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Let's break it down, shall we? Starting with verse 4: *There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. *There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. *There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. *Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. *To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, *to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, *to another faith by the same Spirit, *to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, *to another miraculous powers, *to another prophecy, *to another distinguishing between spirits, *to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, *and to still another the interpretation of tongues. *All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. Two messages seem to jump out at me: 1. Not everyone has all the gifts of holy spirit, thus not everyone has all the manifestations. 2. Humankind is a community...no man is an island...we depend on each other...just as the different parts of our bodies make up the whole, so do individuals make up the community of mankind to work for the "common good." So why do the TWI, CES/STF and CFFM organizations all insist that God wants all of us to speak in tongues? Given the verses above, nothing could be further from the truth. Chapter 14 goes on to tell us that it is preferrable to prophecy rather than SIT because SIT isn't of use to anyone who hears it except God, while those who prophecy "speak to men...for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort."

Six more weeks of winter. Oh well.. http://www.groundhog.org

I don't miss the guilt I used to have for "tripping out" on the "one true household". That-----and wheat berries!

So much I don't miss. I don't miss the lies, the lying, the twisting of EVERthing. I don't miss dancing their dance and never knowing the steps. I don't miss having to be in so many places at once to cover so many things at once. I don't miss listening to their bullshi+ dressed up as something else like no one could figure out it was shi+. I don't miss worrying every damn day if tomorrow was going to show up. I don't miss wondering if my marriage was going to sustain the stress. I don't miss the questions that never got answered or the answers that never even had a question to begin with. I don't miss the people the look straight at me and told me they loved me when they didn't. I don't miss the concern of knowing at any moment I might lose everything, including my children. I don't miss having information in my head that I couldn't tell anyone. I don't miss The Way International; at all.

As a former U.S. Marine I now find the old TWI comparison w/ the Marines to be highly objectionable. The Marines are a legitimate organization have a well worn path (consistent throughout world history) of being a military force to serve and protect it's country. Then TWI comes along and cons people (including me) into the comparison between itself and the Marines. The Marines I recall were made up of unique and strong individualistic individuals who needed to be strong people to maintain themselves under the duress of a lifestyle that was extremely challenging. And while within our very own U.S. there are many people who view the military as a place where indiviualism is discouraged I recall it as a place where idividualism thrived. And as far as military justice goes, anybody who sexually abused women and beat down idividualistic individuals as blatantly as Wierwille did would have suffered one of several possible fates at the hand of military justice IMO; including dishonerable discharge with resultant prison time, and more unofficial and possibly more permanent end (especially if his true animalistic nature came out w/in a combat situation).

Sunesis, Basically, with the above portion of your post, you catch where I'm coming from quite right! :) Thank you. Well, I don't accept 'the original premise', 'thus' the need for me to have a redeemer ... is gone. Problem solved. ;)

I have come to realize there are some Bible and spiritual things in this life I just don't know and never will and I am okey dokey with that. H-e-doublehockeysticks, I don't need to have all the answers. If I did, I might be too smart for my own britches and lose sight of all the folks in this world that need love and help. I can not fathom looking at my fellow man as fallen or unworthy. That is why religion makes me puke. Most Christian religious denominations never go anywhere to help anybody without the mindset that those they intend to help are just that. The only reason they want to help them is to convert them. Do you think they would just go and help without that intent? Oh, let's feed them, clothe them, teach them to read so they can convert to Christianity. WEll, I love everybody and I wasn't picking on anybody here. All this scripture bantering back and forth made me think of something I encountered today. So I just had a few things to say ...oohhhkaaaaaaay.

Mark, Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject? (A concept which is listed in the Bible, by the way) See, this was one of the things that I never considered re: the Adam and Eve in the garden with the snake situation until recently. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (<-- interestingly named by the way ;)) else they shall surely die (which is Clue #1 that I never considered before). Adam & Eve talk to the talking snake (which admittedly is definitely in the Weird Feng Shui Dept., I'll grant you that ), and take him up on his (ahem) 'bite my apple' offer. As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day. All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.) THAT is where the moral/ethics in this doctrine really takes a nosedive. You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment? ... of the entire human race?? :unsure: ... and even if God "sent his only begotten son to pay the price for (said) sin"? ... a price that God Himself had set to begin with? ... which leads back to my original point here. Let the punishment fit the crime. <_<