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Yes, between the vicster and da forehead, these guys truly missed their calling. I mean they should have been the head of the Westboro Baptist church denomination, with all that hate. Rocky one of the things I struggle with talking about this period of time is all that hate against those who have a little different makeup with respect to identity and attraction. Whatever answers people think they are getting from scriptures on this topic, I guarantee you that God is not hate. Just the opposite, and the idea you are "loving" somebody by taking a stand and hating them for their own good is disingenuous at best and sheer hypocrisy at worst. From my perspective, if Cra1ey did return to his former lifestyle whatever that is (and I have no knowledge of what it is), found love and support and recovered from the insidious cult that is the Way, more power to him.

w/r to PC - political correctness, I personally just feel that more understanding and leeway needs to be given in the areas of identity and attraction. Scientific evidence has shown developmentally that this shows up as early as 6 to 10 years old. And this is shown to be independent of the views and orientation of the parents. That speaks more loudly to me than ignorance with a vein popping out their neck. This leaves the WAP class "research". To me any kind of a New Testament Grace based God is not congruent with a Father that would inflict a cruel trick on someone by creating them with genetic conflicts in identity and attraction to struggle with that places them on a tightrope of teetering over a precipice of being worthy of being executed. Don't know why the Levitical laws would be as such, but there is a lot of wacky stuff in that book with respect to laws. Those are my views, and whether or not they are PC I have not given one iota of thought. I don't mean to derail sky's thread here - but it's happening I think because the Homo Purges were a big part of this time period. Coming to grips with this topic is probably a big deal. .

Nope. Not an effort to be PC on my part. Anyone who knows me in real life knows I don't give a rat's azz about being PC.(Nor did I reference any connection to genetics.) Through the years I have had many friends and coworkers that are either homosexual or transgender. I can assure you they did not all live the same "lifestyle". Ask yourself the question, "What is the heterosexual lifestyle?" There is no answer. Some live a sports centered lifestyle. Some live a music centered lifestyle. Some live a technology centered lifestyle and on and on and on. If someone is heterosexual, it simply means that their sexual attraction is directed at the opposite sex. If they are homosexual, their sexual attraction is directed toward the same sex. People aren't cured of their attraction. They just learn how to repress and deny it. (Think celibacy.) Don't even throw the old devil possession schtick in the mix. We'll be here forever with that one.

PC my foot Death is a choice. We die when we quit believing to live. Childhood is genetic. But children CHOOSE to act like children. And the rod must fix that. Bull crud bull crud bull crud TLC you a diverting from the idea TWI believed there is an absolute right and perfect choice in every second of every mundane situation. Labeling any one choice as a fault allowed them to dismiss all following actions and consequence and assign blame when no fault was even necessary. Red Herring.

Just a side note: The reason some people might find it offensive is because it's not a "lifestyle" any more than being heterosexual is a lifestyle. It's just one element of the individual's whole makeup. If we said a person lives a heterosexual lifestyle, what would that even really mean? Not all heterosexuals live the same lifestyle nor do all homosexuals live the same lifestyle. This is not directed at any one person. I'm only pointing it out because using it in this manner can cause the listener to disengage. Well, at least that's been my experience.

The depth of grandiose-stupidity in THAT ONE STATEMENT........should have cancelled wierwille's mog-card and stopped his entrance into spiritual pontificating. OMG.....why the man just opened his mouth and removed all doubt. It was THIS type of stuff that sounded like fingers on a chalkboard.......eeeeek. One man writing a book......would have CHANGED the whole country???? Heck, wierwille spent a lifetime and is an unknown. Rather than laud his efforts and his Lifelines........many of us, here at Greasespot Café, could easily put together wierwille's WTF-Lines.

I’ve put that Scientology expose on my watch list/Amazon Fire Stick. After reading several books on Scientology and then Undertow I think I need a little break from cult stuff – maybe I should watch a sci-fi movie like Battlefield Earth to get my mind off of all this . Battlefield Earth Chockfull, you really got me thinking about a few things...Scientology like any cult does have its own jargon – “suppressive, auditing, clear”…but way-world’s special vocabulary often sounded very biblical to me - - it appeared innocuous…maybe that functioned like an additional layer of concealment. Buying into vp’s accuracy-and-integrity-of-the-word-bull-$hit allowed him to write an alternate lexicon in my head. To break free of TWI as well as being mission critical to the revival of your gray matter it is important that you see the shape-shifting (or is that $hit-shaping?) ability of way-jargon. Remember vp’s noble and courageous sounding statement on standing up for the truth “when it comes to the word, I have no friends”…I now understand that to mean “if you don’t agree with my interpretation of the bible you can just take a hike.” I think one of the biggest challenges for a person leaving TWI is getting past the loaded language that reinforces a certain mindset and thwarts critical thinking. Grease Spot is a good antidote – you listen to other viewpoints – and sometimes step back and re-analyze your own perspective – maybe even realize you have a bias or two... or three. And that’s ok – I believe part of developing critical thinking skills is being aware of your own bias.

