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bump #2 hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that? as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"! personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about......... paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple.......... so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace. 0

Wow! the attention to detail in your story is amazing. It's a shame that the best stories are usually those of such heartache and sorrow. By best I don't mean I am happy you went through any of this of course but that you share it well. I'm sorry for all the pain you have suffered but trust that it will have a sweet ending. (hugs)

bump..... hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time trying to get answers from john s. john l, the greaser's, jeff blackburn, and anyone else in the ces/stfi "leadership" group, several of whom have posted here at the spot...........as part of my efforts, i spoke with john schoenheit on the phone a couple of times in late november and december of 2007, and reported back here some of the responses i got from my personal conversations with some of the ces/stfi bod members, because none of them chose to post for themselves here in the forum set up just for them, since they had long ago shut down a similar discussion forum at their own websites...........i feel that some further info i received from my phone conversations with john s. last fall is appropriate for this thread........... first of all, let me state that i have known john s. since 1974, when we were both with twi in north carolina..........i was on my interim year of the corps "training", and john was a college student at nc state, raleigh, where he ran a college wow way home, IIRC.......our interpersonal contact was not frequent during the years 1974 through 1986, but there were many occasions when we "ran into each other" as faculty members at various "root locales", and several times during research team meetings during the writing of jcop, jcops, and other reaearch dept. activities at which we were both present............in the fall of 1986, we were both at hq, and i may have inadvertently contributed to john's ignominious "firing" from twi research staff, because i circulated his adultery paper among those who, it turned out, had a viciously tenacious agenda of totally silencing discussion of the "material" contained in that simple little paper for reasons now, hopefully, well-known to those of us who have frequented the greasespot during the last 8 years....... i concur with those who have posted on this thread concerning john's genuine christian character, and his personal, "moral compass".........i have never known john to be other than described above by tzaia, wrdsandwrks, dmiller, catcup, billy d., and batcave...............and, when he was unjustly and cruelly fired on the grounds of the adultery paper in 1986, i fought hard on his behalf to have that decision overturned and to have not only john, but anyone else who was "punished" for "promoting" the adultery paper, promptly and unconditionally re-instated to their previous twi "positions"...........to no avail.............culminating in my own resignation from twi staff in december, 1986, for reasons which included the brutal mishandling of all those who were attacked and punished due to their "involvement" with that paper...........i ran into john at mark car**li's "fellowship" in troy, oh, in the winter of 1987, where i had been invited to sp[eak, and we spent a few hours discussing all that had transpired earlier that previous fall..........and, again in charlotte, nc, where i had also been invited to speak several times during 1987 and '88.........it is interesting to me, that john is among the very few "leaders" of any post-twi "ministry", whose personal character, and morality cannot be honestly impugned because of behavior or actions on his part...........a sad testament to the fact that so many others in similar positions of "leadership" in twi and/or its various offshoots, cannot stand up to the same kind of scrutiny when it comes to their own personal "walk of faith"! my questions about john do not concern his character, nor his personal and interpersonal morality............rather, i find myself "forced" to question his "spiritual" and intellectual judgement through these past 22 years of his post-twi history............why?...........because, as a ces/stfi bod member since 1988, and its current president, john has been prominently involved in the development of ces doctrine and practice from its infancy to its current status as one of the larger twi offshoots still "moving the word" among a church still comprised mostly of twi refugees..........a ministry which, imho, continues to promote a large percentage of the same spurious, pseudo-christian doctrines/practices which vic inveigled deeply into the "god consciousness" of all those who attempt to present it in their own "kinder, gentler, ministries"...........having started out by proclaiming vic was "wrong" about adultery, as well as a list of 26 other "differences" ces claims for itself, from pfal and other twi "standards", john has overseen the evolution of his "ministry" to the point where, today, he agrees wholeheartedly with his fellow ces former prez, john lynn, that, indeed, vic himself would be "very proud" of what they're doing!!.............viva la revolucion!!! among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!! having been a member of the founding bod of ces, i remember quite distinctly how much jalvis insisted upon bringing john s., and the graeser's onto the ces bod in 1988.........it was a hotly debated issue back then, and, when jalvis finally got his way, several founding bod members promptly resigned............at that time, there was major disagreement about the promotion of and participation in the momentus "training" by ces "members"...........sue pie**rce, robert be**lt, tom rea**hard, and ralph dubof**sky, all founding bod members refused to participate in momentus and its promotion, and none of them ever did........but, john s. and the graeser's did, and still proclaim its "benefits" to this day, despite a less-than-gleaming track record of ces involvement with that "christianized" EST type scam!......john s.'s doctrinal "vetting" of momentus helped its promotion and validated the inculcation of momentus terminolgy and practices into the daily activities and speech of ces/stfi itself, where they remain to this day!.......i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind these facts, then and now........ then there's the entire "personal prophecy" fiasco!..............the insanity of this spurious malpractice of "christanity", along with its concommitant spiritual abuse, was once again vetted for ces by john s. repeatedly, eventually becoming "institutionalized" into ces/stfi with the publication and sale of their "research" manifesto on the topic.............a publication which ces/stfi and its current president still proudly stand by and promote as "truth"!..........there are literally hundreds of posts, scattered throughout this ces forum, which document the insane progression of this "truth" from its genesis with ces involvement with florida church international (?), and greg pharis(sp?) all the way through the departure from ces of its second prez and his wife along with the resner's...........the sordid "secret" details of this aberrant practice, and it's viciously destructive impact on ces bod members themselves, and their families, are also posted all over this ces forum!.........i absolutely question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who stubbornly adhere to and promote this foolish doctrine and practice as somehow being "biblically accurate"!!............ i also must question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of any person who,,,,,,,,, despite numerous "moral failures" on the part of the two previous ces/stfi presidents, despite numerous accounts from former followers of various "hurts and abuses" suffered by them at the hands of ces "leadership", doctrines and practices, even after many dollars and hours spent by those same followers in the "pursuit of godliness" as defined by ces/stfi........still determines that, continued loyalty to the teachings and practices which comprise the total ces/stfi "package" is somehow "right with god, the father of jesus christ"!!...........not only that, but such loyalty is supposedly based on "the rightly divided accuracy of god's word"??..............according to whom??? john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........and, he believes it's "god's will" for him to be financially and materially supported by "god's people" in the body of christ who choose to do so............and, he's a citizen and resident of the USA, which allows him the freedom to believe and teach whatever he wants, and to earn his living by doing so.......and, it gives him the right to do all these things in a free and open society, with freedom of religion and expression................thank god!.................it also allows me the freedom to express my questions regarding the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind his choices, and to make my own choices as to what i believe about his "ministry" and its teachings and practices.................to each his own........................peace. This post has been edited by Don'tWorryBeHappy: 28 May 2008 - 08:36 PM

