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Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers): Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martindale was kicked out. Others describe it as being "softer and kinder." No doubt there has been change - some perhaps for the better. I just have one question, specifically for Shiftthis: what is the Way's attitude towards homosexuals? If a homosexual man (or woman) turned up looking very "gay", would that person be welcomed, honestly and openly, at a Sunday Night Service? Or (even if permitted to stay) would they remain feeling welcome, or would they feel lectured at, and condemned for their sexuality? It is widely understood at the Cafe that Rosalie and Donna have had/are in a relationship and there have been allegations that Rosalie had a lesbian couple living (secretly) in her household. Those things have always been kept away from the wider public knowledge, even from most people living at HQ. And certainly at the time, that behavior was going on even though it didn't fit with Martindale's rages against it. But now? If, let's say, two homosexual ex-Wayfers (perhaps some of those you say were "wrongly thown outa the ministry by others who aint here no more" turned up hand-in-hand for SNS, what would be the reaction?

Kinder & Gentler? Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why).... And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself, still it's part of my life. You can request to have copies of all those court documents sent to you via the freedom of information act. You'll get quite a bit more than what Greasespot has available. If you get an attorney to make the request, you can get even more (I'm not sure how they can do that, but they can). I did. and there's more than just the suggestion in those documents of the matters I mentioned above. At first LC Martindale was going to fight the suit, during the course of things he was "removed" from running the ministry. This happened after the info on DM and RR was introduced. Donna knew for over a decade that her husband was a soup sandwich for sex. So she formed other attachments. Anyways, you're right about one thing shiftthis, If they find you looking into it, or asking about it, they'll kick you out. Especially if you are suspected to know the truth. And you won't be the first one that's happened to. I have no personal beef with you. The Way Ministry is - sort of kinder and gentler now,... no more mass excommunications, but (EASILY) 90% of the old Ministry are gone As to Asia. All Asia forsook Paul. But Paul did not kick them out.... Nor did Paul have sex with their wives and daughters. There is a difference, you know Donna and Rosalie knew about L.C. Martindale for over a decade, and said nothing till they were about to be exposed for what they had allowed and were doing. They're not going to let some schmoe like you, learn, and then tell, the truth. They'll crush that, you're right. But it's really pretty easy to find it out A quick visit to the home of Rosie's friends and a chat with the neighbors,.... but I don't want you to get kicked out if you want to stay in.

I get a laugh how you guys in the way international like to decide who "wants the word." It's the goodness of God that leads a person to repentance and that is shown by unconditional love. But you guys make these judgements about who wants what because based on how quick someone falls into obedience to the way internationals mandates. Egads. And I used to be the same way when I was in der veg. As you are I once was.

Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, Samaritans, women, and just about every other socially undesirable that one could imagine. I don't see one record where he told them to shape up according to the word or he would shut them out. Perhaps he realized that for some it wasn't a radical conversion, but a lifelong process of progress and failures.

These are good questions. Shift??...??

But Shiftthis does..... Here there has to be a question. You believe the allegations about Rosalie Rivenbark are false and that those making them are liars. Would it make any difference if you had proof that this was the truth? What would you do? When Martindale was in charge, people were face d with that same choice,... MOST, did nothing. many of those people are still in The Way International today, and some people still don't believe Martindale did anything wrong. It's easier to say, "It's a lie" than to look into it. There's always that uncomfortable fact that when you discovered it to be true, you'd be forced to do something if you had any spine at all. Not looking into it is far easier. The tweo women who have stayed with Rosalie Rivenbark also have lives outside of Way Property. It's interesting to note that people who are so very close to RR, living under her own roof, have such private personal lives. Would it stun you to learn that they live together. Yes shiftthis, you're a good ostrich. You've never looked into any of it seriously (It's not actually that hard to do yanno?) It's easier to believe others are lying, That requires no time or effort on your part, no expense, and less personal aggrivation. It would be terribly uncomfortable for you to discover the truth that people that refuse to do as THE WORD instructs are welcome in her home. Heck - you're paying for it. Better to deny. It's easier. That's how Martindale got to be such an idiot. He counted on people like you to stick their heads in the sand, until the Allens called his bluff and exposed him. But LC Martindale wasn't the only one getting his jollies. His wife and RR were into all that too. the Allens didn't sue them,... because they weren't in charge of the Ministry. But they did mention D.M. and R.R.'s indiscretions to the judge. The judge mentions this offhandedly in what is public and when R.R. and D.M. were informed, they quickly subordinated their case and paid the Allen's off to NOT carry their lawsuit into a court of law. Easier to be an ostrich......

I don't think it's whether or not we (as Christians) believe homosexuality is wrong. I think it's whether or not we believe (as Christians) that Jesus came for everyone. Outcasts. Outsiders. And yes, even the homosexual. Who are we to decide who is to be reconciled to God? Who are we to suggest your or my particular sin is any less despised by God? I'm just sayin' that I think we (as Christians) should be very careful when we attempt to speak on behalf of God about who or who is not welcome.

