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So here are all these wannabes with "ministries" and they all have special knowledge of God and they're all willing to impart it to you – for a price. For those who still profess Christianity: Could you just remind me again – how many books was it that Jesus wrote? And sold, to fund his lifestyle? For post-Pentecost followers of Paul: There were plenty of epistles that he wrote to all the young churches. How much d'you suppose he charged per page of the letters known as 1 and 2 Corinthians? And what d'you suppose he charged Timothy, for training and ordaining him? For post-Pentecost followers of the more Jewish apostles? Remind me again – what did likely lads like James, Jude and Peter charge for copies of their books/epistles? For OT followers: How much did Moses charge for training the leaders, in Ex 18:25? And there must have been instruction manuals, books, scrolls, what-have-you, to ensure that they did it correctly, yes? Too difficult to write it all down in the desert? Okay, how about Ezra's teachings in Neh 8? It's quite clear that there were written documents then, including lots of written documentation about kings and laws and so forth; so here in the book of Nehemiah, where the instruction of lots of people is described – surely all those new "converts" must have required special instruction books? And special training for the newly-appointed leaders? That Jesus! He had such stupid ideas! Just how was he planning to fund his stable of racing donkeys? Matthew 10 (King James Version) 1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out , and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; … 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth , and commanded them, saying , Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. … 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. I don't read anywhere in this or associated records: Sell 'em the book Here's secret knowledge that you can buy (and on-sell). Make 'em come to church/synagogue/my pet place of worship (in fact, quite the opposite. There's a warning to beware of those in the synagogues (verse 17)). Tell 'em to check out my work/long period of study We have a class that, for a fee, will help you understand better. Don't tell if they won't buy I do read, in relation to a similar outreach: Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given , he offered them money, 19 Saying , Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. ("Clear off, and take your money with you!") Wow! Imagine that from one of these wannabes with a ministry!! What kind of a cult would that be? How on earth could they fund a lavish or even comfortable lifestyle, when money-for-knowledge is rejected?

Of course TWI and the splinters are not 100% wrong - that would be (relatively) easy to spot. If one accepts TWI's basic premises in how it came to believe there were 4 others crucified and all the other "errors" in orthodox belief pointed out in the foundational class, it becomes pretty hard to deny that it's all there for the learning. Those points, which are rather trivial (IMO), are the bait that sucks one in. Bait doesn't have to be big - just enticing and enough to cover the hook. I don't know if it was all intentional or not, but once one starts down that path, it's pretty hard to extricate oneself from that line of thinking, particularly after the inevitable censoring of any sort of critical thinking. This is what sucked me in and kept me in a splinter for a lot longer than I was ever in TWI - the premise that the NT was "scripture" and therefore "god-breathed" and "inerrant" and "can't contradict itself" and that orthodox churches had lost that connection - and here's the undeniable "proof". I firmly believed that until late 2002, even as I was actively attending a regular church. As I attended church, the differences became non-issues as I became less enamored with the need to feel like I had to be aligned with an organization who needed to be right at the expense of every other organization. For me that was the key - they ALL think they're right, but at least Presbyterians don't feel the need to continually castigate every other organization for perceived errors in understanding, and that was refreshing. It didn't hurt that CES became quirkier and more set in its ways as time went on. In the beginning there was a lot more freedom to think and speculate, but as it developed its own doctrines apart from TWI, it became more like TWI when defending its doctrines. I was done with all of that and I really didn't want to be around it anymore. The mental gymnastics that it takes to accept the "can't contradict itself" part forces one into leaning on others for the necessary understanding of all the other crap TWI and the splinters teach, because even a non-critical reader can see that the text contradicts itself all over the place, which is vehemently denied by TWI and every splinter. It takes someone who is really good at bending logic without making it obvious to keep people blind to the glaring inconsistencies. VPW was really good at it; LCM was not. CES is pretty good at it until one strips away all the premises that must be adhered to in order to accept the logic. None of that matters anymore. For me, it all boils down to how people are treated. I can't speak about any other splinter, but how TWI and then CES treated people was what ultimately turned me against them. When the idea of being "Christlike" is basically treating everyone else (including followers) like idiots or moneychangers, that's the kind of "Christ" I can do without.

Well, as many bones as I have to pick with the way international, they are not 100% wrong. Their own teachings on how the "value and delusion of the counterfeit is increased by it's nearness to the likeness of the original" testify against them. I have narrowed my definition of splinter group a little to be a little more in line with what Wordwolf and waysider said to begin with. I don't expect everyone else to do the same. I also agree with Skyrider, that Wierwille is an off shoot of Leonard. I guess to me the fruits produced have to be the indicator of off shoot, since to me the term implies false ministry, led by false ministers. I respect others application of the definition and the differing view points in how it's applied. I think that's one of the things that makes Grease Spot somewhat unique is many of us left the same way international mold and have gone in so many different directions. Yet we are still able to come together for a common good.

Roy brings up another good point. Do you think Moses only spoke Hebrew? You do know he lived in Egypt for a number of years don't you? By repeatedly telling or implying that Paul only spoke Hebrew even though he lived, taught and ministered in Greek speaking provinces for a number of years, you are discrediting his linguistic ability. You do realize that don't you? In contrast, many of us here think very highly of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles and his all around education and abilities. In fact, since we can see you can speak and write English, likely you were born in the USA, and you say you know Hebrew and Aramaic, that means in your mind you think you have more linguistic ability and education than the apostle Paul. That is some kind of an ego you've got there James.

Watch it Twinky, I called him a troll his first day here and everyone got upset and angry - Roy, who invited him here, castigated me thoroughly. Meanwhile, when I asked Mr. Composer his name, his website, to let us see some people and their "testimonies" of what Composer had done for him - there was nada, zip. He's got nothing - except taunts to total strangers and his own terror of God (if he didn't care about God - he wouldn't be making a lifetime railing against him - most people who don't believe have better things to do with their time). So, some dude, we never heard of, who's never been around TWI is supposed to be someone important? Meh, he's a noone and has nothing and when asked to show us his results via other people, a website, his educational credentials, he backed away quickly. Don't feed the trolls is excellent advice.

"Are we healed by faith and miracles or by medicine, reason and bed rest?" Another either/or proposition: Are these two alternatives mutually exclusive? Can't the healing be some of both?