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So, although I'm not as public about my story, I also am your huckleberry for info after your stay. 'Da Fog Years - TM. Basically after you left off with your Yak twig stuff, that group kept wandering around like they got hit by a bus for a while. Geer tried to teach some BS on Corps nights about Legalism vs. Grace - some attempt at hypnotic mumbo jumbo about how he was the true ambassador of grace and everybody else has fallen into legalism like the 1st century church. Geer published to books that were by VPW but said "edited posthumously by CG". A real necromancer of a guy. He also was real mean and ADHD so eventually he lost interest tormenting the BOT and flew back to Europe to bring the blessing of his personality back there. Eventually loytoy figured out the fork sticking in his eye was being wiggled from overseas, and gathered cowterd and dingdong out of their combined drooling state, and they basically signed a document telling Geer to f off. Well, it started as a document. Then it turned into a teaching. Then it turned into teaching the book of Galatians. The Galatians tapes. Part 1 and Part 2. Oh my. The drama. The emotion. The discerning of spirits. The number of things orbiting around Geer's head - straight out of a scene from the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland. His face even transfigured itself into Dr. Wierwille once accidentally when reproving loytoy. Oh, and also, this teaching series was the first to feature the "F" word in all parts of speech in a sentence - noun, pronoun, verb, adjective, and adverb. Masterful piece of work there. In the midst of this, what else do we need to have? Purges, of course. The "loyalty" purge. Loytoy sends out a letter to all Corps asking people to respond who they stood with. A popular response was "why God and His Word of course". BZZZT. Wrong answer. People stood "with" the apostle Paul, not just with God and His Word. You are foggy my friend. You probably need to hear the Galatians tapes, which will be running for all believers on the field. Except Adv. Class grads only on Pt. 2 with the unique adjectives. So the "loyalty" purge in various stages consumed about 4/5 of the leadership of the Way - 80% of the Corps left, along with about that many in the ministry. Walter tries to teach Thessalonians on Corps night, or reteach the Univ. of Life Thess actually. It is horrible. A snooze-fest. Loytoy decides since he is all that in a set of tights that he can fire the research department and just teach it all himself. Except he knows jack about research. So he taps Wayne to do it all. He starts teaching Acts - the 8 sections from somewhere. Writes the Rise and Expansion book. Does R & E weekends at Emporia and around the country to try and regain some of the 80% that left. Re-does the Foundational Class. Comes to the premier in I swear to God an identical robe that Hugh Hefner wears in public. New concepts come from all this Acts stuff. Loytoy gets the heavy revelation that the Word is Over the World. Yeah, we have accomplished it. Since the PFAL class has been available in every region of the world since sometime, it has been available for everyone in the world to get the Word. So what's next? Why, "The Prevailing Word" tm - to the world. And of course we don't need WOW's anymore. It's Way Disciple - the disciplined ones. No more going to the Rock and believing God for your money for WOW cutting hair. We're prevailing baby. More later....

