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I like the way you think newlife. Speaking of which... I doubt the average member of the Way of average intelligence and education, y'know, the average guy or gal, feels they've given up their free will or is brainwashed or secretly wonders about their fellowships shrinking. If they're involved in the day to day's they know what's going on in their immediate realm. If they accept it, they're fine with it. If they wonder "why" this or that they would only need to ask and if they're rebuffed in a manner they find offensive or dishonest, well there you go, process started. I always recommend to people in general and it would apply here - it's healthy to remain somewhat independent from the influence of others, while allowing open range for relationships and learning. I've always been that way. It works - you can be as tight as blink in an eye with someone else and still be your own person. I do agree, if I read you right - telling them someone else did something 30, 20, 10, 1 year ago may have little or no impact. Whatever matters to people most is what matters most - they're immediate affairs and what impacts them and those close to them. I'm a big fan of leaving people alone - something that Americans have a hard time doing despite our death-grip on what we loosely call "freedom". It can be hard as hail though to actually find people who will do that. We all think it's in everyone's best interests to be bugging the crap out of each other, for our own good. We mean well, we want the "best" for everyone but isn't that.....well, doesn't it sound familiar in a reverse kind of way? ..... "This is in your best interests because if you only knew better you'd be better off. Like me." The idea of making a decision "on their own" - they already have. If they're happy they're happy. You're right (li'l joke there) - it's completely useless to impose a bunch of moral issues in a theoretical vacuum and hope anyone's going to care. Some maybe, to some extent but really, there's no solid outcome you can expect from it and if there is it's accidental. Try asking the person what their own impressions are and their own feelings and thoughts about their participation. Then respond to that. If they're within the laws of the land and accceptable social norm's for the society we live in and aren't harming small animals, I don't get into other people's shorts unless - important caveat - I feel they're/our/mine health and safety is at risk. I concede there's some subjectivity to that call. That being the case I proceed respectfully, as you are, remembering to not impose my own highly enlightened and obviously superior ideas on them. Well, not at first anyway. I wait till they like me, than I bomb them. :biglaugh: