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I have logical reason to believe the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" was exactly what God said it was! People everywhere seem to have misunderstood this tree. (Whether it was symbolic or real, the lesson is still valid - so for the sake of argument, let us suppose for now it was a real tree of some kind.) Even the "serpent" (the devil in disguise) knew what would result from eating fruit of that tree: He said, "You will be as gods, knowing good and evil." (hence, the tree of knowledge of good and evil) But God had commanded Adam not to eat of it, preferring he ate from the “tree of life” instead. Taking shorcuts in life is not always the best thing to do. God would prefer if we learned life's lessons little by little, as we can handle it. We build slowly and carefully, allowing our learning to be based upon previous experiences. The greatest oak trees grow like this - naturally over time! They say "Rome wasn't built in a day." - How true - Well, we aren't supposed to either! Eating of the "tree of life" is like allowing this process of growing to be just as found in nature - we learn life's lessons a little bit at a time, as God allows it for each individual. This works best for us because we are only responsible for a "bit" of knowledge at a time, and how we handle situations is based upon experience. What we don't know is "not held against us". (A good teacher would not even think of giving a calculus test to her first-grade class!) Do we come out of the womb full grown? Why not? 'CAUSE WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO! But what Adam and Eve did was WRONG. They ate of the "forbidden fruit" - and took a HORRIBLE SHORTCUT - the EASY WAY through life! They wanted everything now without having to work for it! All of a sudden - they KNEW TOO MUCH! It was just as the serpent had told them, except they suddenly realized that "being like gods" wasn't such a good idea after all! Somehow, they had become aware of EVERYTHING GOOD AND EVERYTHING EVIL. But the problem was that they couldn't handle it, because it was all "head knowledge" without being "tempered by experience", the way knowlegde should have been. This sort of reminds me of a line by Jack Nicholson as General Jessep in A Few Good Men: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" No wonder the scripture says, "And the eyes of them both were opened..." and later: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." How would you like to instantly understand EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING WRONG? (Especially for Adam who had done the only thing God said not to do!) How do you like it when people point out all your faults? What would you do if you were presently aware of EVERY POSSIBLE SIN you had done, or are doing - every stray thought - every nuance? I would feel so condemned, I would just like to crawl into a hole somewhere and hide! Becoming responsible for too much all at once without experience to handle it with is SHEER FOLLY! Let us learn to be patient as we learn life "a little bit at a time", for God has promised that He will "not allow something to come your way which you cannot yet handle with what you presently understand". (paraphrase of 1Co 10:13) Is 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Does this seem to make sense to anyone besides me? SPEC :)

Ok, I also think of it this way. God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Ark with Israel. His Glory shone and rested on the Mercy Seat between the Cheribum. When the Temple was built, God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Holy of Holies - his Glory shone between the Cheribum. It seems no one has a problem with the concept that God dwelt in the Ark and in the Temple with Israel. Jesus' name was: Emmanuel - God with us. God now tabernacled in the flesh. Exact same concept as dwelling in the ark and temple, except now the dwelling is flesh. Flesh was now God's tabernacle - dwelling. Christ - God with us - dwelling in the living, breathing, Flesh. Our kinsman-redeemer. That is awesome. His temple and dwelling place was now in "a body thou hast prepared for me" - flesh.

DARN IT ALL MARK! I read your 12-page commentary. For the most part, it was very well done! However, I am astounded that you entirely missed the point that it is THE BELIEVER who "wills" to operate these! I quote from your article: Finally, there is only one God who not only gives, but determines. The last words of verse 11 state “and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines” (NIV). We see in this verse a giver, who we already know from the scriptures is God, and a receiver who weknow is man. Now of the two whom do you think determines? “As he (God) determines” also fits with the immediate context of this chapter. With all your wonderful knowledge and experience of using Greek lexicons, concordances, etc, (as shown in your 12-page treatise) I am truly AMAZED that you could still say it is God who determines what each believer operates - WHETHER HE BELIEVES OR NOT! How could you possibly entirely miss the point I made about IDIOS, (his own), translated erroneously as "severally" in 1Co 12:11? With all your research experience, don't you see that the phrase "dividing to every man severally as he will" correctly translates into dividing to "every man his own as he will"? Why did you choose to focus solely on the NIV version "and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines"? You even know yourself that the New International Version is NOT RENDERED faithfully from the Critical Greek Texts, but "paraphrased throughout", according to what the translators THOUGHT IT MEANT! And isn't that a prime example of PRIVATE (idios) INTERPRETATION, which is contrary to the very first thing God would have us to know? I am astounded at you. I said at the beginning of my "long post" that I had done this "once and for all." I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again! I am sure you are very knowledgeable of the scriptures. In that event, let me remind you sir: This post is your "second admonition"... SPEC :) PS: I was also a personal friend of Peter J. Wade as well (many years ago). I do not believe even he would concur with your idea of God making us to be like "puppets on a string"!

