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it is hard for me to find "valid" points in what someone says when they end it with something so obviously vindictive and scathing and meant to harm and incite and control as "Wanna buy a used motor coach too?" because that in fact is called passive-aggressive when it is discussed in therapy as applied to an abuser. but i'm not calling rumrunner an abuser. but i am saying that i have my radar on "high" looking out for such things like this around here because the one thing the way international did in fact teach people was to be abusers and the way international teaches people to start off as passive-aggressive abusers, and the passive-aggressive stuff is usually the hardest stuff to catch onto because it's always laced with such "well intentioned" "good" stuff. but i will say there was nothing "well intentioned" and "good" about that one liner, and i highly suspect everything that came before was said just building up to that one liner because anybody can literally see the buildup in that particular piece of writing if they're willing. so i guess that means that i disagree about his true point when looking at the whole of what he wrote, so i guess that also means i still don't understand how you consider that as an example of trying to calm things down because it was so obviously incendiary (omg i had to look that up! lol) from the moment he started addressing "Excie" directly. well, the whole "gift" concept eludes most people in the world and usually takes therapy (trying to be funny here) to understand that when you give somebody something, you no longer have any say about what happens to the "gift" or even if the person needs to appreciate it because if it truly is a "gift" then the whole purpose is to express your feelings, not expect something in return, even if it is just a thank you or taking care of what you gave. word of warning, though, if somebody gives you a gift and you feel like you owe them something in return, or they make you feel like you do, give it back and be done with the whole thing because it won't be worth it. ok, i'll accept that you weren't being insulting about the grammar and spelling. you did say "I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life" and i figured there were two places that would count for "everywhere in life" for most people and that was work and the grocery store and so i took how people acted around here into those places to see what it would look like. for you to now say "But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists." is doing a run around on your own argument. you don't accept what i have to say. i don't accept what you have to say. it's great that we have a place to do that without "being out from under the hedge of protection", isn't it?

you didn't say what you were referencing except "Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread." and that was what he wrote "at the start of this thread" so what's a girl to figure? and i'll edit to add what about what else i said?

i put in the bolding to make sure it was seen.

you're welcome and thanks for listening. and btw i did some of that "good" detachment in there when i said things like "if it happened as a child" where i had to detach from my experiences to get it out. i can and do learn. :)

there's something i'm not understanding here and that's the concept of this place being a "gift" to me because if something is a "gift" to me, then what i do with it is no longer the business of the person that gave it to me, but the owner of this site has rules and has the authority to enforce those rules as her or she sees fits. and being thankful for a gift is one thing anyway but being beholden to somebody for a "gift" makes it not a gift anymore but a control issue. and something else i'm not understanding either is the backhanded insults laced around in here about trying to formulate "coherent" responses and the grammar and the spelling and the whole rumrunner writings where he offered ex to buy a used motorcoach and you want him to stand out as an example of someone trying to "gracefully" trying to "calm the situation" and your interpretation of this as not being someone making assumptions? and speaking of "mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets" what about the little diddy that seems to always be brought up about the "other sites" somebody is at or has been at like the ones rumrunner brought up or doojable brought up? i don't get those "mysterious undercurrents of distant history" or even if they're distant or current or whatever or even if they have any point in this discussion or not because i don't even know what they are to begin with. and something else i don't get is what world people live in where a "thick skin" is an expected "normal"? i know one thing and that is if people in the world i live in acted even a little bit like towards one another the way they act around here they'd get fired or brought to court or even punched in the nose. try going to a grocery store some day and stepping up to the butthole giving the clerk a hard time and telling her to put on her "big girl panties" and see how much "discussion" ensues, or try telling the boss to "formulate coherent thoughts" when he's ranting off and see how your next promotion goes, or try offering a co-worker a "used motorcoach" after finding out she was raped on one and see if you aren't brought up on sexual harassment charges.

