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Oh I agree with that whole heartedly, yes ! I just reacted without thinking, without stopping and thinking some more and even more "am I sure" and hurt someone I love. It wasn't with out feeling, however or without being sure of what I thought I believed at the time. Regardless it caused great damage that I'll forever remember and hope to not repeat in our relationship. So, yes, it can do more harm than good. Even a good therapist can do alot o harm if s/he and the client are not locked in pretty tightly, moving in the same direction. It's a tenious balance on the best day. I hope we learn and do better and as I've said about my life, I hope I get it right more than not. Communication, thinking through as much as possible, everything and hanging back sometimes til we react, YES~! And now I can say I'm getting a huge dose of remembering that acting and reacting are two very different animals. "It's all in the going......."

I think in some ways, Hiway29's post sums it up for me. Also, I had seen CG in action - literally hissing at a woman and going non-stop, the hate was vile. I wondered, what is going on here? It then dawned on me he was enjoying it! He was a sadistic SOB and I knew right then and there he was not, nor ever would be a "man of god." He was arrogant and aloof in the corps, basically had no friends and made himself a carbon copy of VP. They laughed together during his ordination - it was all very funny dontcha know, two special peas in a pod. I think of Goebbels and Hitler when I think of those two. Anyway, here comes this whiney, self-absorbed, look at me, oh, the struggles I've had to put up with, pity paper and I just thought, you bastard. Also, calling 90% of the corps possessed (I think he did that in one of his meetings) - then showing up, running to scotland, showing up again - the games he played. As to what was in the paper - basically dissing everyone - I think I realized - these people really are asshats. I'd had my suspicions, but now I knew. I know many people felt betrayed, the curtain was pulled back and the man behind the curtain, VP, was just a vindictive little man. People were now given permission in their minds to leave. I know people who had spent years, given up their homes, comfortable jobs, even spouses who now felt angry and betrayed - we gave our lives for this???!!! For many it was a first time glimpse behind the scenes and they did not like what they saw. Here was the man of God even insulting and putting down his own family for public display - what kind of a person does that? Also, as George said, people asked and asked for specifics - well, what exactly have the trustees done wrong? What have we done wrong? How can anyone expect to "change" or fix things if no one knew what it was that needed changing. It was all vague generalities. Here's the thing, you had a generation who had gotten involved at 15, 16 through early 20s, and after all those years they were now grown up - early thirties and more. I think, we finally just had enough of the bull. POP exposed it, and we said - we're outta here. Time to make a real life for ourselves. And most of us have.

I tend to agree 86-89 was more like one exodus. But to me - 86 was the "en masse" year - a huge chunk left. I went back in '87 to the Rock and corps week and realized there really wasn't anyone there I knew. Most of my 7th corps people were gone, plus many others I knew. I felt like a stranger. I was already mentally gone but was there out of "duty." I did go to the '88 one knowing full well it was my last. I think I wanted to take one last look around. There was really no one there I knew anymore. I spent two days and left - didn't bother finishing the corps week or the rock. I saw it for what it was and knew I was truly done. I think, for me, it was a closure thing. I wanted to see it one last time. I was 33 and had been visiting since I was teen in High School, had been on staff there, etc. So, it was a goodbye thing. Which was good as I never wanted over the years to go back and see it again. But, 86 after POP rocked our world. I remember telling my coordinator at evaluations I could not guarantee him I'd be around the next year. I think the majority booked in '86 and others felt like they could now do it safely. You have to remember the intense "peer pressure." But now, it was ok to leave. I think that was a move of God. I tried talking to the young kids there just starting out in the corps, and realized they were so sold out to LCM. I then realized, they would have to grow up like we did. That's when I think you saw the mass exodus after the Allen suit. Ten years or so, they had grown up and were now in their early 30s. Also a move of God I believe. I really think there were just two. People there now will never leave - unless forced.

Steve, I ran across the Overthrow of the Foundation idea from two books I read a few years ago: The Earth's Earliest Ages, by Pember, and The Invisible War by Donald Barnhouse. I've always liked that concept. Both available from Amazon. Both excellent books. It took a while to meander over there in my walk. I believe God gives us ideas, thought, musings, that if we follow up on, we are pleasantly surprised. Interesting writing on Paul. I look at the word "Logos" as an idea that has been given form. Like, the invisible man, you can't see him until he drapes himself with a blanket or something - then he is manifest - you can see him, his form. Christ was the "Logos" given form - the idea (the mind of God - his purposes and desires), made manifest - in the flesh. The flesh was the blanket, so to speak, giving shape to the Logos.

