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Came across this in a college class I'm taking now and it reminded me of my own past inclination to minimize Wierwille's plagiarism. http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism Yeah it's a real problem. It's fraud. It's lying. It's nothing to build your ministry on. Unless of course you are a fraud. In which case, carry on.

It's nothing more than my own curiosity, Raf, but did you at any time in the past know or believe or think (I'm not exactly sure how you might see it) that Jesus Christ was a real person that died, and after 3 days rose from the dead to live forever? And if so, do you know (and/or can you say) why you did?

:offtopic:/> Sunesis, how nice to see you here again after a very long absence.

Hi Raf! Well, first off, I'm back after a rather long absence. Thank you for your candor and honesty about confessing to becoming an atheist. While I do believe in the existance of the higher power, commonly called "God", I do not believe God is a person that either needs or demands worship, as if he were an egomaniac (I do understand the personification of God however). I would fall to about #3 on your scale between 1 and 7 (Basically a deist). However, while I do believe in an afterlife, I don't know exactly what it's going to be like. As many of you know, I have embraced Christian Universalism for over 10 years now (That is the belief that everyone will be reconciled to God someday). Currently, I'm considering, that even if there is a higher dimension in the afterlife, there will be no post-mortem judgment of any kind (If I may quote scripture here, it says that "He who is dead is free from sin" [Romans 6:7].) That being said, why would there be a need for such a judgment if we have in fact been freed from sin? The only other possibility is that we return to earth with a new and different identity (known as "reincarnation"). I was asked by my pastor last year what I expect when I die. I repsonded that I don't know, since I do believe that my human mind will cease upon my death. My human mind cannot fathom what a spiritual mind is like. Raf, I know that when you were a Christian, we had our differences on what a Christian is. Of course we have dialogued quite often at Facebook and have had some of the best conversations ever. Oh yes, and when I do see you in Heaven there WON'T be any 'splaining to do! Not from you, not from me, nor anyone else! :)

I spent a lot of years observing the ordained clergy in TWI and knowing many of them personally. I can understand why VP ordained the early 1-5 corps people - he was growing an organization and needed to have trusted leaders who would carry out his wishes. He needed a structure he could work with on the "field." That said, many of them were nice people but - looking back, I saw very few "gift ministries" at work. Although I will say, I do believe Steve Heefner, Jim Dopp, Donnie Fugit and a few others did have true, Godly ministries. I'm sure there were others but I did not personally know them. In fact in the years after that, during my time in the corps and on staff, there was only one person that I believed God showed me that they had a ministry and what it was - and she was a female who was never ordained by TWI. And I didn't tell her until 20 years later. As the ministry grew and the corps grew there were many people that quite frankly, I wondered how these some of these guys were getting ordained. As I would speak to later corps men, 10th, 11th and 12th, it seemed that ordination had evolved to become a carrot on a stick - it was what the men all aspired to, it was a huge motivator that VP used. It was the highest pinnacle of success in TWI. You had arrived. I cannot tell you how many men told me they were going to run class after class on the field and get their ordination. Well alrighty then... As I've thought about it over the years, there were very few of the "top" men who reached my heart in a spiritual way and affected true Godly change in my heart during their teachings - maybe I was just hard-hearted. But in the later years for me there were two. One was a 6th corps man and the other had been ordained when he had been a mainstream denominational minister. Other than that, some teachers were comedians, some full of fury, some boring, and ocassionally someone would be truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and reach people's hearts - they were the exception. It was human nature though to try and observe what ministry someone might have had - after all, if VP ordained them they must have had something. But over the years, I saw they didn't. In fact, they way I saw it was this: 1. Apostle - reserved for VP and VP alone. No one other than him had this one. 2. Prophet - this was a highly sought after ministry. Many rude, nasty guys had this one - because, after all, as VP taught, prophets were hard to live with and didn't take guff from anyone. 3. Evangelist - if you were good at running lots of classes on the field, you had this one. 4. Teacher - a lot of people thought they had this one, but really, it was mostly reserved for the research dept. or a couple of other revs who had a reputation. 5. Pastor. This one applied mostly the female reverends. They would spend time, talk, "counsel" and just have those healing one-on-ones with hugs. Its was the girls' ministry. I think though, if you did make that commitment and choose to be ordained, you were TWI's for life. It was a huge commitment. I had a person come to me who had his limb leader extend the invitation to be ordained at the upcoming corps week. I told him to think carefully. He was running an area and was trying to get a career going. I told him it was an honor - but - if he accepted to forget his career - it was obvious TWI leadership had other plans for his life. He would have to give up his career. If he got ordained and later decided to still give his secular career a shot he would be ostracized and have to live with the knowledge and guilt that he was "copped out." Could he live with that? He declined the offer. All in all, I don't think anyone ordained by VP, who I believe now was a wolf in sheeps clothing, has any business calling themselves "Reverend."

Why does ANYONE care what Raf believes? Why does anyone care what johniam believes? Bottom line, Raf came to change his beliefs and shared what that means to him and how he reasoned it out. Nobody else's beliefs are jeopardized by a person doing that, are they?

That says it all and it is as it should be. We are all individuals. All our journeys are personal and our own. It does not diminish my opinion of you nor would it cause me to lose respect. You do still have to obey your AP style book, though. :)/>