Okay, I tried to ignore that comment. But it bugs the hell out of me. In other words, there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance associated with the phrase, "Returned to former lifestyle." Also, who gives a crap what you've heard? In instances like this, I immediately go, in my mind, to I Corinthians 2:11: "For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Be clear TLC, you aren't what bugs me. The statement you made bugs me. First, neither you nor I are qualified to judge Craley about this or any other matter that would assume any knowledge of what goes on in his heart or mind. Second, "former lifestyle" might seem like an innocuous phrase, but it smacks of judgment. Rather than get into a doctrinal p1ssing contest, I'll just say that I believe Wierwille's understanding of homosexuality, homosexual people AND what the bottom line of what the bible has to say about the subject was incomplete. As far as we know, Craley may have decided that to his own self he must be true. It's not something we are qualified to assess, whether it be Cra1ey, Myrac1e or even RFR. We have plenty of other reasons to scorn RFR.

Thanks, Rocky......good to hear. When I submitted my first draft to Dav1d Cra1ey......he wrote on the top of the page, "Unusually well written." My research paper.......The Perfection of the Lord: Lovingkindness, Judgment and Righteousness Jer. 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

To me "The Way Tree - TM" was one of the greatest cons the ministry had going for it. Early Way Prod - "I am a leaf, ....... on a mighty tree......" There is absolutely one purpose for this brilliantly engineered extended metaphor - to keep the $$$$$$$ flowing from the leaflets to the root just as surely as life's true pure water - the genuine Present Truth - TM taught from the platform of the Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium flows so freely to the leaflet. I don't even need to ask for verification from some of the 60's and 70's members if the timeline of when this emerged is during the purges of Doop and Heefner from their positions in Way West and Way East over the issue of sending in the $$$ to HQ. DWBH, Your observations on forehead boy are accurate. It is also interesting to me to note the interplay and little power plays going on in the Trustees themselves. How does that bode for the future? De Loser - HQ inbred, little to zero field time R@pp - same - little field experience

