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The name tag indicated, class / program based caste system in the way international is absolutely crazy. A few years ago I remember hearing Rosalie referring to a recently "copped out" corps couple and she said "The consequences are much worse after taking the salt commitment." So in these days of a softer, kinder, loving household they still hold to the core belief system of the way international. That if you leave the way ministry there will be negative consequences to you after you are gone. But if you are way corpse and leave the way international then the consequences will be much worse! Well, after being active way corpse and leaving the way international I can say that I've never been better. I'm prosperous, free, I enjoy my family and we get along great. Mmmmm....maybe the consequences are to the way international because they no longer have my wife and I doing cheap labor for them. So sorry to tell you guys that God has blessed me the same w/o the way international lording over my life as if Rosalie is the head of the church. And my life keep getting better...

What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the female survivors learned from being raped and then murdered by marauding criminals? What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the orphaned children will learn from being sold as sex slaves in to paedophile rings by these escaped 7000 criminals? What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the orther orphaned children that were sold off for body parts would learn from their experiences? What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the resulting amputees crushed in the earthquake would learn and their starving families that did survive with not only no home or food, but also a cripple to fend for that is unable to work and provide its share to the remaining group? What alleged ' good ' did the 250,000 killed in Haiti learn? Considering self proclaimed christians claim their God is so ' loving ' the evidence provided to sustain that is almost non existent?

Yeah - B to the S - ay. Cop out - meaning to back out of one's commitment, or to avoid the fulfillment of a promise or responsibility. One interesting Biblical study (not that we're here to do interesting Biblical studies) is looking into the whole "swearing an oath" concept throughout the Bible. Of course, the whole Ecc. 5:4 "when you vow a vow, defer not to pay it" concept in the "duty of man" book is a good general Biblical principle. However, it is OT, which is law based. So is there a principle in the NT that is grace based that explains more of God's intention for vows since Jesus Christ? When you look a little closer, in the NT grace based period, it's pretty clear that God's intention is not that Christians go around vowing vows to each other and placing each other under obligation to pay up. Check out the sermon on the mount - Matt. 5:33 - 37. This is Jesus setting the contrast between the law and what he came to bring. Matt 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. One of the problems with human beings and this whole vow thing is that when one person has another under an obligation they have power over them. Jesus encouraged followers not to swear all these oaths and vows to bind themselves, but instead just simply say "yes I'll do that" or "no I won't do that". You see living in this fashion is more honest and keeps people from holding the vow thing over your head, changing the terms of the vow, and forcing your compliance. That is TWI. This whole Corps thing, including the "vow" of a lifetime of Christian service, these litte Napoleans and Queen Elizabeth types can just keep changing the terms, enacting new edicts, placing God's people under greater and greater bondage, and all the while holding the Corps feet to the fire due to some Old Testament obligation to not defer to pay their vows. That's legalism at it's ugliest. That is what Jesus was teaching "whatsoever is more than this cometh of evil". And you see that is what Paul was talking about when he refused to allow himself to be placed under those kind of ridiculous obligations. His prayer was to be delivered from "wicked and unreasonable men". And even in the OT it's pretty easy to see that God's heart isn't bondage. Jacob and Laban are a story of this nature - where Jacob put himself under a vow for working, and Laban would change his wages and take advantage of Jacob. Now Jacob stuck it out as that was OT law, and God rewarded him. But Laban was the evil one there. And this fits across the board with TWI. The ones who are evil here is TWI leadership. Imposing all these vows upon people, changing their wages and requirements, sucking up more and more of their lives. I finally got up enough courage to live under grace, and say "no I won't do that". To say "you've moved the boundaries so far from normal litle by little that it is no longer God's will for my life". So God delivered me from wicked and unreasonable men. And living in grace opens up whole new vistas of opportunity. Despite all the turds who want to wish consequences upon your life. I mean just think about it - is wishing consequences upon another person, especially another Christian even a remotely Christian thought or expression?

Probably a red herring.

Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the whole enchilada. We have the spirit of a sound mind - there's wholeness in that. Via the One Spirit, we are members in particular in the One Body of Christ who IS the resurrection and the life. He is presently glorified and presently filling us up with the stuff of glory. That's salvation wholeness. Sure we are saved to & by the Hope. But likewise, the Spirit also helps us (Rom. 24-26). "Likewise?" Like what wise? Like the Hope will make us whole, so the Spirit makes us whole now. As far as I can see, the word likewise can mean: 1. in a similar manner 2. partly in the same manner while partly in a different manner 3. entirely in the same way because it IS the same way Also, as far as I can see it, Romans is using the 3rd sense of "likewise." I think the whole of the rest of Rom. 8 swings on this word "likewise." The Spirit is the reality of the Hope of Glory - the glorified Christ - changing us now to be like him (as Rom. 8:28-30 goes on to say). Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, is just not finished with the work yet, but it is the same work. Also Steve, I sense a tone of heavy judgment on yourself by yourself. Perhaps I'm wrong, but RE: "His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy." I would say rather than mercy tempering justice, mercy rejoices against justice, brother. Psalms 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. You know the truth of your deceitful heart better than anyone, & Lord knows I know mine, but God is greater than our hearts. I believe, to our amazement, if we could see ourselves through God's eyes instead of our own, we would see him holding us in the palms of his hands calling us faithful because he sees the continual yearning in our hearts to know him. And we would cry and be unburdened (or maybe burdened with the burden of Christ which is light:)) Well, we CAN know THAT much about our loving heavenly Father Bless you brother, Tom