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BTW, for an event that supposedly was the second most important day in his life, he can't keep the simplest detail straight. The account in TWLIL said the sky was suddenly in a WHITEOUT condition. The other account before the book (Mrs W documented it in her book) has him saying the sky was BLACK with snow. Surely, for a significant day, if the sky is filled, you can remember if it's all white or all black... unless you made the whole thing up. Significant moments for me as a Christian- I can often recite the MINOR details decades later.

"....... one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille." HERE it is.

you know, the guy you talked to doesn't have that different of a story than I do. I never heard one inkling of sexual indiscretions or what went on in the "initiated" circles up until Martindale's first lawsuit. why? maybe because people hide inappropriate behavior? hmmm. even then I toed the party line and rationalized it away. however, over time, more and more things started to not add up. Martindale, in the "VP and Me" teachings that were taught in the Corps, talked about how VP had told him he needs to "loosen up" in the sexual areas if he ever wanted to be an effective minister. I listed to Ralph Dubovsky's sharing (which is still available to hear on Greasespot Radio), where he told truths about the patriarch days and the "yak twig" consisting of all of the BOD, where it was open knowledge that some women were passed around that circle for sex. I personally talked with a couple of Wierwille's grandchildren and learned that growing up they were raised with the teaching that men would run around on their spouses. I read Kristen Skedgell's book "Losing the Way". Martindale learned his behavior. He was the perfect imitator, which was why he succeeded the presidency - Wierwille said that publicly many times. Martindale learned to be a sexual predator. Also, VP would prey upon young women who he knew had sexual abuse in their backgrounds. It was quite obvious he viewed himself as their savior and thought that having sex with him was supposed to heal them. this was a delusional vision of VP that caused acts furthering the adversary's motives. oh, another point of logic. VP was married back in his college days. this is documented in Mrs. W's book "Born Again to Serve". the hippie days in the '70's were long after that. VP already had 5 children by that point. so no, sexual relations he had in the 70's in the "free love" movement were adultery according to the Bible. Oh, and now that we're talking about adultery, one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille. so the picture starts to emerge of a megalomaniac who sins and destroys anyone who confronts him on it. with your friend it certainly is a common knee-jerk reaction when people present uncomfortable truths to react by saying they work for the adversary. i don't post here out of a love for the adversary. in contrast, i post here to keep people from being sucked into a damaging cult and waste years of their lives building on a false organization. Paul said you cannot build a foundation except upon Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone. well, all this hidden sin, predation, and garbage is not a foundation you can build upon. you can't put new wine into old wineskins. neither can you build a godly organization on the shoulders of people who are corrupt. yes, God can deliver anyone from any sin. however, a man who is supposed to be a minister? who continually chooses evil acts and preys upon his followers? it's the man's continual choices he made that seared his conscience, not God's lack of ability to save him. oh, and one more thing. demands that rape victims post their pictures, personal information, and twig history on the internet just so that your stubborn obnoxious self will believe it is highly delusional, insensitive, and makes you part of the problem not part of the solution. those are the exact same tactics rapists use to put pressure on their victims so they won't testify against them.

The original topic of the thread, I believe, is the shameful fact that each of TWI's splinters seems to have the need for a class or classes, and that they charge money for them. There isn't anything wrong with charging money for a class. I'm currently paying through the nose for classes at the seminary where I am working on a bona fide masters degree in theology. There is something VERY wrong with judging the quality of a person's faith by the classes they have completed, and something especially nasty about charging money for THAT! Paul WORKED a job! and preached on the side! He didn't make a living by selling the good news. Unfortunately, too many of Wierwille's followers see "ministry" as a way of making a living. What's worse is that Power For Abundant Living and all the classes it spawned are worth LESS than having no class at all. If you haven't had a class, you know you are ignorant. If you've taken PFAL, et al., then you think you already know everything you need to know, when in truth, we were sold a line of BS that makes the Bible even MORE difficult to understand. Just my two cents' worth, which is a very reasonable fee for the amount of wisdom in this post Love, Steve