TY OldSkool! Another excellent post. Insightful and informative. Having left in 1986, the details of what transpired at NK and the other "root locales", or in the various regions and limbs after then, are known to me only second-hand. So, firsthand, eyewitness reporting such as your's, documenting the years from 1986-2008 is very interesting to me. Donna Lombardi and I spent our 4th corpse interim year in NC. Our very first job, even before going to our assigned areas/jobs, was to run a PFAL Family Camp at Billy Graham's Retreat Center, Christ Mount in Black Mountain, NC. We went there immediately after the ROA in August, 1974. The camp was a film class run in a week as a family camp. David Turk, recent 3rd corpse grad and newly assigned LC, was the class coordinator. I was his assistant. The other 4th corpses, Joel Burke, Charlene Little, Donna Lombardi, and Lori Dubofsky were also on the class team and Pilot Council. Rosalie Fox Rivenbark was a new student in that class. Each new student had a grad "sponsor" who was their official best buddy and undershepherder. Rosalie was a High School English teacher in New Bern, NC. Her sponsor was Miller Harrison, an educator also from New Bern, whose eldest son Stephen, and Stephen's best friend, Jeff Mohn had actually witnessed to their teacher. Both Stephen and Jeff had left to go WOW, and both went into the 6th corpse, graduated, and eventually went on to be Limb and region coordinators. Donna Lombardi had been assigned as the Limb Secretary under David Turk. She would be living at the ECU Way Home which was the Limb HQ for NC. She became attached to Rosie the new student from day one. They were tied at the hip from that camp forward until thus very day. Rosalie not only KNOWS everything about dictor paul's "lay to play" program for his female leadership, she actively and heartily participated. She went into the 2nd FC in August, 1975, exactly one year after she first took piffle. Within a month she had successfully slept and/or fooled around with not only DP himself, but also 2 different 4th corpse guys, one married, the other not, that I know of, because they came to me to brag (one) and repent (the other). As the year progressed Rosie filled the sack of several high-powered TWIt leaders as well as several future Limb and region coordinators. Oh, and then there was da forehead and his fiancée, Donna, Rosie's BFF in 74 already. Once Rosie Fox made it to Crotchaven, she never left. She never ran a class, a twig, a branch, or anything on the field. She took PIFFLE and a year later she moved to NK, Ohio where she's been ever since. Never had another job since leaving NC outside the sugar walls of Zion. Abandoned one son in NC, who never took the class more than once if at all, and she watched quietly and happily while the 14 year old she dragged with her to the FC became a repeat felon who eventually went to prison for attempted murder. Momma Fox disowned him. Jim Shumate was his name. So, for Rosie to say to the lawyers and judges that she knew nothing of any non-consensual serial sexual battery ring that existed at the BOT level, or of any involvement ever by DPW, Howard, or Donnie during the 1999-2000 discovery phase of the Allen case, was blatant perjury. She did it again in the Kaufman case. She's done it a thousand times since, and I don't even know all the crap that transpired during the 90s! Rosie's been a pimp and a whore and a liar since 1975, that I KNOW OF. And, I only know what dirty deeds she was involved in until 1986! So whatever Rosie and Donna have on Yves de liar is surely enough to keep him under their thumbnails until they die or he leaves. Never having met the man, I know already that if the girls picked him then he's a pimp and a whore and a liar as well. TY again OkdSkool for posting your insight and info. It does make a difference! Even to an old cop-out line me!.................peace.

When I was way corps I had the notion that I could change the way international from within. I had way corps friends that figured that once rosalie died off they would be in a position to change the way international. I've come to realize that I was as deluded as my friends and anyone else who thinks they can step in and change twi for the better. God does not need the way international, God did not send Victor Paul wierwille to start the way international, Craig martindale followed vpw example and got the way international brought up on RICO (and other) charges via a lawsuit. Yes, that's right, the way international was, is, and will always be a corrupt organization. Change twi? Anyone with the idea that they can change it from within is deluded. Why? Because Rosalie, Donna Martindale, and their ilk has changed the way international from within. They have managed to bring about a thin veneer of legitimacy by whitewashing Victor Paul wierwille from a drunken plagarizing sex predator con man to a great man of god. Rosalie has set leadership in place that will stay the course of the direction forced on twi by their lawyers during the Allen lawsuit. Jean Yves DeLisle is the tip of the iceburg. Anyone with half a backbone has been purged, reassigned where they can do no harm to the current agenda, or quit walking away with some semblance of integrity. A few post here, telling what they witnessed. The Way international is a corrupt organization and a cult. In spite of the lie that the board of directors works together with a separate group of appointed officers, two people made all the major decisions. Twi was run by rosalie rivenbark and donna martindale. Hands down. I started out as a young follower of the way international who would have believed anything, and done anything the way international told me. Four years after joining the ranks, I found myself as candidate way corps in Baton Rouge LA. This was my first real exposure to the evil practices of those who run the way international. It was during this time the Allen lawsuit forced Craig martindale to admit that him and F3rn All3n had a "consensual" affair. I should have ran right then. I didnt, I thought the Adversary was mounting yet another attack on the man of god, and God's ministry. I was wrong. During the next eight years I found myself constantly in positions to witness first hand the way international's massive cover up in response to being brought up on RICO, and other charges. It would be interesting to put together a loose time line on the rise, fall and cover up of twi. Assuming I haven't overlooked one. I'll type more later, me n my fiancee are about to enjoy a night on the town. Enuff twi for me atm ;)

Times are a bit strange. Corps assignments are with supposed headcount that isn't there - everybody has scattered. 20% remain. Acts teachings turn into a new Rise and Expansion class. Things are good for loytoy. teaching, traveling on a motorcoach across the country. unbeknownst to us at the time, these elements also add up to something similar to a reality TV re-run of Brett Michaels + a bunch of girls on a bus. Don't think the Drambouie plus rufees is in play here - loytoy is loosening himself up to be the man of god his fodder in the verd brought him up to be in a different fashion. No, instead of rufees , we have "..... a procuress.......". what pray tell is a procuress? never heard of it. well, later we find out this is some kind of legal term for a lady who after having an extended adulterous affair with loytoy, resulting in her husband killing himself after being heard saying "I can't compete with that", goes on to bring in many other ladies into this menagerie of adulterous action. the best of times. the worst of times. all depending on who you were and what you were allowed to see.

