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Raf, thank you for mentioning the scripture John 11:26 to look up and research. I have very good bible study software, which makes biblical studies not difficult for me. Now onto more difficult work related stuff for me.

I looked up John 11:26 using my biblical software. The word for age which is Strong's number 165 is part of John 11:26. For biblical versions to leave this Greek word "Aion" out of this verse shows a lack of understanding by the translators. Here is a more literal biblical version, which may not be clearly written, but at least places this Greek word in this verse. John 11:26- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age; Here is a link to an article that I have written pertaining to the New Testament Greek word for age. Greek words literally used right next to "age" Strong's number 1519, means "of a place entered, or of entrance into a place, into" and another Greek word which is translated "the, this, that, one, he, she, it, it, etc." which is Strong's number 3588. The definitions for these Greek words are from the Thayer's Greek Lexicon. From the actual Greek words used in this verse and my detailed study of the Greek words for "Age" as used in the New Testament with link above. This translation is more accurate. verse. 26 "and whoever lives and believes in me will not ever die in the Age to come. Do you believe this?” And stated again. The translation of three Greek words as seen in John 11:26 using the Strong's numbering system, with definitions above is in this order, "1519", "3588", "165". To then only translate this as the English "Never" shows a lack of understanding and perhaps also doctrinal bias.

Tee hee. He thinks he's the first pro-TWI voice on GSC. Tee hee hee. Ok, some history: MANY posters are QUITE pro-TWI in terms of doctrine and appreciation for Wierwille and the things he taught. We are quite capable of distinguishing between what he actually taught and how he lived. Even when we accuse him of plagiarism (of which he was TOTALLY guilty, by the way), that is never presented to discredit the doctrine itself. So what if Kenyon said it first, largely in the exact same words? Was it true? Or at least, was it Biblically accurate? So no, you don't get piled on for defending TWI. You get piled on for excusing abuse. You get piled on for idolizing a selfish opportunist who feasted on our love for God to satisfy his lust for money, women and power. But you don't get piled on for accepting Jesus Christ is Not God. You don't get piled on for distinguishing between Holy Spirit and holy spirit. You don't get piled on for praying or for giving or for believing in the rapture/gathering together. "Stick together in your anti-TWI rhetoric"? But we don't. Each of us draws a line, and I would venture to say that no two people draw the line in exactly the same way. "Plan to exclude said individual"? Not one person, not one, has criticized you for a view you've expressed. Not one. Every criticism leveled at you has been about how you are addressing us. It is, as I said elsewhere, a tad condescending. Perhaps you don't see it that way. Well, that's why we're pointing it out to you. Excommunicated? No way! Where would this site be without people like Oldiesman, Johniam and others who are unafraid to stand up for what they believe in? They're not excluded in the slightest. I'll admit, most people who are defenders of some parts of TWI are long gone from the GSC. But that's to be expected: Most posters are long gone from the GSC. Very few remain. We have, as stated elsewhere, moved on. I stick around for three reasons: 1. I'm a moderator, and there's not a lot of us who keep checking up on the place. 2. I have recently "come out" as atheist, and I find value in exploring/defending that position with people who knew me as a believer. And 3. The game threads are nifty and fun. You're not getting excommunicated unless you get abusive. You have not been. Far from it. I think any missteps you've made are easily the result of enthusiastically trying to introduce yourself to a group whose dynamics you do not know very well. Personally, I think you're the most interesting thing to happen to this forum in a long time. I'm glad you stopped by, glad you figured out how to find me, and glad you're posting. Sir!

MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first question directed towards leadership. They had nothing. They were kept poor and many times underfed. They came here shattered. Many have PTSD. This is their place to vent and be protected. You are like me: Not in for too long and not deeply involved. I sincerely have no point of reference when it comes to what they went through. I found my fringe involvement confining and appalling enough. I don't get how they did it, much less why. Your military training, by and large, protects you from personalizing. The corp trained received a sort of military training that tore people down and built them into non-thinking non-individuals.There was no outside point of reference that was accepted as a viable standard for living. When some of these people were kicked out, it would be similar to a court martial and simply leaving them on the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Unfortunately, in many instances, outside family relations had been damaged. Family who remained were not allowed to interact with those who left. They were devastated. They came here. Many have managed to pull themselves together. Some more quickly and thoroughly than others. There is no time table. There are very few TWI or splinter apologists here. Some swoop in hoping to latch onto a few who pine for the old days. Some just like to debate doctrine. A fair number finally figure out that everything they once held dear is nothing more than vomit. Most eventually lose the lingo. Some eventually develop some actual critical thinking skills. But in every case it is a process. People want you to respect that process, even if you don't think you need it.

"I would ask you this question: when does a click become a cult?" This is an excellent question. I suppose the easiest answer would be that a clique becomes a cult when it starts to meet the defining criteria. (ie: charismatic leader, insider jargon, special/privileged knowledge, etc.) In my opinion, it starts to become a cult when it governs your life on a moment by moment basis. I think this is something that is sometimes hard to understand if your involvement with The Way never went beyond the local level. At the local level, you can go to twig fellowship, put on the believer face, do the mannies, drink a little stretched coffee (from a reused styro cup) and go back home in a couple hours to be the real you once again. In contrast, when you're in one of the "training programs" (I was in FellowLaborers of Ohio.), there is no going home. You ARE home, on stage, 24/7. Every moment of every day is consumed with a struggle to (as the actors say) stay in character. You're not really "you". One day, you look in the mirror and wonder who you're really looking at and how you got there. I think, at that point, you start to wonder if you're living some kind of surrealistic existence. You realize your clique is now a cult. It's not one of the happier realizations a person experiences in life.

I dunno, I don't think calling Waysider "Kermit" is that big of a deal. If Waysider has a problem with it he's a big boy, he can speak for himself. Besides, Kermit is kind of a nice frog isn't he?