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Seems to be working now. Thanks, GT.

Okay, now with the Reputation buttons...I don't use these a lot but did see something that I'd mark as a + today. However, I got a message that I'd used my quota of + for the day. As it was the only time I've tried to do this today - do I have a nil quota? Similar thing happened last week.

And perhaps set them up to be a bunch of castrated buttkissers too? Do you think man worship led to men being beaten down into being less of a man? Some might say...karmic justice....?

Would you like to share how that affected you darlin?

My advice to those who have left is to do whatever it takes to get healed. Obviously, if you were involved in twi, you love God and want to be right. If you were like most people when you originally got involved you were dissatisfied with your prior religious organization, or if you weren't a believer yet, you were seeking a better life. Notwithstanding some of the hidden faults of twi at that time, something about how the Bible was presented or something about the people in the organization attracted you. (That is how most people decide to fellowship with any church regardless of what that church believes...) The fact that you have decided to leave implies that what originally attracted you to the organization has changed and/or that you have found out about something that displeases you now. twi has definitely changed from the way it was. In fact it has changed several times. It was one way before all the young people got involved, then when they came in the '70s it changed. Then later when it got big and it instituted its organizational structure, it changed again. Later after vpw died and when lcm's leadership was challenged it changed again and the "fog years" ensued. Many people left or were kicked out. Then lcm emerged from the fog and changed it again. Next, the lawsuits came to light and lcm was expelled. Little did lcm know, but rfr had been manipulating things behind the scenes and soon she put her stamp on the ministry. Next, twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now. Throughout this time people became dissatisfied with the way things were and if they weren't kicked out, they had a choice to either leave or try to change the organization from within. My point is that whatever the reasons that you left, don't blame God for it. He did not hurt or disappoint you, people did. You are still a precious child of God and you still have the calling that He called you to do. Those things transcend any organization of men. (And they cannot be taken away, nor does God change His mind about them.) Now that you are out, you are going to experience a lot of unexpected things. The familiarity of the fellowship will be gone, you may not have many friends and depending upon the circumstances of your leaving, you may have guilt or emotional issues to deal with. This is a very vulnerable time and some people don't get through it well. Many end up becoming bitter and looking back for the rest of their lives, allowing past events to control them. Don't try to go through this post-exit phase on your own. Don't isolate yourself. You need a friend. You need someone to talk to and help you sort everything out. It is good to re-evaluate things. It is good to check your motives. This time will be a real catharsis. Just hold fast to that which is good. But in the end, you should be better and stronger for it. God is still there and just like He helped Job, He can help you. So ask Him for help. All the "whosoevers" in the Bible still apply to you no matter what anyone else told you... God will help you. He can find you a friend to talk to. If you need time to think and not get involved with some other organization, that's OK. But it should not be permanent, because you still have a Godly calling and that ministry is directed towards other believers, so it functions best within a body of some kind. When it is time, God can show you where you belong. But to be really healed, you'll need to reach the same point that Job did and be able to genuinely pray for his "friends." If you can get through your catharsis whole, without being vengeful or bitter or calloused, and looking forward to new goals and not living your life controlled by the past and be able to forgive and genuinely pray for those people who hurt you, God will reward you double and you will regain what you lost. That is what is possible and God can get you back on the road to achieving it no matter what state you are in now. There is a lot you can pray for when you are praying for your "friends". For example, there are a whole lot of people in twi who know things are wrong and have decided to try to change it from within. In the Bible Eli was screwed up so bad that his sons were seducing the women who were coming to the gate for help. I Samuel 3 says that there was no open vision, that means there was no functioning minister who was teaching the real Word of God - they all were pushing something else... Yet even in the midst of all the vile, abusive and wrong things that were going on, God was able to rise up Samuel and eventually Samuel kicked butt and the evil ones got what was coming to them. (God will deal with those who have abused His people in time, and it always is thorough...) So maybe it would be a good thing to pray for those "Samuels", those "7000 who have not bowed their knee" to Baal or whatever other error the abusers have pushed. These reformers should try to do what God wants them to do. They will either succeed or be kicked out. But that is better than doing nothing because of fear... The goal is to emerge from all this still loving God and still wanting to do what is right. I pray that you get healed and that you will be able to live the rest of your life for Him.

Not sure if I'm thinking in the same vein as you Jeff – but I changed "man worship" to "hero worship", as another angle on your topic or maybe it's just what popped into my head after reading this thread. So anyway – here's my 2 cents - but it may be in a foreign currency. Back in the day, my attitude toward certain leaders in TWI may have been a lot like hero worship - looking expectantly toward someone who I deem superior to myself – superior in character, capabilities, accomplishments, etc. These people [like vp & LCM] didn't actually possess these qualities & qualifications – it was just my perception of them – a faulty viewpoint that was subliminally suggested throughout TWI. Thinking about the idea of heroes and how "the hero" is usually the central figure in a story – I would say that pretty much sums up the role of vp & LCM while I was in TWI. Each acting president took the place of the "absent Christ" as far as I'm concerned. Teachings never focused on what Jesus did in the gospels or abstracting what would Jesus do in present-day scenarios. It was learning how to manifest power via vp's foundational & advanced classes. Heck, LCM reinforced the hero worship thing with his "vp & me" video I saw in the Corps. We looked to the "heroes" – the big dogs of TWI, to interpret the Bible for us and to show us the correct application and they didn't stop at that – their influence grew more powerful over the folks who got more committed to the ministry. If you've ever went through any of TWI's programs you know how it gave leaders a free pass to stick their nose in every aspect of your life. So in this hero worship we relinquished the power to shape our own destiny. And thinking about hero worship, TWI, and where God fit into this picture. It's not that we didn't acknowledge a certain place for God in our lives - it's just that we usually wound up allotting Him a very small place. TWI heroes loomed so large in the thought-life of followers they eclipsed a clear "view" of God.

I've been thinking about this for awhile.....I know John so maybe that makes it move intriguing for me, I'm not sure. He and I have discussed this stuff in his life and we don't agree, but that's ok and that's not even the point. I see so many tired of his story and even more so his telling of it and I get that too. I think it's cuz he's "John Lynn" the former TWI celebrity figure, author, etc., et al., yes? We certainly wouldn't be hearing of Mr and Mrs Joe Smoe in such volume, nor would we care to, likely. By being who he is, perhaps he's held to more public critique and scrutiny and discussion. I also understand his tenacity (?) to continue to beat what seems so obviously a dead animal; I do that when something isn't done for me, or isn't settled where I need it to be and it's freakin annoying to those that care about me, I know this. So what is the answer? I'd offer what has been said here in the realms of "for cryin out loud, get over it, move on, yer killin' us here, John" but that might not work for John. We have those that were in TWI leadership roles that we remain interested in, remain in longing for news on and remain fascinated by the discussion of. I'm not sure why John is one, except that he moved from one leadership capacity into another one and maybe the lessons have repeated; I'd vote yes on that one. I'm more than ready to let John and his family live their lives and leave them the heck alone, sure. I'd love to yak with him on the phone about my own stuff, or visit with him about the simple things of this life like grandchildren and funny stuff. I wonder if so long as a man is held under certain standards if he doesn't feel like he then HAS to rise to them and HAS to give answers. If we engage, he'll engage. The celebrity who feel obligated to his fans to show up and sign autograph's and give interviews kinda thing. I tend to see John as just a man, like any other and maybe that's why I'll never really get it.