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For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are ye not carnal? 1Co 3:4 (NKJV in this post) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 1 Co 3:13 IMO, no matter which of the many, many Christian sects any of us happen to belong to it seems to me that the Lord has a plan. I think that even though many have built, many will burn. Many handle these scriptures like they are the arbiters of how these thing apply, as Wierwille and my former splinter group leader has done. People still say, "I am of Wierwille" and "I am of Barnard." Since they built their groups upon fleshy and carnal confessions such as these isn't almost a forgone conclusion considering the straightforward way that Paul warns Apollos and the church of Corinth about these carnal loyalties that they will inevitably reap the reward for their sects.....FIRE! (edited for grammar) Heck, as a matter of history, even Luther had people who after his passing talked about he was the Man of God for his Day and Time. And looking back it seems that they fell into error and left aside reason in their carnal loyalties for even Luther.

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 1 Co 5:9 I guess sects whose top leadership have twisted, abusive, predatory, and systematized sex as TWI should have been easy to deal with after all, huh? But even folks who saw these things up close seemingly fell for the imaginary spirituality that TWI still promotes. LEADERS!? Hah, we shouldn't ever have even hung around them scripturally. But even if sex is not a particular sect's issue, will not the Lord judge any group who substitute carnal loyalty for spirituality? (A little added for clarity)

Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot! This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am with my ramblin’ 2 cents. Concerning unconfessed sin/God crushing you over it, per the preacher man of Watered Garden’s post #1: This reminded me of TWI’s mindset of the-bad-stuff-that-happened-to-you-is-because-of-a-hole-in-your-believing. And while there are some passages in Proverbs & Psalms that suggest our moral status can have an affect on our physical status – I’m also inclined to think the “sin” in question is something on the order of life-dominating and maybe even would be somewhat obvious to the person if they gave their current status some thought. Some things just happen because we live in a fallen world and some things we bring on ourselves just because we are fallen creatures. Of the latter, I’m thinking adultery, stealing, lying, murder - you know, breaking one of the big 10 – whether it’s a one time thing or recurring, they can become life-dominating if I bend everything else in my life around it, to cover it up or to ensure its continuance. A sin is life-dominating when that is what defines me. Ephesians says let him that stole, steal no more – but rather labor so he may have something to give to someone in need. The thief has a life-dominating sin, he’s defined by it - until he becomes someone else – an honest worker. Another thing is how pontificating it is of someone else to interpret a personal tragedy of mine as a sign from God. What I’ve read of signs in the Bible, as best I can recall offhand – usually God announces ahead of time [before the event] that it will have a certain significance. I would think it’s kind of irresponsible or inefficient or just plain cruel of a benevolent God to let people run around guessing about something “heavy” going on in their life – wondering what God is trying to tell them. This brings me to my last point. Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born with Down syndrome. Still having so much of TWI’s mental baggage in my head, I’d have these random thoughts like “there must have been a big hole in my believing.. . it’s because I walked out on God” – pretty much typical of the guilt and worry Watered Garden talked about after leaving that loony bin. I tend to over think in situations, asking God “why did this happen to me?” My wife tends to bounce back quicker with a “what do I do now?” attitude. My wife helped me get past my self-centeredness, see our daughter as a person and continues to inspire all of us to support each other. We can’t fix every problem – but we can sure work together through every problem. Getting back to God’s omnipresence [told ya it’s my ramblin’ 2 cents ] – I do better when I remind myself of Paul’s situation. He kept reminding God about a problem he had [thorn in the flesh] – God said His grace was sufficient for the task.

i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that... "somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent "someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent "without someone pointing" is NOT omnipresent (not to mention how the entire above quote IS "someone pointing") seems to me "omnipresent" must somehow include all these excluded things ...just saying