Thanks for this insight.

ok what i'm seeing in ex's words are not accusations or unreasonable expectations, but quite normal reactions of those that have survived such things to what appears to be people glossing over the real underbelly of the way international, and for that matter, what really makes something a cult instead of just another whacked out religion. and that's what doesn't get discussed much either here or anywhere else unless it breaks down into some sort of fight or "let us fix you" or "grow up and move on with your life" lecturing. and i'll tell you it's not helpful to just get all the touchy feely pats on the back "support" saying "that was wrong and it should have never happened and it wasn't your fault and it wouldn't have happened on MY watch because I would have been the big hero and would have punched the sob out and wouldn't have cared what leadership said and would have left the way international right then and there if they DARED to try to make ME accept a pervert in MY twig or running MY children's fellowship!" and you know why that doesn't help at all? because it's a bunch of b.s. because the way international did it, did it all the time, did it often, covered it up with the help of regular janes and joes like people here whether anybody realized it or not and did it for decades. and so when people that survived that crapola talk about it and it gets glossed over with what ex so aptly called a 1.2.3.4. thesis or somebody says "i never saw it or heard about it and if i had of i would have done something about it but now that you're here it's time for you to grow up and get over it" well, you know that's just another form of the crapola. so what would be helpful? for one just stop trying to help because there really is no help that anyone can provide because this is something only professionals or ourselves can help, and professionals really can't do all that much really. for another thing recognize that this is permanent damage. it's not like a broken bone that will heal or a cut that just leaves a little scar or even like having your tonsils out and another body part will cover what the tonsils did. this changed how the brain functions, how the understanding functions, how the body functions and how the emotions function. if it happened as a child it changed how the child developed completely and in every way including motor skills, reasoning skills, problem solving skills, bone development, brain development, reproductive development (and more and more it's being realized that it's not just "growth hormones in meat" that is causing children to go into puberty earlier and earlier, but that a whole lot of it can be explained by childhood sexual abuse, but that's not a "popular" thing to expose it's also not a popular result to find in studies if you want to get funded for your next study), and is even at the root of many learning disabilities for far too many children. another thing that can be done is let people have their anger over it all. this is something to be really mad about! it messes people up and it messes people up for a long, long time! if you don't like to think that it does, or if you don't think it should and you want to say so then remember that saying so is a two-way street because taking somebody's ability to say so was one of the worst things that was taken from us so let us say so if we want to, ok? and then remember that it's scary as hell. the second definition could be a good thing of course. something i hadn't thought about, thanks.

From Wikipedia: Isn't detachment a defense mechanism that helps a person to protect himself (herself) rather than to misdirect others? If the above definition is correct, the second definition could be a good thing.

yah and it's called "detachment" and it's a way of keeping a person from having to actually cope with reality, which is why i said it wasn't the phrasing but the mentality because it's so the way international all over again and again and again.

((((((((((Shellon)))))))))) I've known you as an awesome woman (and friend!) for several years now. After reading your incredibily honest and well written story, many more will know what an awesome lady you are, also. I'm thrilled for the healing you received by writing this, and for the new adventures you and Jeff are embarking upon together. What a grand new beginning with all this expelled from your heart. Godspeed and abundant blessings to you and yours! PurpleDays

Wow Shell, your story is powerful and well written. I can only agree whole heartedly with Rumrunners comparision of you with the Rock of Gibralter.

No you didn't really make any accusations in your first post. However, you have more than made up for that in your latest posts. Just a thought here... If I remember correctly, you were on Trancechat and Waydale before there even was a GSC. I've been told that Trancechat was a "gloves off" "anything goes" kind of place. You stuck around through that forum and through Waydale. The point is YOU STUCK AROUND. Whatever voice you found, you found because you didn't run off and hide when things got rough. On the other hand, there is no cookie cutter answer that says that just because participating in this site helped anyone that it will help the next person. This place may not be the same that it was seven years ago. Then again, how many people do you know that are the same way they were seven years ago? What can you say is unchanged in the past seven years? Okay - those of us with kids can say we loved them then and we still love them now - but even those relationships have gone through changes. I would like to know (not by name-) who the person in question is and why she felt she could not find her voice here. However, I'm much more concerned that that person find their voice somewhere - the location doesn't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KcB8-RpnRQ

oh, and someone said something along the lines, "why are you blaming US" for this person ? why is there even an US ? i felt empathy. is that so bad ? i remembered this place and how much it helped me read the STUPID OPENING POST and see how accusatory i was to US your answers are more revealing than you even realize you drive me CRAZY with your research and posting skills and if i'm the cultist in my head because of what i'm saying, OKAY. i guess i never got healed here, but thank god because i was never promised that and now i can doubt my own friggin voice

ohmygod listening to some of you is like taking pfal

I came here originally because of the "Friends" forum. I don't think that there are any cookie cutter answers out there. Some folks came here for the express purpose of exposing twi and all it's nastiness. I think that cults/religion bring out the best and worst in people. The best because for the most part religion offers some sense of right and wrong and compassion. The worst because all people have a nasty side that just seems to get cultivated to extreme when you attach some sense of righteous indignation to it. I don't think twi was ever good - just that we (individually) thought it was good when we signed the green card. There are a lot of concepts that are pretty sound that got twisted and perverted under the cult mentality. The idea that you have to make the most of any given situation got twisted to "where's your believing?" I've had to work at not having a knee-jerk reaction just because a phrase or feeling makes the hairs on the back of my arms stand at attention. Gotta run... have a good day.

ok! thank you for doing that line by line thing and considering what i said. i'd do it but the only time i can get that to work is when it happens accidentally and i think i'm doing two posts but then it ends up as one post with two quotes from two different people and it looks like i know what i'm doing but i don't. :) the things i talked about were not rhetorical but were asked for discussion purposes because it was being said nobody promised friendship or healing or anything from this place except the stated purpose of this place (and i stand corrected here) "the other side" of the way international story (and if i got that wrong again please correct me again), so why was anybody complaining if they didn't find anything but "the other side" of the way international story? my point was yah maybe nobody was "promised" anything here but from the thousands of posts here that "allude" to the "possibility" of finding friendships, finding compassion, finding your voice, finding healing, well damn what else could somebody conclude if they maybe one day get tired of the isolation of the cult, get tired of the "silence of the lambs" (that might be copyrighted somewhere so i'm sorry but it so fits to describe what happens at the way international), get so tired of having only "approved" discussions that after "lurking" and maybe getting some "warm fuzzies" from some of the camaraderie around here in some of the more "tame" areas maybe they jumped in and said the only thing they knew and that was cult-speak and whammo blammo that's the last of their "little girl panties" and their butt and their pubic hairs and their willingness to chance things outside of the "hedge of protection" for a little while at least. and wait a minute here, didn't you just say that you came here to find some old friends and made some new ones and even found your voice here? how you did that shouldn't be a cookie cutter recipe for how others do it, should it? i dunno, but if it should be, how does that make this place any different from the way international in the end because at first the way international wasn't malignant from what i understand? and really these pages are full of people finding friendships here, finding their voice here, finding healing here, finding a new thought process here, so why shouldn't people actually expect these things for themselves from coming here and participating without having to go through some sort of "hell week" (or maybe i should say "l.e.a.d. week" or "corps week") first? and that's what i think was the point of the beginning of this discussion. and i'm editing this to add that this discussion has made me realize that i've participated in that whammo blammo stuff and i'm sorry i've done that. and i'm editing again to say that this working things out in my head is working because look at how i'm beginning to see that big chip on my shoulder even now because after re-reading this last post of mine i'm beginning to see i can be just as way international harsh as the next person.

yah. i think what you're saying here probably came out better than how i would have said it. and your cslewis quote is one of his best i think, too.

i started to answer this question and then i thought "wait a minute here, isn't this the same person that picked out one line of a whole post of mine and ignored the rest of it?" and then i thought "wait another minute here, isn't this the same old same old "answer a question with a question" corps tactic my brother and sister always used on me to control me and avoid controlling themselves?" well i guess that means i'd rather you consider the things i have to say before you jump to another tactic. and those are my feelings about what you've been saying and that doesn't mean i'm right or wrong but just that's the way i feel. it isn't the phrasing, it's the mentality.

Just wondering... why do you think that some people here find healing and/or make friends?

i guess i'd better not go off on holiday again after writing something that i thought was probably going to be largely ignored or maybe pointed at as me being some troll or something, but my inbox was full and i couldn't believe it was because people zeroed in on just one statement i made out of a whole post. it is so much like how the way international "explained" why the "promises" on the green card didn't work for everybody. "well who promised you anything anyway? it's your believing doncha know? and your believing isn't up to me or johnny jump up! it's up to you to get out of this class and this ministry what you believe to get out of it! and this ministry isn't for everybody! maybe you'd be better off in a church somewhere doing charity work if you want to get the warm fuzzies. but we here at the way international have a purpose and that purpose is DOING THE WORD. so don't think you were promised a damned thing except where your own believing would take you." well, i know many a children whose "believing" took them into state's custody after years of physical, mental and sexual abuse at the hands of twigite parents who were DOING THE WORD. yah. no promises. it's all our own fault. if people crap on us, we should have received a heavy revvy and not been around to be crapped on. heard it all before. read the results of it all here whenever i come around. don't understand why the same logic would be applied over and over again to justify the same type of belittling and condescending. but hey now, i'm not complaining because i am here by free will and i didn't have to pay a dime to be here (and i wouldn't pay a dime to be here, or any other message board for that matter) but i am just discussing on the other side of the coin that isn't the cheerleading side, sort of a "devil's advocate" side of things. maybe trying to "find my voice" of disagreeing with everybody at one time or something. i don't really know what i'm doing besides trying to figure out my own head and if that bothers anybody well then that sort of is a "promise" around here is that i can stick around and figure things out so long as i abide by the rules, and so far i'm pretty sure i haven't broken any rules, so a big middle finger if it does bother anybody. and no i'm not having a bad day, but in fact had a wonderful holiday week visiting with friends and companions i hadn't seen in a long time and not a one of them from the cult and not one word mentioned about the cult and how about that!

Too true RF.

:wub: you too refiner and thank you

Carol Welch absolutely insists that I state that I didnt meet her until she registered at MoChat in 2007. Well, she is correct. And a valuable person she truly is! A real ace poster.

There was a site called JWO, which, back in 2004 or 5 a large number of GSC posters joined. I was not admin of that board, merely a poster there. Considerable attacks upon the admin here were launched at that site by numerous GSC posters. MoChat is a completely different board, of which I am admin. A number of GSC posters are registered there but only a handfull post regularly. During the 3 year existance of MoChat there have been 2 or 3 flurries of registration by GSCers, mainly to argue over certain issues. There was a lengthy arguement over some private ladies only room, with a couple of new registrees stoking a bitter arguement on that subject. More recently some chap who left here, Satori 1 I think, joined and prompted a period of discussion on GSC matters again. My board seems to periodically attract GSCers who wish to dissent on matters of admin over here at GSC. Well, they are free to discuss those matters if they wish. I dont direct what posters can discuss/ not discuss. Exy, DMiller, Carol Welch are all people I personally love, and who I met her at GSC in 2004/5. Im very happy they post at my little board. Ive never seen the admin over here mentioned by name, that I can recall. Most GSC registrees signed up there are now deactivated. Im not really interested in a bunch of lurkers coming over there for no purpose other than to read fights and join in and start fight threads. Thanks awfully! (Refiner)

ok

i didn't have a rough day when i started this thread -- someone else did was i ranting ?