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Very interesting thoughts Teachme. I think Christ was inserted when he was because at that point, most of the "known" Gentile world, including Europe, Asia, because of the thoughts of Plato and others that had permeated culture in ways the people proably didn't even realize, they would be able to understand who Christ was in those terms. As for Jewish thought, many "strangers and aliens" sojourned with Israel from their inception on and I feel many would have known about their beliefs, or others who didn't believe would have know about their "myths" (to an unbeliever it would have been myth). But, I believe a lot of the ancient gentile beliefs and gods they worshipped were corruptions over time of what Noah knew and taught after the flood. For example, the Cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life. They were still there up until the flood. Many people saw them. The creature with a head with 4 faces: man, bird, oxen (tame beast), lion (wild beast). Thus, in ancient pre-flood civilizations where the ruins still stand, and later ones after the flood that survive to this day, you see the gods they worshipped: Human bodies with bird heads (seen in Egypt still to this day) Human bodies with heads of rams or other animals. Worship of cows (oxen). All of these a corruption of the Cherubim what was seen in Eden by people living in the area and walking by. What was the first thing Israel made when Moses went up to commune with God? The Golden Calf - and they worshipped it. Why a cow? Corrupted stories/memories of the Cherubim. Also, when Adam looked at the Cherubim he realized what he lost: Man's dominion over all and over the animal kingdom. What heartbreak it must have been for him. That's why the prophecy of the coming redeemer/seed must have comforted him: Someday, he would be "Adam" again. He would be the image bearer of God. So would all of humanity. Humanity will be restored. That is part of Israel's Hope. Now, we are a fallen race, a pale shadow of what once was.

Hello Teachme, how are you? :) I did post on another thread regarding the Logos and why it was an important concept for a Greek/Roman person. I stated I believed it was not a coincidence in the time period in which Jesus was inserted in human history. I stated I believed the Gospel of John was written to people of the world showing who Jesus was. I believe it was aimed at a "gentile" because it explains many of the things said and done, and gives background on Jewish traditions and explanations, where a Jewish person reading would need no explanation. That's why there is a theory it is the "Gospel to the World" so to speak. I also stated that in that time, to a Greek they would read and the Logos concept in this context would have a huge impact on someone. Then a person asked, how so? So, here's my answer. This is what I tend to believe Logos is and why it was a great choice to introduce an unbelieving Greek/Hellinistic person, to Christ. Here goes: First, some background: Once upon a time, the Greeks broke away from mythology as their world view and turned to reason and evidence as their world view aided by various philosophers. Now, with this new world view in mind, they began a quest to find the underlying cause of the cosmos - this was "Logos." The underlying cause of the cosmos became the "Logos." We also have Plato's thoughts (revelation?) of forms and ideas that says: things in the physical world are "forms" in the physical world, but the true substance, is in heaven - we are a form that is a manifestation of our "true human essence" which is heavenly, so to speak. We are not the "real" deal. We are not the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality is not this world - but the forms in the physical world reflect the reality of the Cosmos - God's world. For example, take my cat. He is here, I love him - but what is his true essence? What is the true "essence" of Cat? What is God's reality of "Cat"? If I saw "cat essence" in heaven - the true reality - I would be blown away. Cats in the physical realm are copies, or forms, of the original, true, heavenly reality. Just as God said, "let us make man in our image" our true essence is heavenly. Heraclitus, around 500 bc defined logos as "God's reason." Philo's use of logos around 25 bc included references to Plato's world of Forms, the mind of God. Logos was the ultimate underlying form, essence, or reason of the cosmos. It is what holds everything together. Look at it this way: God is a mind, an idea. Out from him, like a telescope, comes Logos - the unifying principle of everything, but it is manifest - it is the idea, the mind of God come to life - a manifestation. It created the heaven and earth - it carried out God's purposes and ideas in the physical realm. You could call the Logos, the Jehovah of the OT if you wanted. Out from this, like the telescope, comes the Holy Spirit that witnesses and testifies to us, those things. So, now, back to John 1. No problem, we read, in the beginning was God and the Logos was with him... blah, blah, blah - everyone knows that John. We continue: blah, blah... AND THE LOGOS BECAME FLESH - WHOA! Stop! Hold it!!!! Does.Not.Compute!!!! I need to think!!!... Now you are telling me that the Logos, the manifestation of the mind of the universe (God), the ultimate, underlying Form (essence) of the Cosmos has now been revealed!!! To us!!! A special revelation of God appearing as: the divine, promised savior clothed in human form. Whoa!!! Much to think about here - let's read on and see what this John guy has to say... "You shall call his name 'Emanuel' - God with us"... Think, "a body thou hast prepared me" Psalms - prophecy of the coming Savior. What a mindblower - or today, we'd say: WTF?????? So, sorry for the length, I hope this answered your question and made a little bit of sense. I think God is so much bigger than we think. :)

For the "believers education".. I would recommend.. Norah Jones. Come away with me. then.. feels like home.. I would rate these as highly as Beatles.. Rubber Soul, Revolver.. Magical Mystery Tour.. etc, etc.. heh.. a God-Daughter of the Beatles.. what more could one expect..