This is RIGHT ON "in my book", soul searcher! Wisdom is the very foundation of beginning to learn and apply the other manifestations - IT IS KEY! Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. SPEC :)

I remember that well, Waysider. And didn't LCM take it to a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL when he expounded (in the "new class", "The Way of Abundance and Power" - 1995) about the sin really being Eve in a lesbian relationship with the serpent, who had taken on the "form of a woman"! He even found some related artwork ("Temptation and Fall", by Miche) to "prove his point": [Click to enlarge] Perhaps LCM had "carnal knowledge" (LOL) of what may have been going on between his wife Donna and the current "president" (RFR), and was making some attempt at reproof. (?) SPEC :)

You'd be surprised what you can see about science, evolution and "the ice age" from the Bible. I have a book coming out soon. (My first!) It will be called, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents". Although you probably won't agree with it totally, many things you have brought up are addressed and explained logically. It should be ready for release around November. SPEC :) PS: And why did you SIDESTEP the issue at hand? I asked you to comment on: "Do they (parents) know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy?" Did you avoid this because it makes "too damn much sense"? Maybe perhaps because you don't have a proper and logical response? In an "honest debate", you STICK TO THE ITEM AT HAND - not just go "somewhere else" and start a new "argument" while the other is still there! You said yourself (in your signature): The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. Proverbs 14:6 (NIV) Sounds to me like you may be a "mocker".

Dearest Gen-2 You must never, ever allow yourself to believe you are "damaged from the factory",. We are what we are. Some of us have more fingers and toes than others. Some of us have less. Some can charm a nightingale with their song while others can peel paint. Some have one eye that just sits there taking up space, while others pop on the 3-d glasses and take great delight in movies like Avatar. But, spiritually? Nope. I don't buy it. If you are a God believing type of person, it might interest you to know that "God is no respecter of persons."

I rather like it with mint jelly.

Forgive me soul searcher, but you almost sound like you believe God intentionally set man up "for a fall". Do you suppose the same thing is true when wise and mature parents instruct their children? Do they know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy? SPEC :)