Thanks for that Factfinder. I kinda got the same impression (again) just last week when I was in Bloomington, Indiana for an extended stay there. While driving through town, a Jeep passed me ( a NICE Jeep with oversized tires/ chrome wheels/ body lift/ etc., etc.). As the Jeep went by, I saw one of these bumper stickers on the rear bumper: Not having anything better to do at the time, I followed it all the way through town so as to talk to the driver and see if they could tell me anything about what the heck was going on (these days) with "da ministry". Long story short - - - The Jeep pulled into a Quiznos sandwich shop on the far end of town, and the driver got out. I pulled up and parked next to it, and as the driver walked away oblivious of me (even though I had been following it for 4 or 5 miles), I had to say "HEY!!!! Hang on there!" She (it was a she), turned and looked surprised at being talked to. I mentioned I had seen the bumper sticker on her Jeep, and was wondering is she was a member of STFI?? With a detached voice she said: "Oh yeah. My Dad is Dan Gal!agher." She said her name was *a**ie (or something like that, I don't remember now). Nuff said for me. So, I asked her about the "departure" of JAL and what was up with all that? I got a blank stare. I realized I was going to have to do the talking. So I asked if John left because of personal issues, or if it was a doctrinal split between him an the "rest of the crew" there. I got the same vacant stare, and then she said, "Oh yea. I think it was a doctrinal thing between them all". After giving a one sentence answer to direct questions and offering nothing else, I figured she was more in the mood for a sandwich and not questions. Realizing I was getting nowhere fast, I bid her good day after telling her I used to be a CES/STFI partner once a while back. She smiled, didn't seem to recognize my name (that's O.K. with me) and headed to her sandwich shop, and I wondered if I'd been "had". Either - - - she was being deliberately vague with me, or she was REALLY and totally clueless about what was happening with "da ministry". I couldn't imagine DG's own daughter (if she really was involved) not knowing what was going on. Perhaps she bought into the "smoke screen" facade. Either way - - - It was a scary proposition to try and figure out, especially if I was actually gonna have to choose between the two options. Factfinder - - - for what it's worth back in 2007, I was a partner with CES/STFI and the sh!!t was hitting the fan internally there then and they were saying NOTHING about anything that was going on. Guess it's hard to teach "old dog's new tricks, eh? I see them as "close-mouthed today, as they were back then. I was supremely p!$ed off that I (and all other "partners") were kept in the dark about what was happening as if we didn't matter at all. Which - - - - in essence is the truth, unless you count the money that was funneled into the "Org". I'm sure you're familiar with the old "mushroom" definition, eh? Even though I had been a "partner" with CES, I didn't get a damn clue about what was going on there, until I read it here at GSC. I fired off some emails to Graeser/ Lynn/ Shoenheit/ and Gallagher and actually got responses from all of them - - - but only since I was asking. I'm NOT going to post those emails I received from them here, but suffice it to say - - - each one of the laid the blame at another's doorstep rather than their own. I don't remember who said it (if I recollect it was a twi luminary), but the saying is as true now as it was spoken then: "YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD". (edited for spelling)