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I've been a lurker here for years. This is my first post. This site has helped me tremendously to unravel most of the wrong teaching and (im)practical application of it that I received in TWI. I've got a ways to go yet but am very thankful for the progress I've made so far. Now that I am somewhat clear in my thinking about who and what TWI is I've tried to go back and figure out how I fell for all of this. What was I thinking? Or, better yet, why was I not thinking? In the "College Degrees and The Way" thread Twinky said "They stole my critical thinking ability". This is what I think happened to me. But rather than say someone stole it, I realize that I relinquished it, I set it down. Like getting someone to lay their weapon down they disarmed me. In retrospect (and for future application) I ask, why did I let them? I suppose there were some things that softened me up first. I was introduced to TWI by a longtime friend, someone who was not at all the religious type. Their life seemed changed for the better. (by the way: they no longer "stand" in TWI) Then all the people that I met that were associated with TWI seemed so loving, caring. And they all attributed their loving actions to TWI and specifically PFAL. So I took it. And I heard Wierwille say how God had told him that He'd teach him the word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others. I had never heard anyone make such a claim but I considered it, thought it might be possible. And in PFAL I heard things taught differently than I had been taught in my christian upbringing and I considered it, it made some sense. But what I think really got me to drop my critical thinking was the section on "no private interpretation" or one's own letting loose. The example given of Maggie standing up and saying "well I think it means..." followed by Johnny saying "well I think it means...." reminded me of bible discussions that I had heard growing up, people's opinions. I didn't want more opinions. The bible was to interpret itself. Some easy sections were cited where the text clearly said what the answer was (the seven churches are..., the seven candle sticks are....). Made sense to me. Why guess? This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I? So to keep myself out of this damnation I wouldn't allow myself to consider that what I was being taught was wrong. I dropped my critical thinking and believed what I was being taught. I was being had. Well, once I realized after all too many years that something was wrong I dared to critically look at what I had been taught, to (really) "make it my own". And it began to unravel, which was disconcerting at first but ultimately liberating. One of the first doctrines to fall was that of "no private interpretation". After looking at it from a fresh perspective I realized that for me that section had nothing to do with how I interpret the bible, but rather how we got it. Just look at the context. But I'm not here to convince anyone of what something means or doesn't mean...I suppose that would belong in the doctrinal forum. And how often did I hear Wierwille and others say things like "it's just got to be this" or "in the original it says this" and it was all their own private interpretation, guesswork (and not good guesswork at that). As far as the record of Eve is concerned: that's between God and her. But I do know that the basis of belief HAS to start with "Did God really say?". There's nothing wrong with considering what God says (said). It will hold up under scrutiny. As for adding, changing, deleting words: I'd say TWI is more guilty of this than most bible believing groups. So I'm back to square one on a number of beliefs. That's good in many ways. From TWI I've had a good lesson on "what it is not". That's a good place to start. I know what Christianity is not, it is not TWI. Peace

"I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs." ....................................................... Exactly! That's why I'm of the opinion that it so important to come to a realization that W.O.W. (and the other programs) were NOT some special, noble undertaking. We weren't "God's elite", to restate a popular cliche. We were just another zealous organization, doing the same things that thousands of other zealous organizations have done and continue to do. Sure, people had some good times, met some great people, experienced personal growth. I would never want to deny anyone their memories of those things. But, unless we can see it in perspective, we become like Al Bundy from Married With Children, who constantly relives his and exaggerates their importance to a pedestal-worthy level.

Waysider said: There are lots of incidents of psychological abuse, sexual abuse, violence and, yes, even murder, that were simply never reported to the general populace of The Way. Many of them were brought to the attention of upper management at The Way. (Alaska and Alabama seem to ring a bell for me.) In some cases, The Way chose to resolve the problem by relocating the individual to another area where their indiscretions would not be known. In some of the others, the perpetrators were tried and convicted. Part of the purpose of this site is to expose those incidents, not sweep them under the carpet like The Way did. I encourage anyone to search these pages for more detailed information. It's here if you really want to find it. Far more incidents than have ever been discussed here, I am sure. Part of the problem was leadership who wanted to sweep things under the rug, lest "the ministry be blamed." Another problem were leaders who were in over their heads and simlply had no idea how to handle such difficult situations, in conjunction with the ministry line that you didn't seek outside/wordly counsel. What I went through at the hands of my ex . . . it wasn't a secret. People knew. I remember when it first started and I went to my twig coordators - people I loved and trusted and to this day still believe were genuine, well-intentioned people. I honestly believe they wanted to do right, but were in way over their heads (pun intended). Unfortunately, what they said, the counsel they gave made everything worse. It amounted to putting the blame on me, something I was all too willing to accept -because that is what women who are abused do. They blame themselves. And then they blamed me too. The whole thing made me feel crazy. I have no way to describe it to someone who has never experienced it and I am so thankful that there is a place (here) where there are women who do get it. I'm not happy that they experienced anything aking to what I did, but I am relieved to know there are people who understand.

