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Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. The leaders in TWI haven't changed. But it's a nice sounding lie that they are promoting.

Garth, You do make me chuckle. My "moniker"? It is simply an extension of something I was doing when I originally registered here. I was selling collectible china on the internet. . . . it is called "Geisha Girl" china. Here is an example of what it looks like. http://www.mygrannys...porcelain_.html not my site, just a good picture for you. Pretty isn't it? I always have loved it, My grandmother had a full tea set, and she and I would pull it out and have tea. It is just one of those things that I associate with happy memories. When I signed up here. . . . I was dumbfounded looking for a name. . . . I looked around. . . saw the china and voila' a name. The 779 is because I usually pick a common name when needing a handle on a site. . . . like you tube or an email account. Not realizing there wouldn't be a bunch of other "geisha's" on here. . . . I tacked on a random number. Nothing deeper than vintage china. What I find interesting is your language. You walked away from what you call faith based arguments. You don't speak of walking away from a relationship. It appears you still do not make the correlation between being in a relationship with someone and explaining that relationship in terms of knowing them. Now, my faith is not in the scriptures themselves, but in God. In who He is. I have no issues with what appear to you to be discrepancies in scripture. . . . . it is because I look at them in light of who God is. . . . who He clearly defines Himself as, holy, just, merciful, loving, and good. Also what my experience with Him in a relationship is. . . . you may question that relationship. . . . . you may not have that relationship. . . . . you may not understand that relationship. . . . . but, claiming some former kinship to it while seeking to invalidate it based on your experience is kind of funny. Because of your belief system. . . and you do have one. . . . a worldview. . . . you claim there is no consequence for your decisions. I disagree. I will not bore you with the details. . . . it is really not my life or choice. You appear to stand by yours while making judgment on mine. . . . I could do the same. . . but, I won't. As you say. . .. . you know scripture. While we were in TWI we transferred obedience belonging to God right onto the backs of men. Most of us went into TWI with an eye on a relationship with God. We got tricked. However, as I explained. . . . Israel willingly and gladly (their word) entered into a relationship with God. . . . one of obedience. They asked for it to be so. . . . You may see it as similar, but it is not the same thing. Again. . . . being in relationship with God, NOT men. . . . willingly accepting the terms is not akin to blindly following men. It is following God on His terms. The children of Israel heard the voice of God. . . . literally. . . . God fed them everyday. They knew Him. I can't really make it clearer. When someone enters into a marriage. . . they do not spend the rest of their lives worshiping the vows or polishing the rings do they? Questioning things clearly defined before they chose? They do not enter blindly. (In most cultures) But, for purposes of analogy. . . it is a free-will choice. You don't enter into a relationship with the aim of changing the other person. . . . you want that person. There are certain parameters we accept when we marry, things like fidelity. We exclude ourselves willingly from other relationships of the same nature. . . . if people do stray there is usually serious consequences within that relationship. They have broken a vow. . . their word. . . and violated trust placed in them. I question God all the time. He invites me to come and reason with Him. More than once I have carefully laid out my case before God , and dang. . . . if miraculous things didn't happen and it wasn't so. . . . . . sometimes very specific and unmistakable things. But, why would the children of Israel question the things they understood and had already accepted for a specific purpose? There is more to the point of the mosaic law. . . . . but those are things you question. . . . not them. They got it. You can bring up plenty of examples in the law. . . . but things being carried out specifically are less frequent. That is because God is merciful and would keep warning and warning, sending prophet's and calling them back. It is such a great study in relationship. He called them as a nation. . . . we are called as individuals. So, while you may pass judgment on me based on my relationship. . . . . it seems far fetched that you relate to me in light of it. . . . . but, rather from your position from outside of it. In turn, I doubt you ever entered into a covenant with God, giving Him your word to obey and follow Him. . . . . . . . only to unfaithfully walk away. That would seriously bring into question your morals and ethics. . . . those things you use to make value judgments on me.

Excellent Twinky. .. better than I could ever articulate. . . . and yes, that God taking you out part is iffy... it can be taken just like you said. . . I recant. :) Thank-you. . . . I really don't think I am good at explaining things. . . I used to have te exact same questions as SSearcher until I really started looking at it. One good thing to do is to read the OT and NT together. There are schedules floating around and certain things in the OT and NT correspond. Soul Searcher, What I meant was that God treated Israel like a father. . . . but, frankly, there were times Israel really suffered in the OT. . . . famine, exile. . . . sickness. . . . it was when they turned to idols. Whenever they repented He delivered them. . . .He warned and warned. . . . that is what all those prophet's were for. . . but, Israel was prone to turn away easily. He kept offering Himself to them and they kept going elsewhere. He chose Israel to bring Himself to the rest of the people as well. . . . He was not just for Israel. . . . but, that is how people came to Him. Does that sound familiar? :) If the God of the heavens and earth offers Himself to us. . . . promises fellowship and joy. . . . and we say no thanks. . . what are we turning to? If the bible is about life, purpose, creation, and the plan of mankind. . . . what else is there. What kind of God must He be. . . . to speak and from nothing there is something. A magnificent something. A friend who works in Cosmology said to me. . . . "I don't know how much is science and how much is just ART". What kind of being must He be? The bible tells us He is holy. When you start contemplating that one. . . it makes a bunch more sense. It tells us He is just. . . well, that concept is sometimes lost in our society, but justice is a real thing. . . many of us long for it. . . . although I am fairly careful on that one and plead the blood of Jesus. So, no, Sodom was punishment for sin. What are we speaking of here though. . . . gay couples adopting unwanted children from other countries and going to PTA meetings. No, that is not what was happening in Sodom. What do we as a society do when someone rapes, murders, or hurts a child? We lock them up and sometimes execute them. They are punished. Pedophiles are repeat offenders. . . . there is very little room for recovery. Even still God removed the righteous. But, how great was Lot? What did he end up doing? Yet, God still had mercy on him. I will think about the other question, but Twinky fairly nailed it. Oddly, I am off to a prison today to speak to people about repentance and forgivness. LOL

I forgot to mention this is in response to a question Soul Searcher had upstairs in a thread. I am sure there are others here who remember what TWI taught better than I do. Here was his question: "What about this from Joshua 10 on the battle against Gibeon? As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites. (Joshua 10:11, NIV) The Lord helped avenge the Israelites time and again. And he didn't fool around -- most of the time He made sure that everyone (including women and children) was killed, even those that got away. So... Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? According to Jesus or according to the LORD? I know this is off-topic but your comment about emulating Jesus caught my attention. Is there a thread that discusses the God of the OT? Because I have lots of questions. " "I was recently introduced to those "teachings" on classes from CES/STF and CFFM and I have to tell you: it doesn't do it for me as far as explaining the difference between God's behavior in the OT vesus the NT. And I wonder how much of what you just described is original WAY doctrine and how much of it came from other places? The dispensationalism, for example (along with four crucified and six denials) comes from Bullinger, no?"