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Looking back at my early days of posting here, people probably thought that I was rude, too. Hell, I came here looking for a replacement PFAL book so I could lend it to people I was witnessing to. Imagine what people must have thought of that request!

Seniority doesn't confer privileges here. Manners do. Tact does. You are lacking in both. Stop getting mad at us for pointing it out and start accepting responsibility for the tone you are setting. The problem is not everyone else. You're rude. A diverse group of people who are accustomed to disagreeing with each other on a variety of issues are all quickly reaching the same conclusion. That's not an accident

If you think there is something of particular interest, why not post that section in Doctrinal and invite comments?Don't slam anyone who points out where it is apparently incorrect or inappropriate or doesn't keep some other principle in mind. You might even find some who find that your chosen passage is "new light." If you want to learn, to discuss, to make enquiry, then keep your own mind open to change. Most of us, however, have had enough of people who dissect the Bible and point out minutiae of supposed word meanings, without there being some resulting actions (ie, it's not enough to know a dozen words for being kind or compassionate, if ultimately there is no kindness or compassion in the way you treat people).

MRAP, respectfully, it's a tad condescending to come onto a board where you don't know people and assume you know more about our journeys than you do. Is it hard for us to look beyond ourselves...? What a backhanded insult! (Yes it is). Can we see something new in the word? Gee, none of us ever thought of that until you came along! You came here expecting us to be something and, upon learning we are not what you expected, you have done nothing but berate us for not fitting the mold you presumed for us. Well, sorry to disappoint you. Nonetheless, if you actually want to talk about the things you say you want to discuss, some of us would be more than happy to approach your questions from a variety of perspectives. And if you don't like our approaches, please bear this in mind: we didn't ask you. We think for ourselves around here. We don't get pushed around by military, police, reverends, fathers, brothers, elders, imams, yogis or booboos.

Hi Watered Garden. I have found your previous posts very insightful. But do you mean that your relationship with him is ruined now? I thought from a previous post, all was forgiven between you. I hope that's the case. You seem like such a wonderful parent to me, and he a wonderful son. I like that your son fought against them while you were in the family corps. I think he did you all a favor by acting out. It sounds like he could see through all the bs that was going on. He is a treasure that you found. Those leaders in the family Corps were so inept to deal with a child that they tried to cover up their stupidity by telling you to get rid of him. What a bunch of cowards and idiots. I'm glad you adopted him and stuck by him. Do you ever wish you could tell those morons off? God bless you WG. I think the Qualtieri family had it all together. I still think of things I learned from them. But from a post from Peter's daughter-he was treated terribly on his death bed. He didn't deserve that.

Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... because it will make you feel better...it is required..if you don`t forgive, you are a big selfish meanie bu tt. Isn`t that what you guys are saying that you require of me?? God said that when we repent (this seems to be required) and ask...he is faithfull and just to forgive us.... If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.

There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize" theme comes up periodically around here. Personally, I think it gives too much power (in the potential forgiver's mind and heart) to the ones who have committed the wrongs. It puts the forgiver in the position of being dependent on the wrongdoer for the cue to act. No way do I want to rely on someone who has wronged me to determine in my own heart what to do. I want my actions to be entirely independent of theirs. Otherwise it seems to me like they still have too much importance in my life. The current president of twi lied to me, manipulated situations affecting me and my future, and then trashed my reputation. I don't much like her, but if I forgive someone, that doesn't mean I have to like that person. It doesn't mean that I have to spend any time around that person. It certainly doesn't mean I have to lie down like a bath mat and let him or her walk on me one more time. T-Bone makes great distinctions between forgiveness and restoration, etc. Waiting for an apology is, IMO, like taking too much luggage on a trip. After you've lugged it around the airport awhile, it gets heavier and more annoying. Then when you get to your destination, you discover that you didn't really need that extra dozen pairs of socks anyway and when you get ready to go home, you just have to pack that extra bag again and haul it around some more. I think perhaps the reason God tells us to repent when seeking His forgiveness is because it's something we need to do to get our own heads right, not because he "has hurt feelings" and wants us to apologize before He'll forgive us. So the twi people who wronged me are the ones who would benefit from repenting, not me. I'm free to forgive or not forgive them regardless of what they do. Forgiveness doesn't erase the past. It just helps us stop dragging the past around like a boulder.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Don't Worry Be Happy!...I agree with the sentiment in your posts. When it comes to Christians dealing with one another over offenses - I think some folks forget about Jesus' words on another important aspect of the whole process: Matthew 18:15-17 NIV 15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I look at forgiveness as only one step in the whole process of reconciliation. Isn't reconciliation the ultimate goal when talking about forgiveness? At least in Christian circles. Isn't that how God works? The Holy Spirit convicts someone of sin. Then God wants the person to acknowledge their sin [admit their guilt] as the first step toward reconciliation to Him. The sinner realizes the enormity of their offense - and seeking forgiveness - is drawn to the most logical place...the Cross of Christ!... God desires to forgive - the sinner craves to be forgiven...And both sides [yes, even the sinner to some degree] are aware of what it took to get the "negotiations" thus far. In reference to TWI-leadership offenses - the reconciliation process [brother-to-brother] is stymied by the offending party's refusal to admit an offense has been made. I think it is unbiblical to demand forgiveness in a situation where the other aspects that relate to the reconciliation process are sorely neglected. As far as the offended party actually forgiving the offender anyway – I think in some unspoken way that may happen a lot more than we realize – just as a matter of releasing ourselves from the bonds of anger, resentment, hatred, etc. I wonder if sometimes we mistake this longing for reconciliation as being unforgiving.