Steve, do a word study on Shoel or gravedom. yes, the flesh dies. But, the soul goes down to the grave. You have lots of dead souls in Revelation asking for vengence, and being told they must wait a bit longer until their brothers have also been martyred. When Jesus used the parable of Lazarus, if they were truly, dead, I doubt he would have been talking about what Lazarus and the rich man were going through. If you study the souls in the grave/sheol/hell, you will note that they are conscious and self-aware. But yes, the flesh goes back to the dust and is no more. I can no longer buy VP's belief in "soul sleep." I believe souls are quite aware, I believe when Christ was resurrected out of Sheol he was the given the authority (keys) to the gates of Sheol. Not one believer, now that Christ was resurrected, would ever be again separated from their Savior. I believe when his children die, they are with him, but will not yet receive their new, resurrection body until the appointed time.

Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on Grease Spot now had I not been treated so horribly by Rosalie and John Rupp. Hopefully you will tell them I say Thanks!! It's because of them that I am free from the way international, happy, and prosperous today. You guys didn't think I would go through what I did and quietly creep away did you? I just left the way international two years ago. I was way corps, have been section coord. assistant department coord., department coord., and was on the president's. cabinet. I know the inside workings of the way ministry and let me tell you one thing. It has only changed in appearance. Just because the teachings are delivered in a lower tone of voice does not mean that the people who are running the place, the same people who were shoulder to shoulder with Craig Martindale and named in the Allen lawsuit as accomplices, have made any meaningful changes unless they were forced into legal compliance - probably under counsel from their lawyers. I heard Rosalie say first hand that she hates all the changes that have had to happen since the Allen lawsuit during a rant she went on because someone on staff (he was clergy so it made it worse) went to their kids little game on a Sunday afternoon instead of going to the Sunday Teaching Service. Furthermore, she came after me and my family, by proxy, via John Rupp. I was treated horribly and endured months of harassment that only abated when she went too far and I took the first steps in initiating a harassment complaint against them. My crime? Requesting to be reassigned to a nearby city where my son's doctors are because he has a serious health condition. Driving several hundred miles each week was causing a financial hardship and making things difficult for us by adding hours of travel time. I could go on but will move on to my next point. I told my mother, who was an advanced class grad, how we were being treated and she decided to leave the way ministry. She was contacted by her former fellowship coordinator and was told that if she had any hope of her grandson being healed of his disease then that hope was now gone because she was leaving the way international. She could expect God's hand of protection and healing to depart from her family. This happened in early 2009. So don't give me the way international is better and different speech. I am sad to say that you have been deceived. The Allen's exposed the way ministry as a corrupt organization that systematically abuses it's followers. The results of that sunlight was to white wash the facade and hide the evil deeper in the shadows. Never believe the bull$#i+.... that says the way international has changed since craig was ousted. It has been corrupt since victor paul wierwille and is corrupt today as it has ever been.

You have already poisoned the well, why should I or anyone else now believe anything you try to explain to us? If you had approached us and said "If scripture is true...why this or that?" We might possibly have a discussion, but no.....you declared it fiction.....and now want to make your points about Jesus being a fraud and liar FROM fiction. Even I know that if you want to make a point.....you first look at the evidence, build a case, and then draw a reasoned conclusion.....you don't even offer a good alternative or some kind of defense for the existential questions scriptures answers.....just some passing reference to some mythical ID God you have imagined and decided to believe in...that doesn't really fill me with confidence in your ability to discern. Can you do that by the way? Prove the God you believe in? At least I have the scriptures, which oddly have outlived all its pallbearers. No, you have spoken excathedra and declared the scriptures fiction......now you want to use them to prove your point? Too late. All we could possibly have now is a discussion on the subjective nature of literature..... Hey, but thanks for trying to save us from ourselves.....I am going with Jesus....at least He offers some substantial wisdom....whether you see it or not.....it is your choice.

Ham. As a writer with a story to tell and then as a woman and mom with a life to live it's tough some days and putting my story out here only took me 11 years. I'm learning, more so in last month or so, about picking my battles VERY carefully. That's not to say I will shut up, 'cuz now I can't, but it is to say that I know I have critics and what Kelly and I call "starers" and it's part of the game they play; we've learned how to roll with most of their punches. I wanted us here to take a current look at their silliness.

Well, if you're so awesome, where's your website? Where are the posted testimonials of people you've delivered? If you're so amazing and have done all these things, what's your name so we can research you. What are your professional credentials? Right now, I see some new person talking smack and incredibly rude, and declares every one here who believes the book a failure. Really, if this has been your thing for 50 years - where's your site and testimonials proclaiming this purported deliverance you bring the deluded masses? Why should we believe you? Why should we respect you? Show us your credentials and testimonials of people you have delivered.

legitimate or deluded according to what you think? sorry no one will play that game what's going on in their mind is none of your business

I just ignore all that junk these days, Sirg. no time for such non communication, even though there are words and even some things worth commenting on, if there was a better attitude