folks I hung out with. I’m not a social scene expert but people into the arts were somewhat of a counterculture – we did our own thing and it was beautiful...."It's your thing do what ya wanna do...I can't tell ya who to sock it to..." I don’t remember a big focus on sexual orientation back then – it was not a prominent issue back then - and besides I had my religious environment – Catholic grammar, high school and college…so you have that whole sexual repression thing going on anyway (…funny how both the Catholic church and TWI have had problems with sexual predators). i think that stayed with me – even today I still think they ought to get all that sex stuff off the big screen and put it back in the home where it belongs – I’m here all week folks. ..... Seriously, what did I find so interesting about folks I hung out with? it was simply whatever was at the center of their life – be it drumming, painting, writing, philosophizing, and how that is what made them happy…fulfilled or something. But then I get in TWI and lo and behold – I’m railroaded into getting on whatever bandwagon they had going at the time. Tolerance is NOT one of the manifestations of the TWI spirit. Keep in mind I am the Rob Petrie type – you can get me to do some things – but if it goes against my nature I do it while dragging my feet. Man, I turned off a lot of my friends as I pushed PFAL – with the old sales pitch this will improve your relationship with god or it will help you get better at what you do…some bull$hit like that…fast forward to being in the corps program – I remember some rant by LCM over taking a stand against homosexuality – and it was revolutionary (I say that sarcastically) – it was something along the lines of even being united with other denominations against homosexuals – who cares if they believe in the Trinity, we can work on that later… chuckle, chuckle….TWI does not tolerate differences very well. So now – a lot of years since I left TWI – I’m back to the live and let live philosophy…and life is simple again…now I’m more concerned about my immediate world than what’s going on “out there”…it took me a long time to realize how hypocritical I was in the Way. I used to put on “Twig face” and was nice to everyone in the Way – yet being such an azzhole to my wife and kids at home. Talk about a relationship that needs improving! We’ve be at it for 40 years now – I’m still crazy about Tonto – and I’m thankful she puts up with me…I work on trying to be less of an azzhole on a regular basis now…I started out small - just while on vacations, mother’s day, our anniversary, her birthday…but now I try to dial down my azzhole-ness throughout the week….it’s just a walk, people.

Brilliant...