With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body of Christ talking amongst itself freely. This freedom was pretty much squelched in TWI. This thread will end when it ends and not until. We do not need a self-appointed arbitrator to tell us its time to end it now. Have a great day!

I'm not going to address whether people think they are inspired, inerrant or whatever, people will have their own opinion. I will just address what I think about the order of the NT cannon. Its just something I've kind of come up with over the years. Its also, really kind of simple. I look at the Book of Acts. Every single Book in the NT fits within the framework and timeline of Acts - except the Pauline "prison epistles." So, to me, Acts is a timeline. Christ was at the door ready to return, the Kingdom he would usher in was at hand. So, I look at the chronological timeline of Acts and the chronological order of the NT. For instance, we read about the Corinthians in Acts, people mentioned by name. We look at the Book of I Cor. and its written the same time and mentions the same people. So, on the Acts timeline, I paste Corinthians on there. Then, hey, mission to the Galations in Acts, put the Book of Galations on the Acts timeline there. And so on. To me, the NT books are appendages to Acts. They give more detail as to what was going on. Then, you hit Acts 28:28. Israel is set aside. Their rejection of their Redeemer, King and Kingdom is complete. its over for the time being. So, now you have the Pauline "prison epistles" written AFTER the Book of Acts. As the above poster said, there is a "new" revelation given to Paul. In the "Acts Epistles" as I like to call them, the ones that are in the Acts Chronological timeline - you do see Paul quote loads of OT scripture. Why? Because this was Israel's time and Israel's hope - he and the 12 Apostles were commissioned with opening the eyes of Israel and Gentiles were welcome to join in and become joint-heirs with Israel. But, it was still about Israel's Hope. Remember, Paul did not even receive revelation about the "One New Man" being created to abide in the Heavenlies during the time of the Book of Acts. It was revealed AFTER Acts 28:28. Thus, he was not teaching this in the Acts period because it had not yet been revealed. It was only after Israel's rejection, that later "Plan B" so to speak was revealed. That's why, you are correct. In Paul's epistles written in the years after the close of Acts (Eph., Col., Phil., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon - the "prison epistles") there is virtually no mention of the OT prophecies and prophets - why? Because Paul's revelation regarding new "heavenly citizens" came after the Book of Acts. This new heavenly population was a mystery "kept secret/hidden from before the foundation of the world." No one knew. Israel is in abeyance and Paul's mission is now to the Gentiles. Here Paul teaches those who believe will have a dwelling literally in the heavens. Whoa! That's not in the OT. Our blessings will be enjoyed - in the Heavenlies. Just as Israel's blessings will be enjoyed on the earth, we will literally have to be in the heavenlies to enjoy our blessings, as that is where our blessings are laid up in store for us - in the heavenlies. This teaching, this new revelation which is in Eph. was mindblowing to some and, since it could not be proved from the OT (because it wasn't there), many people turned away from him. Now, you also have the Book of Revelation which some think was written later after the Acts period, or some earlier - during the Acts period. I almost tend to think earlier, since Revelation is Israel's Hope - the return of the King in Glory and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth which was what they were looking for and talked about during Acts and the Epistles written during that period. I see the prison epistles as a parenthesis. If Israel had accepted the Apostles preaching their King would have returned and they would have stepped directly into the Book of Revelation - those events would have started. So, to me, Acts is the clothesline so to speak, and the NT books hang off of it in nice chronological precision, and enhance Acts with more detail - with the exception of Paul's Prison Epistles - they are after and beyond to a different group. And Revelation, as I said, I'm not sure where that one should be, but it is fascinating reading.

You asked, I thought it was a serious question. Ok, no more preaching.