The WOW program, like most TWI initiatives, was a mixed bag. To the extent that committed people with a genuine heart to love God and serve Christ volunteered and gave it their best effort, good things happened. To the extent that shallow people blindly following suggestions from "leadership" or pursuing a career path used it as a means of gaining approval, status or some other carnal objective, bad things happened. Sometimes tragic things. I don't really think this phenomenon is specific to TWI. I'm sure Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Roman Catholics have a similar range of experiences with their missionary or seminary programs. God is merciful and blesses people with humble hearts, even those who are mixed up in corrupt organizations. The underlying problem with the WOW program is that the people who administered it did so with a level of deceit that undermines the stated nature of the program. Making assignments by throwing darts and tossing coins is a far cry from getting revelation from God as to where to send people. Refusing to remove or discipline someone who was sexually abusing his or her "family" members is blatantly irresponsible for a so-called Christian organization. (or any group that claims to follow and represent Jesus Christ). It would be nice if the current leadership at TWI learned from past mistakes and managed it honestly and humbly, doing their best to see that God's will was done and that the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ was the program's first and highest goal. But, based on past performance, I doubt very much that will happen.

as a whole, neither twi or it's wow program, past or present doesn't know what the word is nor how or who 'moves' it as if we had some kind of power, never described, just that we had it

I don't know that the Way didn't want that incident known, or did anything to hide it. Obviously it was a sensitive situation and I'd expect care would be given to the concerns of everyone involved. I don't remember much of the details around it however. To recap my own illustrious and vital opinions on this part of the discussion: How people handle their own business is a personal decision, of course. Every incident between people wouldn't be cause to call the police or find some civil authority to get involved to arbitrate or take control. There has to be some judgment involved and people have the privilege of making their own decisions about how to handle things. The law of the land applies to all - local, state and federal as well as whatever the social norms are in our own spheres of activity. When our actions fall outside those laws and standards we may well expect to encounter confrontation and enforcement, that's part of the system we live in and why we have laws and standards. They're not always fairly applied or even make sense in all situations - which is why it's always best to stay out of the gray areas as much as possible and certainly stay within the law of the land at the minimum. The Way had a closed corporation mentality to it's own problems and issues, for all of it's years. That' lack of outside influence is IMO a major reason as to why it failed and appears to continue to do so. They make the rules, they enforce them, or don't as they see fit. They're not accountable to anyone outside their own authority - they think - and that's how they act. They've always had an "us versus everyone else" mentality, where God is on their side and anyone who differs is on the "Devil's" side. That lack of connectivity to the outside world has created an environment that is what I'd call "high risk". It depends on the reliability and consistency of specific individuals, "leadership" and to a degree the individual member who makes decisions within the framework of doctrine that they're taught. When that fails - and it always does and always will at some point, the "weakest link" principle goes into effect and dominoes up and/or down the organization. There haven't been sufficient protections and back ups built into the system to reinforce failure when it occurs, instead they expect that if everyone believes God and everyone does the right thing as they've been instructed everything will be alright. Once we look at how all that sets up and works in real time, it can be seen to be VERY high risk and even dangerous. I'm not suggesting it's dangerous trusting in God, or using the Bible as our standard - but rather that The Way obviously doesn't have the ability to live that way responsibly and make it work. That's painfully clear by the snowball of conflict, problems and failure that have followed it throughout it's history. People do well sometimes, sometimes efforts succeed, there's good work done at times but overall, the foundations of how it works as an organization aren't sound enough to allow for measurable growth, progress and success. I doubt anyone outside of the Way Nash today would consider it a successful endeavor and anyone outside the Way Nash won't be allowed access into what they do, how they do it and who does what to either understand or contribute - so it's a running cycle of failure IMO. Good enough for those who don't get too involved and don't let them get too tight a hold on them. How this relates to the "WOW" program -well, my involvement was nearly 40 years ago - all of this regurgitation I'm coughing up is old fish wrap and doesn't really mean much of anything. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this now, to be honest. To theorize on how someone whipping out a pistol in a group and what would be the right thing to do - I dunno, I don't know if I would call the police to be honest. I might, it would depend on the people and circumstance. I can see some people would and that would be fine by me if they felt threatened - don't see how you couldn't feel threatened. Why would anyone think it necessary to do such a thing? Me, I can promise you then or now, it would get ugly real fast, once I'd disarmed the person. If I couldn't I'd get away from them. I don't treat that kind of thing lightly, never have, never will, it's not a joke or a social faux pas or a so-what deal. I'd do whatever I could to beat the crap out of them just on principle for doing such a stupid thing. I'm an old guy, I don't have the energy for anything that would take too long, it would be quick and conclusive, guaranteed. Put it this way - pull a gun in front of a Police Officer, just to make a point - and see what happens. Report back with the "war story" on that one and how it was appropriate and wasn't a problem. God - this is so interminably long I can't even remember what time I started. Why do I do this? Perhaps a smiley will pull it all together. Yeah, that works.

