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Aw. sure you do. :) George

I don't know where the "life of it's own" test came from. I don't see it in the Bible. I don't think you can prove the "all life is spirit" claim, upon which this is based. Minus five points for using the word "axiomatically." That went out with PFAL. Sorry. How could one even begin to prove such a thing? "Revelation" right? Sure, any thing is possible, that's about as far as we can go. It had tons of value to Wierwille. It gave him the appearance of being a man of great spiritual insight. It gave followers a sense that they were privy to some insider knowledge, causing them to value Wierwille and his ministry more. It lead to an unhealthy fixation that devil spirits were around every corner (perhaps even causing this headache I have right now) which in my view put people in a fearful and compliant state of mind. Don't disagree with The Way or you could be opening yourself to spirit possession. I agree little or no value to the individual (I think this is what you meant), but plenty of value those who would exercise control.

I try to keep this "devil spirits cause" subject simple for myself. 1st, how many devil spirits can there be? 1 giant cancer causing "spirit",or millions of cancer causing "spirits", because there are so many people that have cancer around the world. I apply the same logic to any "sickness" I've heard people say are caused by "spirits". Arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, the list goes on. Again, how many "spirits" could there possibly be out there? Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to hammer my logic. 😎

And, FWIW, I was a dyed in the wool TWIt, hadn't been satisfied with any church, boring; here was someone who knew some Bible!! And I went through WC training and did all the rubbish things like alienating my family and friends (or rather, alienating myself) blah blah, finally got thrown out. Which though devastating at the time turned out to be a real blessing. Don't know when I would have left otherwise. Probably have ended up being ... I won't speculate, but a lot of women were abused and someone had been having a go at me, "softening me up." It was awful. Awful. I was depressed for about 10 years. Near suicidal. But now - I make lemonade from it. I thought I had compassion before. Maybe... but nothing like now. I didn't understand abused women, and how they kept returning to abusing partners. I do now. I didn't understand a lot of things... I do now. I've not "changed" to become a different person. I've changed to become freer to become ME.

Excellent post, Penworks. It seems to me that not only can we change as we grow older, but that we should change. When one is 5 years old, parents and other adults give information and instructions. As one ages, that information and instruction may change. And as the information and instruction changes, it ought to change the shape of each individual. The five year old gains understanding and wisdom. Becomes able to make its own decisions, give itself "instructions." That growing and ability to make decisions is called maturity but does it have a finite point? We know only in part - and that will remain so all our lives. And so we are never fully mature, all our lives. Just more mature than we were a few years earlier (perhaps). Do you still believe and act as you did when you were five years old? Few adults do. If you went to tertiary education or professional training, do you still think the same as you did before? Or do you have more wisdom to make decisions? Are you better able to foresee possible outcomes? Yes, you changed! You don't think as you did, when you were a child. Have crises affected your life - maybe the death of a loved one with whom you'd been very close? Maybe a severe accident (they're not called "life-changing injuries" for nothing!)? Yes, you changed! You learned to adapt to the new circumstances. Your underlying personality probably never changes; it's how you express that personality. And what you take into account. What you allow to affect you. How you deal with things. We are not set in stone. We are not required to have hearts of stone - in fact, quite the opposite. We are required to change - to be transformed - to become different people. And yet, remain true to ourselves. And to our God (if we have one!). We should embrace the opportunity to grow and change. It's exciting.

Is that a request for clarification? ;) Thanks for refocusing the discussion. :)

He said, you assumed, he said, you implied......and the topic is dragged into Johniam's backyard. ppffftt. This topic.... Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps and subtitle.. VPW's letters reveal his twisted thinking For me, these letters validate wierwille's manipulative, deceptive and guilt techniques to keep the corps' allegiance. How many times does he lament those who are leaving the fold? How does wierwille not realize that corps NEED to pay their bills? develop careers? help their spouse and/or children? Gawd, these letters just sound like he's writing letters in a time-capsule.....to corps who go forth to witness, build the ministry and work at a fast-food joint. You know, you've "got the word" and money will be put on your doorstep every Friday to pay the bills. YET......wierwille was on Church Payroll UNTIL AUGUST 7, 1957. After he and dorothy eloped, and she kept working while he finished seminary.....wierwille quickly went on church payroll with parsonage package for 16 years as they took on their first menial congregation in Payne, Ohio and then, in Van Wert. These letters are like robo-donate-your-time-and-resources TO BUILD THE VP-MINISTRY. No thought, no empathy for the needs of the corps......just a series of guilt tactics. This compilation of letters give insight to all non-corps "the wierwille mystique" that was vaunted by staffers, corps and insiders. You want to know the deeper secrets that wierwille is teaching the corps......then, you've got to GO CORPS. pppfffftt. And, here I got a front row seat in one of wierwille's private meetings BEFORE going in-residence and wierwille stated unequivocally that these three 8th corps men "had devil spirits." Same ole, same ole generic slanderings that wierwille used when leaders over and over again.... yet when did wierwille ever actually encounter or cast out a devil spirit?

Thank you JayDee and Chockfull. I'm thankful that the info I have posted here at GSC has helped you spot the haters, liars, and thieves, many of who continue this perverted cult in their own "way ministries" of various names and all founded on the "great truths" dictor paul inveigled into their very identities. I'm glad for every single person who reads what I've written about TWIt-n-vic and sees it is factually accurate and puts the pieces of TWIt-n-Vic's pathological impact upon all who were exposed. That is the most rewarding thing for me. Thank you both for your encouragement. Enjoy your freedom, and........peace.

You've met angels??? Awesome!