You're right, there is no difference. Same dead tree, same rotted roots. Any differences are trivial in my experiences. Example: Under LCM it was envogue to be as nasty as you could towards those who caused waves. Under RosaLIE folks are so loving and syrupy sweet. At least at first, then the fangs come out. Same evil, different trappings. My perspective anyway.

I think it was a general brainwashed state not to "think evil" of leadership, reinforced by Lil Napolean behavior and retemories. don't look over here behind the curtain, what you see isn't what it is. it doesn't register in your brain. that's without anyone else even telling you anything. then if anyone would say anything remotely negative, many zealots are around to gaslight. I honestly don't see a great deal of difference in that type of behavior pre or post 1985

TLC.....most always, you speak in such generalities that it is hard to understand your point. When I post, I endeavor to detail the FACTS and REASONS why I hold these opinions and viewpoints. For sure, I saw red flags in 1978 and the years to follow ---- while in-residence at Emporia Campus. The fawning adulation (idolatry) of wierwille's arrival on campus was only the appetizer. His arrogance, demeanor, and manipulation of scripture on corps night was served to us over and over again. And, those character-assassination, smearing, over-the-top-trashing of clergy/corps who were exiting sent those red flags flying high! I swear, I almost left 5 or 6 times......but kept telling myself that "wierwille was a spiritual man, I was a novice." Add to this: 1978----my limb coordinator, Rev. John Cl-ay (4th corps) was exiting twi prior to the roa. And, when I got to the Advanced Class, I was chosen as a Branch Leader.....and our first meeting was with wierwille and martindale at 4pm in the fireplace room. At this meeting, wierwille was STILL livid with the three 8th corps guys who'd gone "rogue" on their research project....and why wierwille felt the need to unload this sheetstorm on us was perplexing. Add: 1) My meeting with Steve Sa-nn (4th corps).....and he was openly displeased with wierwille and twi. 2) Mike Sm!th, (1st corps) my department coordinator expressed his plans to head to Alaska (1981)....and in so many words, remove himself from any more corps assignments. 3) Lonn3l Johns0n, (5th corps) was moving towards masters/doctorate work. 4) John Ra-ce, Ambassador One pilot......split from wierwille and hq without hardly a goodby. 5) Christ0ph St0pe (5th corps) seemed to abruptly leave the research dept. Etc. etc. I stayed because, perhaps, the next president could fix the problems. Then....quickly came the "fog years." Then.....the purges. Alas, it never got fixed. Not even addressed properly. Now....at GSC, the posters are nailing it to TWI's Doors (pound, pound, pound) !!! Perhaps, I never came face-to-face with "the roadkill".......but I could sure smell the stench of it at the corner of Shelby County Rd and Wierwille Rd. So, no......I was NOT blindsided by twi's demise and internal unraveling. The red flags were flying everywhere. .

I think when some of us caught glimpses of what we thought might be going on, we were subsequently gas-lighted. ("You must be possessed to even entertain such possibilities. Renew your mind.")

so fog. purges. yeah. In response to "who do you stand with" this opens up the door for new sycophants. some of these respond to this letter in dramatic fashion. one little napolean, we can call him panasmello - hops a plane and shows up to personally prostrate himself at the feet of Men in Tights loytoy to say "you - I stand with you". Presto chango - tadaa - we now have a new Trunk coordinator. And a particularly sycophantic one too - responsible for the 250 mile radius travel edict forcing people in that radius to drive in for the STS. Not only that but his personal boxing sh1zzzle and workout equipment takes up an entire aisle in the warehouse building. That also starts the rise of Rupp to leadership - another one of loytoys boys. And Rico, not the charge, the guy. We need lots of air time of Athletes during this time. Children's fellowship, viewings, the popularity is coming back. To those who thought that at some point they might be able to "unsee" some images in their mind, sadly they are mistaken.

yes DWBH//I already re-posted it in doctrinal as I' m new here & figured thats how its done..k??? Thanks for the warning & hope u can take an hour & look this stuff over..its quite doable k? JJ

So things cruise along like such for a while, chicks on a bus, cabin 12 rockin', Acts, R& E. Word in Business too. loytoy becoming more and more "free" unopposed. i mean the names on the list of conquests we learn later are climbing pretty steadily. this isn't a 60 yr old man with waning libido here we are talking about. This is "Men in Tights" tm in all of his virile glory. his peers are off doing all the work to found their VP based ministries so are pretty quiet. loyalty purges are mostly over. What would change this next? 1. The Word Going Over The World 2. Sex

It's all good Rocky - I'll check out those books when I get a chance.