Well, we do have over 30,000 Christian denominations, so I don't think you're going to see all Christians agreeing. I imagine that's why it is more important to God that we keep the unity of the Spirit - not the flesh. Sometimes I gotta admire the Catholic Church - they may not agree but after 1800 years or so - its still one church plugging along. Irish eyes, basically, the Bible has three divisions of people - Jew, Gentile, One Body (Church - age of grace). I was talking about "believers." Paul was sent to the Gentiles. The Gentiles of the world were blessed through Abraham. That's why Romans is so amazing. The Jews said - we are God's chosen and righteous under the law. They had been under the law for so long, they had forgotten that Abraham was called, made righteous and justified by faith a few hundred years before the law - i.e., when he was a gentile. So Paul in Romans says, I know this is hard for my fellow Jews to believe, but the Gentiles are now "grafted in." They can share fully in your Hope. Remember Abe? All is takes is simple faith - he was made righteous because he believed - not by the Law. Gentiles do not have to do the law to be righteous. Concerning "unbelievers" - here's the bottom line for me. We know, there is coming one day, a NEW Heaven and a New earth. It will be a brand new habitat. Maybe the laws of physics will be different - who knows, but it will be different. That's been the whole message of the Bible - a new Kingdom is coming, that's what Jesus preached and the Apostles. Those who live then will need a new body designed for this new place. When someone is born again he is sealed with spirit - he will have that eternal, immortal, different, changed, glorious new body. There will be no sin. God is Holy. He sent his Son to make us worthy. An "unbeliever", like a vegetarian who is repulsed by meat, is repulsed by God. For all people, eventually, a choice needs to be made - spend eternity with God - or no. Many will choose - no. Is that unfair of God? No. Why? because it would be unfair of Him to force that person to believe and love him. To force one to believe is coercion and grossly unfair and oversteps a man's free will. Will God "torture" them? No, God does not torture. But, all will see his glory. Every knee shall bow (whether they like Him or not). The only remorse one will have, who freely choose not to be with God for eternity, will be gnashing of teeth after they have seen glory - despair for what could have been, for what was rejected, for what was deliberately missed out on.

I haven't forgotten your question in doctrinal Robert, its a big topic, I need to find you a couple of good links. But, for me, I will explain. There is a phrase God uses a lot: Foundation of the World. It his dividing line so to speak, like bc/ad is for us on earth - before Christ, after Christ. Foundation of the World literally means "overthrow of the cosmos (Kosmos in greek). It is his dividing line for things that happened before, and things that happened later. For God, Gen. 1:1 and before - here creation had not fallen, angels hadn't fallen, all is still perfect. This is "before the Foundation of the World." From Gen 1:2 forward, after destruction, things have fallen, the earth is restored again and made habitable for man, that is "from" or "since" the Foundation of the World. Now, we can see certain groups of believers called in the Bible, from which period God purposed them, when they were called and where their eternal life will be. There are only 2 groups, or beings called from "before" the Foundation of the World. Christ, and us - those of us living in the age of Grace. God purposed us in eternity - Gen. 1:1 and before. Israel was called "from" or since the Foundation of the World - from Gen. 1:2 on. They will inherit the earth someday. Then you have the faithful "remnant" of Israel, like Abraham who looked for a heavenly city, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews talks about these people and there are others. This Heavenly Jerusalem will descend to earth from heaven someday and it will be the abode of the Jews who really believed - they didn't just rest on their laurels because they were God's chosen. I consider this group, the "Bride" - some will disagree and say the church today is the "Bride." Anyway. We see: 3 groups called in the Bible: Jew, Bride, Church which is the one body, the new man in the age of grace. 2 different time callings: Christ and Church of age of Grace - before the Foundation of the World. Israel and remnant - since or From the foundation of the World. 3 different spheres for eternity for each group: Jew - land, earth. Bride (faithful remant) - heavenly Jerusalem. One body - Heavenly places. So, each group has a different calling in time, a different hope, and a different abode for eternity. Its an interesting study. Ex-cath. I would never, ever put Paul above Christ - just sayin' :) All I'm saying is Israel rejected their Messiah. God reveals "Plan B" to Paul (thank God, that God had one - that's why its grace - he didn't have to - he could have let mankind stew in their own juices as they and the world "lies in the arms of the wicked one"). Its like God took a bunch of mangy mutts, bathed them and washed them (with Christ's blood), fluffed us up, clothed us, and said - "Come In" Welcome to my home. Whoa! That's grace. Its like, have you ever taken in a stray animal? You open the door for them to come in and they are like, really? I can come in? I can hasz cookie? (just kidding on that one). But, they are so grateful, someone allowed them in. Someone took them in. Grace. I believe in this day and age, one of the Holy Spirits functions is to give each individual the opportunity to believe. I believe every human is gently called, but not all respond. You responded :) Irish, it is about community! The One Body, the Unity of the Spirit (note its regarding spirit - I don't think God expects unity of politics, sports, liking the same things - we are all individuals). TWI failed in this aspect - we were all expected to think in lockstep. "Renewed mind" was what was used to beat this into us.

