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I found that bargaining routine somewhat odd -- and fairly entertaining, I must say. So they couldn't find ten righteous people in Sodom? There were no innocent women and children? Of course there were. But where was God's love and mercy?

If God is always the same, no shadow of turning, then the so-called OT vengeful God is no other than the NT God of grace and mercy. And likewise, the OT God is a God of grace and mercy, and the NT God is vengeful. There are some lovely passages in Micah (it's only a little book; have a read). "Who is a God like you, who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? He retains not his anger forever, because he delights in mercy and loving-kindness." (Micah 7:18 AMP, a sort of conclusion to the whole book). What do you want to look for? It's in there. You can see a mean vengeful God - or you can see a caring God. I think there is much in the OT that we of TWI do not fully understand because we were misdirected. A re-read without PFAL-colored glasses might be in order! It's contradictory but there has usually been scope for those who want to escape "God's wrath" to escape same. Good post, Geisha, but I think I have to take issue with this: Is it? Always? "Basically"? God? "Takes you out"? How does that fit with John 10:10a - "steal, kill and destroy" - the mission of "the thief" - the devil? Anyway, to pursue that particular line might be a bit off topic, and what Geisha wanted was to discuss perceptions of God in the OT compared with the NT. Jesus lived in a country under brutal occupation by a feared and greatly hated army. What did he say? "Turn the other cheek." His own supporters were unimpressed with this response, and some walked away. In the OT, Israel commonly got into trouble when it made allegiances with other nations for offensive purposes. God said that he would defend his people. It wasn't always instant deliverance. When it came to defensive purposes, they were to arm themselves but not go after the opposition. When they did, they suffered. How Jesus might advise the President today? He "advised" the leaders of his day. He told the Pharisees and the Sadduccees that they were hypocrites. He challenged them on their behavior. He challenged them to do the Godly thing. He challenged them to have grace and mercy. A soft answer turneth away wrath. Colin Powell tried a soft (less aggressive) answer and got kicked out by the warmongers. Jesus got to stand before the local ruler of the occupying army (Pilate) and what did he say? Nothing at all! (How's that for a soft answer?!) He let the hypocrites expose their own warped standards. The bold prophet Nathan confronted king David on his hypocrisy, greed, lust, murderous behavior. I think a hypothetical Jesus would challenge the US govt on its hypocrisy, its greed, its ill behavior toward other countries. The US has no leg to stand on, for example, when it comes to "democratic elections" when in fact the presidency (any presidency) is not acquired by merit but by the biggest campaign coffer and how many interest groups can be got onside. I could say much on this - but that'd relegate this thread to Politics and Tacks.

Thanks, geisha. Nice post. Lots to think about there. (I was betting that you wouldn't trot out the "idiom of permission" thing, and I was right.) So...I'm thinking...thinking...a couple of things come to mind: #1 If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the large hailstones I mentioned (and, by extension, the ten plagues, fire raining down on Sodom, etc.) were evidence of God's wrath against his lovd ones -- similar to the wrath a parent might exhibit against a problem child, is that right? I'm not trying to corner you -- just asking. #2 Have you ever given thought as to how a hypothetical Jesus might advise a U.S. president on how to react to and defend against the threat of radical islamic terrorists? I think even a pacifist (of which I am one) can see that the U.S., Israel, and other nations need to defend themselves. That need requires action and, in all probability, violence and war. I don't think Jesus discussed "war" outside of Luke 14:31, unless there's something on the topic in the Book of Revelation (which I've never read.) Nor do I recall anything about the need for a person or a nation to defend itself against agressors. Gotta get to work. More later.