This might be a good place to mention that for me, the lifting of (waybrain) fog happened with years of self-reflection while working on developing critical thinking and analysis skills including working during the mid-1980s on a degree in accounting (focus on accountability) and in the early 1990s learning to (begin) being honest with myself with insights in M. Scott Peck's books, (first one I read was People of the Lie, followed by The Road Less Traveled). I apologize for going off on a tangent.

Winning through Intimidation (1984) by Robert J Ringer I remember this book from 32 years ago. I wonder how many TWI clergy read and embraced the notion.

Omg, that's how that pathetic worm rose to prominence? Rupp called me to his office one sunny morning during an advanced class at hq. I was accused of not being on top of my spiritual responsibilities. He decided to try the intimidation route and yelled at me up one side and down the other. in order to avoid kicking the crap outta him on the spot, I excused myself. I drove out to a remote part of twi's property where I consulted with my ex-wife, and a couple close friends. I calmed down quite a bit. I called Rupp back and requested a meeting, he accepted. After going back to his office I let him know to never raise his voice to me or talk to me in such a disrespectful manner, in no uncertain terms. I was not nice and neither did I speak in a quiet tone. The worm was afraid and it showed in his eyes and body language. Once they lose their edge intimidating those they try to control, they have nothing left.

Not that my experiences in the way international are the end all be all cuz they arent. it's just mind boggling in some respects to look back over my relatively short time involved with twi and realize the corruption and cover up I witnessed. Great posts guys, very informative.

Thanks, OldSkool. I would love to have an off-line conversation with you. If you want to, send me a message through my Contact page. Cheers and thank you for adding your presence to this place!

Thank you so much. This is fantastic!

Is it wrong that i just want to see Raf say "batcrap insane" again on this thread?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._Lake Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that John G Lake was a liar on a grand scale who made grandiose claims about his education and his connections. "He later claimed that he maintained relationships with many of the leading figures of his day including railroad tycoon James Jerome Hill, Cecil Rhodes, Mahatma Gandhi, Arthur Conan Doyle, and others." "When he began his preaching career he claimed to have walked away from a $50,000 year salary (around $1.25 million in 2007 US dollars[15]), as well as his seat on the Chicago Board of Trade. Lake's biographer, Burpeau, reported no evidence outside of Lake's own assertions that Lake was connected to these wealthy financiers and industrialists.[6] According to Morton, contemporary records show Lake never left Zion City at the time Lake was said to be making his name in Chicago; he instead worked in nearby Waukegan as an "ordinary, small-town insurance salesman". So, any claims that he actually produced healings should be highly suspect- since he's a proven, chronic liar. I'll have to look into this Curry Blake guy separately. However, so far, I do indeed SEE parallels with twi- both groups were founded by chronic liars with grandiose egos.

I doubt John will ever break his silence. When I knew him he was trying to get other business ventures going while on staff. MonaVie, real estate sales are two off the top of my head. Basically, he allowed himself to get institutionalized and had little to no options to make it financially without twi. I haven't talked to him in 8 years, but reported to him when I was a department coordinator and we remained friends when I was cabinet. I know some of his checkered past, but really have no ill feelings towards him. He did the best he could for me when I was being harassed by rosalie via john rupp. What he knows could no doubt sink twi. At the time I knew him he believed in TWI but didn't agree with rosalie very often. He stood his ground when he needed to, but still did as asked. I really have nothing negative to say about him, but I seldom do about anyone. I am like chockfull, I post here for my own therapy, and to tell the truth about what I was exposed to while in the way international, as boring as that may be.

yeah, DWBH I hear you on that. So many of those to draw an analogy with the Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith" continued on trying to work in "aluminum siding" in to their pitch for false deliverance, rather than getting on their knees and confessing their sins and fixing their own hearts. We certainly have over-abundant evidence of that. There may be some that prefer to seek their deliverance outside of these kinds of discussion forums and public acknowledgements. I know my spouse is one. Can't stand GS discussions. Would probably throw sh1t at me if I persisted in an ongoing discussion about it. But down deep completely agrees. I try to lend my typing hands a bit the best I can and have for a number of years, partially out of my own therapy and partially out of a little sense of responsibility towards the younger generation. I can't get all enflamed about that either though and make that my post-cult cult. The milennials are going to have to save themselves. I can throw a couple shovels full of dirt to help fill in a hole, but my days taking on a free second job for virtuous motives are behind me. Have to save up energy for my job in retirement. ;)

Angels of music.......