Please forgive the length of this post, but I considered it important enough to share what I have on the manifestations (of the gift of holy spirit) once and for all - in detail... When were born physically, the seed contained all that we needed. All the potential for what we were to become was inherent in the seed from our father (and in what the mother contributed as well). After being born we were nourished with food, etc, and grew. The new birth is just like that. All that we need for our spiritual life is contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] from God. We receive the one gift of holy spirit which alone carries with it all the potential for living spiritually. (I call this our "spiritual DNA".) There has been literally no end of confusion among many Christians by supposing we need to receive something extra for our spiritual life – they erroneously call these "the gifts of the spirit". We shall see that we already have all of these to begin with – and that God calls these manifestations, not gifts. To see this we will be looking very closely at 1Co 12: 1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [text is pneumatikos – spiritual matters, things of the spirit], gifts [the word gifts is not in the text] brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Now, spiritual matters do include gifts, but not all spiritual matters are gifts. God has devoted three entire chapters (1Co 12-14) to cover the subject of spiritual matters. We see the context come to a close in the following verse: 1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. So we see that God started by saying he doesn’t want us to be ignorant concerning spiritual matters, and concluded by saying that if anybody doesn’t want to hear about it, then just leave him alone – let him be ignorant. Christian teachers are not to force feed anyone. If someone is hungry and asks, then we feed him until he says he has had enough to eat – this is the only polite way to be! 1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. God continues to instruct the Corinthians about some spiritual matters. Then in verse 4 He mentions the word gifts – [Greek is charisma – from this we get our English word charismatic, meaning gifted.] We must watch the context very closely to look for any changes. Now we are talking about gifts (which are included within spiritual matters). Next, we will see about administrations and operations, which are also spiritual matters: 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Now, in the next verse, watch how it changes! 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Notice we have now changed the context from gifts and administrations and operations to the manifestation of the spirit. It is the Greek word phanerosis, not charisma (gift)! And it says, but the manifestation. This word but sets this in stark contrast to that which preceded. It goes on to say that this is given to every man. This cannot mean that everyone on the planet has it! We must remember that in the context God is talking to "brethren" (verse 1). Brothers have the same father. God is talking to his children; they are the ones which have the ability to manifest this spirit. The others do not even have it to begin with. So, it says the manifestation of the spirit – that means all of it – anything which may be manifested (or evidenced) by way of the spirit. One final (but very, very important) note on this verse: The purpose of the (entire) manifestation of this spirit (given to all of God’s kids) is to profit withal… see it again: 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. This means that the overall purpose is for every man (and collectively, the entire body of Christ as well) to profit all the way through, so that all the manifestation is evidenced – not just a part of it. Now comes the tricky part. Most Christians are taught that the verses following are talking about individuals (for to one…to another…to another). How can God say that all the manifestation is given to every man, and then turn right around and say that one piece is given to one man and another piece to another man, etc? Well, he doesn’t! In grammar, the phrase to prophet withal is an infinitive phrase. The words which follow must connect with this phrase to further elaborate on it. This is what verses 8-10 do. God has structured this very wonderfully. First, in verse 7 he makes it plain that every man (believer) may bring forth (all) the manifestation of the (gift of) spirit, so that he may make full use of it in every way – to profit withal – all the way through. Having said that, he now breaks the entire manifestation up into its nine separate categories. Each one of these profits a little by itself; and what you have when you put them all together is to profit withal – by manifesting all of them! Then in verse 11, God brings the context right back to where he started in verse 7, putting them all back together again and telling us more about it as a whole unit again. In fact, verse 11 has some very illuminating truth in it as well! 1Co 12:8 For [the reason why we can profit withal is:] to one [one way to profit a little] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [more profit] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another [even further profit] faith by the same Spirit; to another [even more!] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another [and more] the working of miracles; to another [and more] prophecy; to another [getting bored?—ha ha] discerning of spirits; to another [even more profit] divers kinds of tongues; to another [lastly] the interpretation of tongues: [now we have it all!] 11 But all these… A note of explanation is due about one of these, however. You may have noticed that the manifestation of healings is also called a gift (gifts of healings). This is simply because it is the only one of these which is also a gift. In the first (or natural) birth, God graciously endowed our physical bodies with the ability to heal themselves. A doctor might reset a broken bone, but it is self-mending. The same is true with cuts, scrapes, and a host of other things. We may provide medications, salves, ointments, and bandages, etc, but the healing process itself has been built in. The body of Christ is no different. God has built this into our new birth. Basically, in order to manifest this one, a person has to operate it by asking God if a gift is there to have. If it is, and the recipient is believing for it, then it will be manifested (come into concretion in the senses realm). Such was the case in Act 3:6: Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. Spiritually, Peter had asked God if there was a gift for the lame man, and there was. We know he received this gift of healing from God when he said "such as I have give I thee". He received this gift from God and gave it to the believing man and he was healed. Healing is always a gift – if it is there, then fine – if not, God has a reason. I should say, however, one is usually available when the receiver is truly believing for it. Moving on now… 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The above verse requires quite a bit of explanation in light of how it has been portrayed of late; and the trend is getting worse and worse with each new translation that comes along! We just saw how God has made all of these available to every man so he can operate this gift to its full extent, profiting in every category. But ministers and teachers the world over have tried to make this verse sound as if God picks and chooses who gets what. And for the most part, it usually winds up that their students do not believe sufficiently enough to operate any of them! Those that are blessed enough to have one or the other are many times so blessed and thankful that to them it might seem greedy to have more of them, supposing that their fellow believers would have those ones, and together somehow they could enjoy all of them as a group. Surely, it does work this way in practice. Many people do have their specialties and long suits among these, and many times deliverance comes to people when Christians operate together as a team, but to deny a Christian his full potential by teaching wrongly is a pitiful shame! The truth is, God wants