Updates added to timeline 1989: On March 8, 1989 martindale and trustees officially declared "independence day at the way" and separated from chris geer. Cool. A couple additions and clarifications to your timeline. Honing in on more accuracy every iteration. :) Shortly after this date martindale sends out a loyalty letter to all active Corps demanding that they state their loyalty of who they stand with. 50% of 17th corps does not return in-residence after their interim year. This was the loyalty purge. 1990/91: martindale continues vehement opposition to geer and splinter group defectors. He teaches from Galatians....a two-tape series known as Galatians I and II, but later titled Leadership Tapes I & II. First released to corps, then all adv class grads. Later--if attending adv class, these were required prerequisites. Advanced Class Specials were held in Indianapolis [1990 & 91].....short drive for hq-personnel and support from Rome City & Indianapolis corps. The Advanced Class Specials I remember were definitely preparations for filming the live DTA class. Why am I thinking that one of those was not in Indianapolis but in Dallas for GWIB that year? At any rate one of the live audience films was used for a class until the final DTA class production. As with every new class coming out, Corps is required to take first with mandatory participation and "old wineskin" purges for any not 100% gung ho. The DTA class was filmed with new production cameras at HQ in the auditorium in 1992. There was a live audience for this, but they were all silent. It was too hard for Loytoy to teach to a camera with no audience at that point. He overcame the need for a live audience filming the WAP class - there was no audience for that. 1992/93: Martindale taught live adv class at rome city.....mandatory requirement for all active corps and adv class grads to attend. This was a purge. Martindale was stepping forward to purge the old advanced class grads (wierwille allegiance) from the ranks. New syllabus, new nametag. New, improved Twi II. Rise and Expansion book was released in '93 and martindale was gaining confidence, once again. By the fall of 1993 (or Feb/Mar 1994).....all limb coordinators were to teach an R&E weekend (fri/sat/sun) seminar in their respective limbs. 1994/95: A series of purges, like waves slapping the rocky shores of an inlet bay........1) new adv class purge, 2) debt purge, 3) homo purge, 4) word over world purge, 5) full-time corps purge, 6) into the promised land purge, 7) wap class purge, 8) etc. Before the full-blown "1995 roa homo infiltration proclamation".....several corps and staff were caught "in the act" in homosexual relations: girl/girl and guy/guy. On corps nights, martindale called out these corps/staff and trashed their names across the airwaves.....giving them the bum's rush. The 1995 roa was first full-throated, open-exposure of this "whole ministry homo infiltration problem." And, as I've stated earlier....it gave martindale cover to cancel all future rock of ages......when corps went full-time after 1995 roa. May 1994 "Get Out of Debt" Letter in Corps Document Files July 1994 "War on Homosexuals" Letter from martindale July 1994 "Dumping of Spouse Corps" Letter from martindale Link -- Document Files All old twi-music tapes and teaching tapes from defector leaders are anathema. Need to be suspicious of anyone in twi who listens to this stuff and/or harbors attitudes for "old wineskins." Start confronting. If need be, bring 2-3 witnesses. If still unsuccessful, bring them to group confrontation. Purge the old-wineskin nostalgia. 1995: From September-December, these four months seemed like one year. The paper blizzard of faxes, mandates, updates, etc. was cranking up. The trustees and trunk office were totally ill-prepared for the onslaught. When martindale instigated the all-corps full-time policy coupled with wierwille's (illegal) need-basis staff-policy....the paper blizzard had major headwinds. The job description of field corps was not yet written. The trunk personnel were scrambling, caught between martindale pontificating and real-life corps situations. EVERY CORPS ACTION had to examined under the microscope of being a productive/unproductive, necessary/unnecessary, etc......with money, money, money at the basis of ever scrutinizing decision. Bottom line: How much did martindale trust corps leadership to wisely steward twi's funds? This was the birthplace of "Vision and Direction - the Oxymoron". On my list of thread topics to start :) The Way has never trusted Corps leadership with funds. The fund limit approval levels for Petty Cash expenditures were $100 at the Limb level, $300 at the Region level, $500 at the Trunk level, then needs BOT approval. Can't even rent a hall for a meeting without the dummies involved. Unless it's the library or fire station - free. Another way to control expenses - increase the red tape necessary to approve them. The full-time corps revelation....er, experiment [August 1995--October 1998] was a pivotal episode of martindale's tenure. A whole chapter could be written on its implementation, adaptation, regulation, subordination and institutionalization. The pillar that wierwille constructed, the needs-basis policy.....had a MAJOR CRACK going down thru the center of it. On the field, what constitutes a need? Every time a corps person decided to drive his/her car for witnessing.....that was an expense. Extra air conditioning at limb/branch home for meetings/classes.....higher expense. Your teenage kid needs braces......that's a need, right? The list is endless. What all this full-time corps policy exposed was........twi hierarchy was/is a non-factor unless they SUCK OFF THE ABS FOR EVERYTHING. A small minority at headquarters governs,....er, manipulates the followers to separate them year-after-year from their hard-earned money. The spiritual mandates are nothing but a ruse. 1996: Martindale records The Way of Abundance and Power class (WAP).....the foundational class. Red syllabus. Later, a systematic running of these new classes for every active follower. If one didn't take this new class, he was not considered to be involved with twi.....pfal was old wineskin. With every new class, the pattern was: Corps takes it first - they are all full-time anyway so they are tasked with martindale mandates. Limb coordinators run the classes. then they run it for grads. Then they run it for new students. With each running of the class offers the opportunity for more "old wineskin" purging at every level. 1997: Martindale records The Way of Abundance and Power intermediate class. Same pattern....everyone in twi must take it to update status and involvement. Systematically run throughout the usa. 1997 "Gift Policy for Corps" Letter from hq March 1997 "Dangers of Bribery" Letter from martindale September 1997 "Vision and Direction" Policy 1998: Martindale records The Way of Abundance and Power advanced class. The series is complete. Big fanfare and celebration for martindale teaching this series and completing the work. This wap-series is the new standard in twi. Each limb had to structure 4 separate weekends to run this adv class on the field. Major work and involvement......trunk/region/limb. Dress code. Break out groups to absorb info. Class picture. Thank you card sent to martindale. Then, in June at headquarters.......the sexcapade that involved in-residence corps and martindale ensued at the advanced class. Sexual favors at 1998 Adv Class

i just finally caught Leah Remini's first 2 episodes of the Scientology expose. WOW. Great stuff there. One of the things very interesting to me is how the cult invents their own language to increase control. Phrases that sound benign to the public, but carry devastating effects, like hearing Amy's mom say "I don't care if they declare me" with stage 4 cancer. "Declaring" means labeling a person as a "SP" or suppressive person. This means their family will "disconnect" from them. The unspoken expectation. The framing of conversation. It's not what appears out front that is the problem with cults. It is what lies underneath.