Awesome post Geisha. I think the Apostle Paul is important for several reasons. But first, a little background to explain why I think so. Remember, the 12 Apostles had been with Jesus on earth. They were sent to the Jewish people. Their message was "repent, the Kingdom of heaven come to earth is at hand. You crucified the Messiah, but he is still ready to come back." Remember, all Israel needs to repent and call on the Messiah for him to come back. If Israel had repented, we would have skipped over our current age of grace and gone on to Revelation - Christ would have come back as King. Things would be very different today. Israel did not believe. Now what? Who would have thunk Israel would have rejected the Messiah? All through Acts, Pauls Hope is Israel's Hope, as he states in Acts 26. He taught nothing other than "what the law and the prophets say." "I am in chains for the Hope of Israel." That's why, all of his epistles up through Acts 28 are loaded with OT scripture - he is able to show people that this was all prophesised. Read Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Thes., James, Jude, etc. - they believed the return was immanent and they would see it in their lifetime. That's why Peter had to address - hey, where is his coming? Its been years now. People were starting to wonder (I and II Peter). But, Israel refused to believe - now what? Now, Paul is commissioned to go to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28). Starting with Ephesians you can see something has happened, there has been a change. Paul, as he says in his own words, received a revelation from the risen, heavenly Christ. What was this great revelation? It was: God will take a people and house them with Him and His Son in Heaven for eternity - he will make a "new creation" a creation never seen. A people who will believe - even though they never saw. God will take a people for Heaven - above the heavenlies. This is why in the prison epistles (Eph., Col, Phil., Timothy, Titus & Philemon) virtually no OT scripture is quoted. Why? Because this was Paul's revelation, shown to him by the risen Christ kept secret from before the Foundation of the World. This revelation is not in the OT, nor was it ever prophesised. Thus, he can't prove it. He cannot "prove" this new revelation. We just have to believe him and learn about it in his prison epistles. Why did all asia turn away from him at the end? Because for Jewish Christians - it was nonsense, Paul could not prove this out of the OT, and it was ludicrous for them to think God would take gentiles (aliens, strangers and with no hope in the world), and give them this amazing grace and mercy - who ever heard of a people in heaven for eternity???? He's crazy. Maybe Paul was, maybe he wasn't. Our heavenly citizenship is our Hope - the Hope of the new creation. Our hope is not land, and a kingdom on earth. So the Christian now has a choice - believe what Paul said in his prison epistles, or no. Its like the movie the Matrix - here's a blue pill, here's the red pill. Do you want to take the pill and go further (i.e., believe Paul's revelation) or no? Many people do not believe Paul's revelation. Fine. To me, this age of grace was a secret from before the foundation of the world. It is the cherry on top, it is the tip of the pyramid put into place - it is the fullness of God's revelation. But, Paul couldn't "prove" it with scripture from the OT. Thus, all turned away. As many have done today. And as many Christians have appropriated Israel's Hope for themselves. So, I think Paul was an important guy, and I believe his wacky revelation and think its important for other Christians to. "Be it unto you according to your believing." I really do not look at heaven as one large arena we'll all be herded into for eternity. I believe there are different places. If you truly, truly believe you are not a citizen of heaven (i.e., do not believe Paul's revelation), well, maybe you will enjoy Israel's hope here on earth. I think, just as Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteouness when God promised his seed would populate the earth, I think when Paul believed the revelation he was given, it was counted to him for righteouness and he was the first Citizen of Heaven. He is our apostle of this new revelation - the mystery. I choose to take the pill and explore the heavenlies someday.

"A cow. . . or a God who parts the Red Sea. . . . it is all the same" They went with the cow. - LOL!!!! I love that - too funny.

No problem RobertErasmus. I do very much enjoy your sharings. But I do like the doctrinal section here and don't want anyone to be intimidated to say what they think. Of course there are going to be disagreements. The doctrinal section here to me is simply the Body of Christ talking among itself. And its lovely. Its also something we never could have done in TWI because we were all in lockstep to VPs doctrine. I find it very interesting where people's spiritual quests have taken them after TWI and how their view of the Bible has evolved. I think God works with us in different ways. Yes, I know exactly what my view of the Bible is called and trust me, I didn't arrive there overnight, it was more like decades - but I see it in everything I read in the Bible - to me - it is obvious. To others - something else is obvious. As I said, we are the Body of Christ talking among ourselves, and I love it.