each of his children to enjoy operating all of these, while the devil wants just the opposite. If he can talk Christians out of believing they have all of this power, then that’s just less worry for him that every one of God’s kids just might manifest enough to stomp all over him and his host of devil-spirit helpers! In my humble opinion, 1Co 12:11 has been translated horribly in many versions. For your enlightenment, below are some of the renderings. Please forgive me for the long list; I merely wanted the reader to see just how rampantly out of control this verse has become over the years. It is difficult to find any new version these days which is rendered accurately, and it appears that many of them just make it up as they go, text or not! Only the first two are actually faithful to the text. (Do take note of the intentional capitalization of the pronoun "he" in many of these.): =============================================================== A Comparison of I Corinthians 12:11 among various versions: (AV – 1611 King James) 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (Revised Standard) 11 All these are inspired by one the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (Living Bible) 11 It is the same and only Holy Spirit who gives all these gifts and powers, deciding which each one of us should have. (GWV – God’s Word to the Nations) 11 There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person. (Weymouth) 11 But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will. (New International Version) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (New American Standard Bible) 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (Amplified Bible) 11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses. (New Living Translation) 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. (Contemporary English Version) 11 But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us. (New King James Version) 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (New Century Version) 11 One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person. (21st Century King James Version) 11 But all of these that one and the selfsame Spirit worketh, apportioning to every man individually as He will. (Young's Literal Translation) 11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth. (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills. (New International Reader's Version) 11 All of the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives them to each person, just as he decides. (New International Version - UK) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (Today's New International Version) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. (Worldwide English (New Testament)) 11 And the same Spirit gives the power for all these things. He gives each person what he wants to give to them. =============================================================== That was quite a list! After reading all those, one just might wonder if God is really the one who chooses after all, just because there are so many versions which say that. I tell ya what – put a thousand counterfeit dollar bills that all look alike next to just one good bill – and the good bill is still the only true one! Now, we will see exactly what this verse is saying by taking a closer look at it, considering the words I have put in italics: 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The verb worketh is the Greek word energeo, from which we derive our English word energize, and Spirit is referring to God himself. It is God who provides the energy to bring these to pass in the physical realm. The word dividing simply means distributing. So far, the verse is saying, But all these are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit (God), distributing to every man… As noted earlier, we know every man refers to brethren, the born-again believers. Now comes the interesting phrase, severally as he will Does the pronoun "he" refer to God or to the man? It seems to most people that it could be either one. But we cannot afford to just guess and hope we are correct! That is not doing honest research. If we know just a little about English grammar, we can readily see that it should refer to the man, which is the "closest antecedent" to the pronoun he. However, I have found that this is usually not enough proof for most people because those who actually enjoyed learning about grammar in school seem to be but a few. So we will "dig a bit deeper" to see the truth here… The word severally is the Greek word idios. This word appears over one hundred times in the Greek New Testament, and is usually translated one’s own, his own, her own, its own, etc. Below is an example of this word idios when it was translated private: 2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Since the word private is idios, the verse might be rendered, …"no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation", which means that we are not to just interpret it however we want to. As the author of the Bible, God has been very diligent to make himself perfectly clear to those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, instead of reading into it on their own (idios). We can easily see how the translators were accurate in rendering idios as private here; if it is someone’s private matter, it is essentially his own matter. In fact, we get our English word idiosyncrasy from it, which is "anyone’s own particular or peculiar way of doing things". And again, God does not wish us to interpret his scriptures this way; he said this is the first thing we need to know! Now, back to 1Co 12:11… 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. This is the only verse in the Bible where the translators rendered idios as severally. Personally, I believe it obscures the entire meaning from view. Why weren’t they consistent with the rest of the places where they translated it one’s own, or in this case, his own? Consider what it is really saying now: …dividing to every man his own as he will. The word "he" refers to the man – and one doesn’t even need to be a grammar nut to see that now! And this fits in context with all we have seen from verse 7 on. God had said that "the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit all the way through", making full use of the gift of holy spirit he gave to us. He then broke it up into nine components, showing that each one has its unique profit. And now in verse 11 he has put them all back together as a unit, explaining to us that he will energize each one of these as we will. It is our responsibility and privilege to operate this gift of holy spirit in all of its parts as we will – that is to say, as we desire or as we believe. It is up to us to endeavor to find out about each of these and put them to use. If we don’t, they just won’t happen on their own, for God only energizes them as the man wills. And even for all of this explanation, I am sure there are many who either don’t get it, or will even refuse to because they just cannot let go of what they have been taught already. So just why are these things true? The very next verse tells us! 1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. As we see above, the next verse begins with for, which gives the reason for what he has shown thus far about his children utilizing all of the manifestations – making full use of the his gift of holy spirit. God is now going to explain these things by using the analogy of our human bodies to show us that physical things have been designed very similar to spiritual things, so we can relate them and get some wonderful understanding. In a normal birth a baby has a body and all the physical parts to go with it. (feet, hands, ears, eyes, a nose, etc.) When you read from verse 13 on, you will see that these same parts are also incorporated into the body of Christ as well, in the spiritual sense. Let us not complicate matters. For now, let us keep it simple. Each one of the born-again believers has Christ in him: Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God’s son, and we are also now God’s children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2). First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand. Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him. SPEC :)