Our eyeballs send signals to our brains about the locations of objects on a 2-dimensional plane. The signals contradict each other. They say that the same object is at different places on a 2-dimensional plane. Our brains do NOT resolve these apparent contradictions. They integrate the contradictory information to produce extra-dimensional images. I say the images are "extra-dimensional" because the brain takes two sets of contradictory information about spatial locations in two dimensions, and achieves perception of a third dimension. Is a contradiction automatically a lie? No it is not! To "contradict" simply means to "speak against". Is either eyeball lying when their signals speak against each other? They are each telling the truth from a different viewpoint. Their contradictory signals are integrated into a higher-dimensional understanding. Now we can very easily test the contradictions our eyeballs are sending to our brains. Extend you hand out to arm's length, with the thumb pointing upward. Close one eye and mark the location of your thumb against some object in the reasonable distance. Now, without moving your thumb or your head, close the eye you were looking through, and open the other. Notice how it seems that your thumb moves, even though you have not moved it. OMG! Where is my thumb REALLY at!?! I decide that I cannot live with this contradiction, so I take to dressing like a pirate and wear a patch over one of my eyes. I have resolved the apparent contradiction, but in the process, I have also lost my depth perception, and become a very unreliable driver (except by using my memory to reconstruct the missing contradiction from other visual information, such as planar perspective or relative size perspective, or even aerial perspective in the case of objects so distant that the intervening air changes the perceived colors of the objects). No detached observer can honestly deny that the four gospels contradict each other. I know my mind had been pickled so long in "the Bible contains no contradictions" that I didn't even notice how the gospels contradict each other. I didn't compare them. I just automatically assumed that everything in them could be harmonized if we put enough effort into the project. But when I DID start comparing them, without automatically assuming that they could be harmonized, I began to see contradictions that CANNOT be resolved. When we prayerfully consider what we read in the gospels, as Geisha suggests, then the Holy Spirit can integrate their contradictory information to produce an extra-dimensional understanding of who Jesus was, and what He did, and by extension, who WE are, and what WE are to do. How many dimensions? If we accept written information as being linear, then each of the gospels accounts would present a 1-dimensional image. Since there are four gospels, then an extra dimensional understanding would be at least 5-dimensional. Now that's just speculation, but what might we call such an extra-dimensional understanding? Perhaps "spiritual enlightenment"? Perhaps "the living Word of God"? The signals from our eyeballs contradict each other. They "speak against" each other, yet neither one is lying. Each signal is "true" from the viewpoint of the particular eyeball. Our brains integrate the contradictory information to transcend what our eyeballs are telling us. Just so, the gospels contradict each other, not because the writers were lying, but because the information each gospel presents about who Jesus is and what He did is "true" from the theological viewpoint of its particular writer. The understanding achieved when the Holy Spirit integrates the contradictions transcends the understanding we receive from any one of the gospels by itself. BUT... if we "resolve the apparent contradictions" the way Wierwille taught in PFAL, it's like putting a pirate patch over one eye, only instead of losing our physical depth perception, we lose our comprehension of the integrity of the living Word of God! And Wierwille was right about that. The integrity of the Word IS always at stake! People and organizations can sell the resolution of apparent contradictions for money. NOBODY can sell the integration of contradictions to produce transcendence. Only the Holy Spirit can do THAT! So... those things being understood... I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the living Word of God" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "There are no contradictions in the Bible" to be a false statement. I would judge the statement "God does not lie" to be a true statement. I would judge the statement "God cannot contradict Himself" to be a false statement. The book of Job is about why bad things happen to good people. The LORD never gives an answer to that question in the book. I hazard to guess that proof-texts can be found at other places in the Old Testament for every one of the ideas Job's miserable comforters brought up, yet in Job 42:7 the LORD told Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." What did Job speak of the LORD? "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee" (Job 42:2) How did the miserable comforters kindle God's wrath? They were telling Job what God could and could not do based on their resolutions of the apparent contradictions in the Bible. Job's insight into the truth was that God can do whatever He wants to do, even if that entails suffering for the innocent. And suffering for the innocent was exactly what God's will entailed for Jesus Christ! Here's an example of how there are contradictions in the gospels. This is one that the Holy Spirit has not yet integrated in my understanding. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, we become children of God at our resurrections, when we receive our inheritances as promised in Ezekiel 37. Yet in the gospel of John, and in Paul, we became children of God when we received the gift of the Holy Spirit that was promised in Joel 2:28-32, the earnest of our inheritances. I know what John wrote regarding this contradiction in his first letter, chapter 3, "1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. "2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "3 And every man that hat this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Has the Holy Spirit yet integrated these things in my understanding. No He has not. Am I going to resolve this apparent contradiction by taking one position and trying to rationalize away the other? No I am not. If I did do that, I would short circuit the Holy Spirit's permission to integrate them in my understanding. I would be flattering myself that I know as much as God. I would be flattering myself in my own eyes so much that I wouldn't recognize my own errors, or even care. "The Bible contains no contradictions" IS one of the biggest lies perpetrated by TWI and some of its offshoots, and it IS one of the root lies that enabled all of the other depradations that those organizations have committed. Love, Steve

people should stop trying to know as much as god