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With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body of Christ talking amongst itself freely. This freedom was pretty much squelched in TWI. This thread will end when it ends and not until. We do not need a self-appointed arbitrator to tell us its time to end it now. Have a great day!

Steve, You have said, “Holding to inerrancy is foolish on three counts. First, even if the original autographs were perfect, we don't have the orinal autographs, and there is no way to recover them. Two, even if the Bible were perfect, NO person's interpretation of it could be perfect, with the possible exception of Jesus Christ's. Third, if God committed His entire Self to a book, He would be putting Himself into an awfully small box.” The inerrancy issue is very important to some who do think the the originals were “perfect”. I’m not sure if that makes us fools or not. How does that word “perfect” actually flesh out in the handling of our present texts? This is why there are institutes of higher learning on the subject (Evangelical Bible colleges, seminaries even some divinity schools). Degrees in the field of textual criticism, hermeneutics and languages. Its not necessarily an easy task. Especially when the prophets are spread out over such a long period of time, etc., etc. Further, some think that the autographa is possible to recover. Does this remove the thorny issues of the pre-scientific prophets or the forms in which the texts come to us with their eastern cultural backwash, figures of speech, individual ways of expression, etc? No, but neither does that further daunting task frustrate the effort to recover (as best as possible) words that matter. Some pursue the holy grail of the “perfect” interpretation of the “perfect” text. That systematic theology, a demanding discipline and one fraught with dialogue. It was (and is) my favorite thing to do. It is actually getting out into the world practically what one has discovered is doctrinally sound. It’s not all academics, but certainly starts there. The end has to be bringing “deliverance to the captives” IMHO, or all the academics is pretty much BS. I believe God has limited Himself (at times) to our living for Him. If that is “putting Himself in an awfully small box”, than I agree we have some work to do. And that starts with making sure we are “fools for Christ” and hopefully the pontificators will “put up with fools, being so wise yourselves”, as Paul admonished the Corinthians. As to your statement in your most recent post (#402) (“I think the Bible is only a secondary witness to confirm or deny what we think God is communicating with us through the spirit. Even so, we still have to exercise judgment. To think that the Bible is our primary channel for hearing from God, and to treat it as inerrant, is to shirk from exercising judgment, and to cut ourselves off from the spirit.”), I think that the testimony of Scripture (looking at Jesus and the other prophets) is that they relied on the texts as much as we should. I know Jesus did. You can’t be speaking Psalms 22, 23 and 24 as you’re being crucified and not have that healthy respect to the "finer points". Judgement comes when you have something in mind and can press other thoughts up against that. If you don’t start with something (say the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures) then one will be all over the map trying to figure out what his/her real beliefs are. That being said, if a Muslim or Hindi wants to start with their own text fine, but Christianity usually starts with their texts and “judges” accordingly. And I don’t think that this cuts us off from the spirit in any way, but rather gives direction as to where that spirit might go or might be speaking or taking us. I'm thinking a life led following that spirit is the most exciting (I'm thinking Philip and the eunuch, Elisha and Elijah, Jesus...). In a very subtle sentence in 1 John, he says to “test” the spirits (kinda a combination of both the text and your spirituality, IMHO). I love that combination. Saw it last night at my son’s church in Manhattan as the pastor’s program of hitting the streets actually allowed the kids to “see” things and deliver a women from her maladies because they acted on what they saw. If they didn’t know about receiving revelation (outlined as it is in the Bible) they wouldn’t have even stepped out into the whatever… RE

I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex.. It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of his name.. I think he knew nobody would give him that kind of allegiance the vicster somehow conned out of people..

I never said you "had a screw loose" or were "out to lunch" or were "a couple fries short of a happy meal", or anything of the sort. You said this: "It either is inerrant or it isn't. . . . . you either believe it is or you don't" See, this is the problem. If something is a Palomino Pony, for example, it really makes no difference what I believe it is. It doesn't change reality one tiny bit. It still gallops and kicks up its hooves. You believe it's inerrant. I don't. What does that really change? Nothing, as far as I can see. Unless, of course, we're talking about an organization, like The Way, whose beliefs on the matter had a direct effect on peoples' day to day lifestyle. "If one little piece doesn't fit, the whole thing falls to pieces." By that sort of reasoning, I would need to have a vested interest in making sure any contradictions or discrepancies are resolved. Sorry----I don't subscribe to that train of thought anymore.

For those who may be interested, I came across a couple of good books in the last year or two. The first one was Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible by Karel van der Toorn (2007), and the second was The Oral and the Written Gospel by Werner H. Kelber (1983). Both books go into the realities of the transmission of ideas in cultures where the vast majority of people cannot read or write, and they respectively consider how the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" may have come into written form. The principles and ideals of writing were vastly different in antiquity than they were in the 19th century, when the fundamentalist response to radical rationalism came into being. I no longer believe in verbatim inspiration of the Scriptures, though I believe God can use them as an objective base for teaching individuals the things He wants them to know. I think Jesus' ministry was only a year or so long, mainly because I don't think he could have held the crowds at such a fever pitch for much longer than that without raising a rebellion against the Romans or crapping out (which, from an earthly point of view, he did). I think there are many interesting things to learn by considering the similar incidents in the different gospels, especially thinking about why the incidents might have been recorded differently in the gospels' differing contexts, but I don't think a literal harmony is possible. Love, Steve

I frequently hear people say they are thankful they learned some good "stuff" in The Way. Like what, specifically? Reading things in context? Weren't we supposed to have learned that already in jr. high school English class? Even so, The Way may have told you to read things in context but then they set a lasting example of how to cherry pick scriptures to make their point. So then what, specifically, are all these good things that people learned in The Way?

Yanno,... I was thinking the same thing not long ago...

Okay,... So the Missus was - but no longer is, in a cult, She was "Rescued" That verbage makes me think circa ~ 1973-8 And stories I've read about "deprogrammers". I'm reading this "Deprogrammers". It's a WAG I'll admit, and I wasn't born till 1980, on Sept 11th BTW, which was only September the 11th back then. ...oh it's not funny and no 911 wasn't the Muslim world's Birthday Present to Jesus....... So stuff it...! Still My question went to the old Guilt by association thing (as others have surmised),... besides, Not even the Way trained People to fly airplanes into buildings Or was that the Secret LEAD Air Corps.... Maybe they can dig up some dirt on the family Dog too........ Also strange is that this woman found someone this "My WAY or the Airways... macho about life" ...says volumes too - just not about the dude, who was an obvious nut-job!