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Tom, Being the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't change it from being a tree in any event. That being said, I can imagine that the whole Adam & Eve and the Tree account is (by and large) more an allegory, illustration, or whatever, more than just a literal account (and that's for those who believe in it in the first place). But if you read the rest of what I said, I believe I illustrated what the real problem was: setting aside whatever interpretation one might have of the incident re: Adam & Eve, ... that the punishment extended to the whole human race. (And now you throw in treason against God as Yet Another Reason to support this doctrine? ((snickers)) ) ... and the punishment _still_ didn't fit the crime, particularly when you consider that the punishment extended to the whole human race. Sunesis, Yeah? Well, as long as the believers keep coming up with s**t like that, ... there won't. And I note, with irony, that when all the specific arguments supporting some presumed-to-be-true theology are effectively shot down, argued against, or even questioned, then you guys always hide behind the "Well, it's one of those 'spiritual things' that you unbelievers just cannot understand. It's just something you have to take upon on faith." style arguments, coupled with the pretentious facade of being 'morally offended' that we unbelievers have the unmitigated *gaul* of bringing up these challenges (and in public, no doubt! :blink: How _dare_ we?) of your doctrine and faith to begin with. Ie., "Who are you to question God!?" and other such flatulence. Like I say in my status update: "Nahh. We aren't 'unworthy critters'. We ain't 'gods' either. ... We are simply human beings, with all the positive and negative. But we ain't unworthy." Works for me. :B)

There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't. As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen man as if someone had thrown paint on the Pieta, or slashed and spattered paint on the Mona Lisa - a masterpiece that has been marred, spoilt - ruined, fallen. I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today. When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins. I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand. God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.

It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.

Mark, Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject? (A concept which is listed in the Bible, by the way) See, this was one of the things that I never considered re: the Adam and Eve in the garden with the snake situation until recently. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (<-- interestingly named by the way ;)) else they shall surely die (which is Clue #1 that I never considered before). Adam & Eve talk to the talking snake (which admittedly is definitely in the Weird Feng Shui Dept., I'll grant you that ), and take him up on his (ahem) 'bite my apple' offer. As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day. All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.) THAT is where the moral/ethics in this doctrine really takes a nosedive. You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment? ... of the entire human race?? :unsure: ... and even if God "sent his only begotten son to pay the price for (said) sin"? ... a price that God Himself had set to begin with? ... which leads back to my original point here. Let the punishment fit the crime. <_<

How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey? Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation. God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.

I'm with Cman.. Who says man has fallen. Fallen where? If he fell into a pit, get him out! People sure try and paint God into some weird corners.. And it makes him look stupid too.. Bout as stupid as saying God wouldn't forgive your sins unless Christ died (or worse yet, he had himself killed cause he was unwilling to firgive. lol. Suicide due to being unforgiving.)... What moron does that? A smart God would just forgive them! Geez....

Loved your entire post, Mark! Especially the "list of differences" between God and Jesus. And thank you for explaining how people believe the "holy trininty". I can see their confusion now, clear as day! It's not really as though there is "one God in three persons" as they say they believe, but the way they handle it, it is as though there are three distinct Gods: One God Who created the universe, one God Who (when it is convenient for Him) calls Himself "His own son", and one "rather mysterious" God whose refers to Himself as "The Holy Spirit". It rather reminds me of Greek Mythology where there was a "god for everything"...but Paul distinctly pointed out (as you also showed) that there is ONE GOD. Speaking of "many Gods", it reminded me of a humorous ancedote that happened at work one time. I was talking with one of my friends (who was Catholic) and he showed me a "medal" he was wearing around his neck. He explained that there are several of these for "various occasions". This one was "St. Anthony of Padua", who (among other things) is "the Patron Saint of lost items". He said if you lose something, all you have to do is rub it and say a prayer, and you will find the item soon. So I quipped: "What would happen if you lost the medal? What could you possibly do then?" He looked very puzzled for a few moments. Then he said, "That's not a problem! I'd just go and buy another one." So I agreed with him, saying, "That's exactly what I would do if I lost something. I would do my best to find it, but if I couldn't, I would just go and buy another one." Then we both laughed. Despite our religious differences, we were still friends. I like that. SPEC :)

Here's a question, or, how would you solve this dilemma? Mankind has fallen. You would like to redeem mankind. You need a "Kinsman-Redeemer" - i.e., flesh must redeem flesh. Yet, flesh cannot redeem flesh, God must redeem. What do you do? How do you, as God, redeem Mankind?

Hi Everyone, Had to put a post up on this. Recently, I have switched beliefs from what TWI taught and the trinity. I did a lot of reading about the early church fathers, the different forms of belief that was being promoted, including Arian beliefs. And I started comparing what was promoted as the Trinity with the Bible. I could not refute at all. And so now I am a trinitarian and I am soooo glad I am. I feel like I am "home" spiritually. It's just the most awesome deal! TWI put down the trinity, when TWI didn't have a correct definition. Tape after tape, teachings by clergy, teaching by believers actually making fun of the Trinity. Things being said like, well Who was JC talking to if he was God? Himself? And, If JC was God then he is sitting on his own right hand...and plenty more things that were said. Their understanding, if I could call it that, was in error. I found out what the early fathers defined it as and then saw the errors of what was being promoted by the different sects back then. Compared it to the bible, without all the scratch outs, and all the inserts....and I could not come to any other conclusion, but that JC was God. AND, I just want to say, once I saw it, I was just really set free. I feel like I came "Home" and I never felt that way before. I don't have to arrange everything in the bible to make it say a certain thing. Those who believe in the trinity will know what I am talking about. Just had to add my post to the discussion.