Excellent posts AGAIN, Chockful! Keep em coming, please! Very interesting for me to note da forehead's complete ineptitude at "outreach". Thought some understanding into what caused that would got appropriately here Chockful. The OKIE Dope was witnessed to by Joe Coulter at KU. Of course he immediately went waybrain in about a week and never turned back. He went to Wichita a lot to see Donnie Fugit and his revival. Waited until he graduated from KU with a undergraduate degree in Psychology, and then begged his way into the second corpse in the summer of 1971. His only "on-the-field" assignment was for the 2 years immediately following his graduation from the corpse. He was the first guy in OK & the first LC there from 1973-1975. In 1975, he was made Corpse Director and led the slave labor reconstruction at Emporia with some interim 5th and 368 brand new slaves of the incoming 6th corpse. That was the last time OKIE Dope ever left a root locale until he was run out of Dodge in 2000 by Rosie and his wife! Da forehead never had a clue how "the Way tree" worked! Never! He was used to being mister moggie Coordinator and director of everyone around him. There was nothing in OK when he got sent there. Dictor threw him a few WOWS, and then Mr. Future dancing president rammed into virgin territory and applied every bill maize Carnegie technique and dpw PR stunt he had just been brainwashed to, and got the girls in the Price Family and some other impressionable young talented kids to bite the TWIt bullet in OK City, and that was his great outreach rite-of-passage. A bunch of those talented kids wound up going into the 6th corpse where OKIE dope was now King. 2 of the Price sisters were in that 6th corpse. The older one was briefly the royal fiancée. The younger went on to "seed-of-the-serpent" fame. So, da forehead had no knowledge of how the outreach, money making machine of TWIt functioned. He simply assumed that since he was the assigned man-o-god (MOG) everyone and everything around would carry out his every word cuz he was the closest thing to dictor paul in the area and he was to be treated and obeyed the same way. Now that's easy to do when you've been surrounded by nothing but adoring sycophants who believe the same delusion you do. And, they are told by the big MOG that everything you say and do is the best example of what it means to "be corpse", you have an instantly captive audience. We all know that is NOT reality! The "field work" was always left up to Howard and the "general management kids". Any of us who had gone witnessing, run fellowships, branches, areas, classes of every kind, especially piffle, encouraged and collected abundant sharing, cast out devils, ministered healing, drove hundreds of miles back and forth on a weekend to attend some youth advance or class at HQ, ran all over the state running public exes, while lugging around TVs and those huge SONY 3/4" video players, and a whole bookstore in the trunk of your car! LOL! Da forehead was always envious of us "field guys", and frankly, intimidated by several of us. It !s easy to be King when you are given your own campus, castle, and concubines. But to "fight the spiritual battle" 24/7 out there among the seed-boys and the debbils....."well I could do that, but I'm here teaching the future!". Da forehead was always very jealous of binnie finnegan. Beence was the "working believers" MOG. Brash, bold, irreligious, and from the streets of NY. He put together the real practical application of DPW's vision for Way productions. He was a master showman. With the help of the original Joyful Noise, a group of really talented 4th and family corpses, he put together the take a shit caravans. and, later the basic framework for Takit and the outreach cities/weeks which followed. He inspired several productions which were very popular at the cultural center in New Bremen, and several which took the ROA by storm. He also was the Trunk guy, in charge of everything in the USA, not just some puny Little campuses in the sticks of rural America some where. Beence was always up there next to DPW at corpse week too. As a matter of fact, more people at corpse week and the ROA cared about what finnegan was saying or doing than what the corpse Director was doing. All of us on the placements teams at corpse and WOW placements were quite aware of this. It was an inconvenient fact. so, it does not surprise me at all that da forehead relied completely on behavioral control as his management style. He had no knowledge of business. No natural aptitude for business. No training other than the bill maize classes. No biblical education or "training" outside of TWIt, no great intellectual prowess, No practical understanding of HOW the WAY worked any where outside of his own four root locale walls, and no one to confront him on his paranoid delusions and sexual perversions. Donnie always intimidated and manipulated da OKIE king intellectually. Coward intimidated him in the practical, business, living life sense, but more importantly, made him feel like Dictor was never really his friend like he was Howard's. When Rosie came plowing in, with Donna breathing flames from her nostrils, the dancing Prez was totally exposed and the maggots began eating the carcass right away. What you've described above reminds me of King Lear. It is tragic for those who put themselves through this. It is also criminal and therefore MUST BE TOLD. Martin fake is a malignant paranoid narcissist. He is a serial sexual predator and batterer. He is sociopathically self-deluded. He is still living off of TWIt money. He is most miserable above all men.

My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should. Was I being shallow and narcissistic? I'm sure by a few peoples' criteria, yes. However, by my own criteria, I had just been informed by the God experts upon whose opinion I had staked my life, spent my money, alienated my family and tried to raise my son (who is thank God very forgiving) that I was no longer permitted the privilege of fellowshipping with them. The spirit within me had died and shortly thereafter my physical body would die also. I was convinced by these bastards that I was totally useless, utterly worthless, a vile, loathsome scab-encrusted, pus-dripping subhuman excrescence, unworthy of the privilege of inhaling oxygen on God's planet. What drives people to suicide? Instead of listening to pinheads like this guy and his sycophants, listen to people like Waysider, whose friend died, listen to the people who knew and loved Tom Mitchell, listen to my son who walked in the door of a friend's apartment just as he pulled the trigger that blew his brains out. He still can't talk about it. He lost a couple friends in high school to suicide. They just gave up. Whatever drives us to judgment, let's make it a judgment of compassion and love, not self-righteous haggling and misdirected loyalty. WG