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You know you are in a cult when you tirelessly endeavor to convince yourself you are not in a cult.

I"m in a situation where for some of the people that I think about seem to be loyal to a supposed Man of God that I don't believe rates the loyalty. When I first came here to the Greasespot I faced a couple of things, like a woman telling me what Wierwille did to her, for me that was a clear start of a new perspective for me; that,and realizing that not only did Wierwille simply copy other mens' work in assembling the greatest knowledge (supposedly)since the first century, but many of the things he plagiarized I have come to realize weren't even first rate in the first place. So since my facing what Wierwille actually did, I have since come to think of him as a sexual predator that was only a second rate hack, biblically speaking. Wierwille has fallen a long, long way from the heights of his reputation that TWI first showed me how to hold of him in 1982. But the things is, my mistake was in believeing TWI lies and spin in the first place. I believe that Wierwille really, really was a sexual predator and 2nd rate hack. Is it sane at all to believe that he can be soooo scummy and still be the great MOG? I think not! Not to mention the bs that many of my old friends have been led to believe about my former splinter group leader. They were taught to say he was, "The Word in the Flesh." And now it appears he has a fully Wierwillian sexual perversity on top of his 2nd rate, self serving biblical work. And biblically speaking, didn't Paul encourage the Corinthians to learn to judge their preachers correctly. So why should we be encouraged to not judge a minister!? Especialy really, really bad and evil TWI style leaders. THIS INFLUENE OF BLINDLY ACCEPTING SEXUAL PREDATORS AS MOG DID NOT COME FROM GOD, people. (I am hoping that this para. doesn't mean it needs to be a docrinal thread. I'll spin it off into doctinal if need be...) And in my case, it seems pretty solid that he is way, WAY WORSE than the trumped up and imaginary accusations that he used to ruin my life. So I feel a little emotionally invested in proving him for what he really, really is. __________________________ Would anyone like to share the specifics of how you came to realize the MOG was less than advertised? It seems to me that some people still believe lying TWI or TWI style spin, after all.

i wonder what some onlooker would say.... to or about two guys talking, do you love me? yes Do you love me? of course i do Do you love me! Yes always and I would give my life for you. Peter and Jesus.

I'd still like to know. What is it exactly that the way, as an organization, DOES? Seems pretty simple and all.. "well.. we.. ahem. well.. we.. ahem. well...." I honestly think that is the best response I should expect..

Slander is spoken-----libel is written.

I haven't read this entire thread but here goes anyway... One change I noticed in my ex-Way friend during her 20+ year absence (along with the acquisition of a variety of kooky beliefs) was a new-found hatred of gays and a belief that homosexuality is some kind of sin against God. It's so disappointing -- there's no talking to her on this subject. I try to look past it because I like her and I generally don't hold friends' racist, sexist or homophobic beliefs against them. I guess I'm tolerant that way. (For the record, I'm not gay and don't have any loved ones who are. But I can tell you that if any of my kids grew up to be homosexual I would not judge them or condemn them about it, and I certainly wouldn't love them any less.) Recently, gay marriage was on the table in NY State (it was voted down) and it's coming up for a vote by the state legislature in NJ. Maybe it's because I don't have a dog in this race but I could not care less if gay couples have the right to marry or not. It is a non-issue to me, personally. However, I can't figure out why it does bother certain people so much. Why is it a "threat"? Why do they think it's a sin against God? (Please don't point me to Romans or Corinthians, I've already read it.) And why are they so concerned about what consenting adults do behind closed doors? I actually know a colleague -- a decent, professional, educated man -- who is considering enrolling his child in a parochial school because of some perceived risk that his child might "contract homosexuality" (my term, coined sarcastically) from some other public school kid. Even if exposure to homosexuality was enough to convert a heterosexual into a homosexual, what makes him (or anybody) think that private or parochial schools are devoid of gays? I guess ignorance and stupidity know no bounds. It's sad.

Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.

WG ! That was beautiful !

Some of your expeience seems familiar to me Oldskool. While for me those types of experiences happened in the splinter group "River Road Fellowship" instead of TWI, it seems to me that in many respects my splinter group has simply continued many of the worst TWI practises. And now even though everybody ackknowledges that mistakes were made many of my old friends don't have a freaking clue how far Barnard pulled them away from honest and transparent ministerial dealings. Currently I have heard some of them are saying Barnard deserves patience, love, and getting God's Word spoken to him. In the mean time he's cut and run taking many of the young women with him along with some of his most pliable cronies, both men and women. And consequently I've heard some of my old friends saying of me things as, "I can't talk to Jeff and still expect to help people." But it seems to me as one who saw Barnard use some of my old friends to completely screw ME over that I have the right to expect them to be willing to deal with how they treated me while under Barnard's influence. A sound scripture reference seems to me to expect them to win or lose me as a brother according to their willingness to be honest about what happened to me. If it were Barnard expecting as he did to have the man that he spit on apologize for falling asleep and disrespecting his ministry I would know it was a wicked and abusive power play, but since I want to talk with them about how they helped Barnard and were part of me losing my wife and son that I am being reasonable in expecting their forthrightness. GOD WILL JUDGE. And that while they say they are holding on to things that Barnard did that are far scumier than anything anyone has the courage to share with me so far they simply have been bamboozled into another pointless and false nobility that has been styled after TWI's lockbox. And furthermore, since they refuse to handle these true events with honesty and transparency they simply hide the damage thay have aided Barnard in committing to many individuals and families. And similar to TWI ex-leadership I am fairly certain that they would not be encouraged to be honest as a witness in any kind of lawsuit as is fairly common such as "Estrangement of Affection" and other things.

Dear OldSkool, So did the depositions as concerning LCM's sexual predation coming from VPW's guidance start turning the tables for you, or were other factors more significant to you in terms of coming to new conclusions concerning these men? I just thought it could be good to hear others share about what got them rethinking loyalties to TWI scum...uh...er...I mean, "top leadership". For me, realizing the true nature of their character as revealed in their actions makes once believing they were due my unthinking obedience and loyalty harder to take, but I think it is better to know for sure how badly we were taken in by these folks than not knowing what kind of men once held our loyalties.