Wait till you look at Norah Jones.. "it" calls.. it will come..

No disrespect intended.. :)

:) you haven't seen anything, yet..

Ha! hey.. you (and me) can fit in, anywhere..

Heh.. it was the only character with the badge of mathematical excellence.. that made his way out of that existence.. I can't say it is (or were) me.. because I am still here..

seems.. what the "average" follower does not see.. or the scam would not perpetuate itself.. we are played one against another.. one "class" of society against another.. one religious adherence against another.. now, math, its hard to do this.. but they have their little (polite mostly) internal quarrels at times.. they generally agree on the methods and results.. but division seems to be the situation, one generation after another, and if one believes it, one lifetime after another.. who gains here? can't be da follower who avoids family, regarding them possessed of da enemy.. I dunno.. I've had to deal with this.. in ways I wish I didn't.. I've had to tell some who I love.. "your beliefs require you to think I am possessed. Now what are you going to do.." yeah.. I've been in those shoes before..

Ha! Like the claims.. Obama isn't really American.. he's an Islamic devotee.. he's getting a divorce.. he's.. (this, and that.. ad infinitum..) and the other side is no better.. seems we all are like the J.W.'s.. and Socks claims of the R.C.'s.. doesn't seem to make much difference how old or young the belief happens to be..

Wasn't there a native american story.. of the animals.. they could go to some designated cave, take off their skins, and realize they were all the same..

at this point.. the "cult" label seems freely thrown here at times.. I think they ALL are cults. every last stinking one of them.. not limited to religious. I'm in one of the larger intellectual cults at the moment.. maybe the difference is.. it isn't the individual that sets the standard.. its a mathematical proof.. but a "destruction of SELF" is not required..

and I am (or wasn't) trying to be mean or beat you, Mr. Socks over the head with anything here.. as far as "mainstream" or lack thereof.. I cannot include one's beliefs with my choice of friends. Now there has to be some reasonable assumptions. 1. You are not willing to burn, stab, shoot or otherwise assault me on account of my beliefs.. and most of the time that seems to be asking far too much of a lot of people.. I can't make friendships or connections based on belief. Past failures convince me of that.. Who gives the control? Well.. in the USA it's supposed to be a fee society and all.. the individual either affirms or disaffirms the control that one party exercises over another.. sometimes with or without consequences.. as far as "controlling oversight".. it was SUPPOSED to just be a bible study.. some group reading a book to try to get a little bit of truth and make some sense out of it..

but with the JW's.. wasn't there an evolution as to who was "the best"? I mean.. you start with da 144000.. faithful followers, sons of the sons of Israel.. and what happens when you have more followers than slots to fill? well.. mathematically there is something called the pigeonhole principle.. you have more slots than selections.. then some selections won't have slots to fill.. what do you do with the ones that don't "fit"? well.. maybe one has to dream up different slots for them to occupy.. can't all be clergy.. maybe some can be staff.. or Branch coordinators.. or just go through three grueling years to have the coveted "twig coordinator" position.. sounds like the same thing to me..

It was kind of "cool".. I was da Squirrel incognito.. rescued from da den of lions.. I have much more to say, but all that is just the result of a vivid imagination..

Perhaps. But I think what doesn't get lost in the comparison is "too-much-Wayfer-like-must-Sux". It's like.. perhaps one has an isolated, non-mainstream dogma one adheres to.. fine. Doesn't bother me at all.. but then one adds a controlling oversight for the "standard" (whatever or whoever that is) follower.. and it starts smelling a little bit like a cod left on the dock a little too long.. then ultimatums from the pulpit, how devilish holders of different opinions have become.. kind of like.. the very last offshoot meeting I attended. No kidding. The "main teaching".. it was during an election year. "Now these liberals are so... spiritually compromised.. *they* are not like *us*.. who know da *truth*.. You'd think they'd just scooped up the flounder, or whatever indistinguishable sea creature it was and properly disposed of it.. but in the good old USA.. NOOOOOOOOOOOO.. it went further. "they are at the least influenced by da prince of darkness.. maybe even infested with debil spirits.. they might not turn homo today, or tomorrow.. but..." the most "unsettling" thing here.. a half dozen of supposed educated people sat, heads bobbing in affirmation.. I was one of them. I left the room while not turning my back.. my head bobbing as well.. and never went back..

I dunno. Seems kind of *odd*.. in love with a dead man.. including Schoenheit.. Lynn.. "nobody.. does it better.." maybe it was their first "experience".. The victoid didn't just screw a lot of women.. he screwed a lot of men too..

Yeah.. he(?) showed her(him?) the night of his(her) life. decades later they still are still in love..

Ha! well.. chrissy poo is just an old woman.. laid once long ago, by herr vicster.. sowie.. it's just an impression I have..

rosie the Terrible would win before the bell sounded in the first round.. she(?)'d have Chrissy Poo by the same appendages she had loy by.. she's a man's woman.. or is that a womans man.. or is it something else..

"Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

Yep, so much nicer, run by an little old lady(?)