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On another thread we talked about how embarrassing it was to go Christmas Carrolling and change the words to waylingo. I was driving today and I thought of that song, G B wunderfull Gawd. At the end people would harmonize and sing G O D spellz Gawd. That really annoyed me. I still got annoyed today just thinking about it. It was so mindless. :wacko:

That reminds me of this verse T-Bone. . . . If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone. 1Cor 15:19 Why is that? Isn't it about our best life now? Why are Christian lives so often marked by suffering? Sin? The fall? VP started a whole ministry on the premise Christians should be prosperous. . . . looked around his church and saw broken people. . . . he didn't like what he saw. There is a whole health and wealth gospel people preach. The Apostles were beaten. . . imprisoned, and martyred. . . . didn't God like them? Were they sinning? Didn't they have power? Makes you wonder if there is more to it. . . . that whole refining fire, scourging, and chastening thing sounds painful. If it is all for this life only. . . . I will take a pass. I am counting on the last being first. . . . God better keep up His end of the bargain.

Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot! This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am with my ramblin’ 2 cents. Concerning unconfessed sin/God crushing you over it, per the preacher man of Watered Garden’s post #1: This reminded me of TWI’s mindset of the-bad-stuff-that-happened-to-you-is-because-of-a-hole-in-your-believing. And while there are some passages in Proverbs & Psalms that suggest our moral status can have an affect on our physical status – I’m also inclined to think the “sin” in question is something on the order of life-dominating and maybe even would be somewhat obvious to the person if they gave their current status some thought. Some things just happen because we live in a fallen world and some things we bring on ourselves just because we are fallen creatures. Of the latter, I’m thinking adultery, stealing, lying, murder - you know, breaking one of the big 10 – whether it’s a one time thing or recurring, they can become life-dominating if I bend everything else in my life around it, to cover it up or to ensure its continuance. A sin is life-dominating when that is what defines me. Ephesians says let him that stole, steal no more – but rather labor so he may have something to give to someone in need. The thief has a life-dominating sin, he’s defined by it - until he becomes someone else – an honest worker. Another thing is how pontificating it is of someone else to interpret a personal tragedy of mine as a sign from God. What I’ve read of signs in the Bible, as best I can recall offhand – usually God announces ahead of time [before the event] that it will have a certain significance. I would think it’s kind of irresponsible or inefficient or just plain cruel of a benevolent God to let people run around guessing about something “heavy” going on in their life – wondering what God is trying to tell them. This brings me to my last point. Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born with Down syndrome. Still having so much of TWI’s mental baggage in my head, I’d have these random thoughts like “there must have been a big hole in my believing.. . it’s because I walked out on God” – pretty much typical of the guilt and worry Watered Garden talked about after leaving that loony bin. I tend to over think in situations, asking God “why did this happen to me?” My wife tends to bounce back quicker with a “what do I do now?” attitude. My wife helped me get past my self-centeredness, see our daughter as a person and continues to inspire all of us to support each other. We can’t fix every problem – but we can sure work together through every problem. Getting back to God’s omnipresence [told ya it’s my ramblin’ 2 cents ] – I do better when I remind myself of Paul’s situation. He kept reminding God about a problem he had [thorn in the flesh] – God said His grace was sufficient for the task.

Have I mentioned how proud I am of you, lately? Seriously, a man loses his wife, his family, his home, his job, basically in one fell swoop and against your own control or timing or choice, you had to decide to get up every day and keep sucking air. I get that each of us has our story, we all have to deal with our stuff and make those choices every day, but you've been willing to put your story out here. Inspriring, actually.

i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that... "somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent "someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent "without someone pointing" is NOT omnipresent (not to mention how the entire above quote IS "someone pointing") seems to me "omnipresent" must somehow include all these excluded things ...just saying

That is beautiful and sage advice. . . Amen

Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent? Look for him somewhere other than the Bible, someplace other than the church or books about religion. Look for him in a sunset or the changing seasons. Listen for Him in a songbird's melody or a child's laughter. Drink in the flavor of crisp autumn air or inhale the fragrance of newly mowed hay. Feel His presence in the soft texture of a newborn's skin. Look for him by yourself, independently, without someone pointing you to the place they think you might find Him. Look for Him.

Don't hold back WG. . . . tell me how you really feel. I hope you pray for this two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.. . . . if he is caught up in Driscoll mania. . . . he needs it.

I enjoy reading my Bible. Peoples' opinions about God are sometimes wonderful, sometimes not. I'm sure the young pastor I mentioned reads every one of the authors you do. He is a staunch, devoted, Reformed Calvinist who is convinced that Mark Driscoll is the greatest man of God alive today, much as in the early 1970s many of us were convinced that VPW was the greatest man of God alive for that day. That was another factor in leaving the church plant. I've seen what idolizing an authority figure like that does to idealistic young men. It was not pretty then and it is not pretty now. I am absolutely burned out to the max from having this stuff crammed down my throat or thrown at me like cow pies. I had TWI to convince me I was totally useless, utterly worthless, definitely second rate because I'm a lowly female, and all that other happy BS. I don't need to hear it again from Driscoll, McArthur, Piper, or John Calvin himself for that matter. I am a child of God with the power of Christ in me and on me. Period. I answer to the Lord Jesus Christ, not that two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him. WG

Gee......I'm trying NOT to. In retrospect.......EVERYTHING in twi seemed to have an agenda of control !!! And, I have to remind myself that wierwille was 55 years old in 1971.....and the clock was ticking on what he wanted to "accomplish." Now, EVERYTHING IS SUSPECT as to what wierwille was really pushing....and the 100 pages here at GS expose it all.

I really like reading John Piper. . . . especially his work on the attributes of God. Seems to me he knows the Lord and well. . . . . . I love listening to Matt Chandler. . . . great preacher. . . . and just because they are both Calvinist doesn't mean I can't learn from them. Matt Chandler is friends with Mark Driscoll, although I can't figure out why. . . . but, nothing like him. I love RC Sproul, he is a brilliant man. . . . do I believe everything he says without question? No. . . . but, I do learn from him and benefit from his teaching. John MacArthur mostly scares me. I enjoy reading Reformed Theology and although I don't get the whole predestination thing. . . . I still appreciate the high view of God they hold. Many of the New Calvinist preachers really know God. . . . I wouldn't ever declare them not initiated.

Too bad it worked that way for you W.G. I don't have any reason to doubt your assessment of the minister. But I do regret that your experience in that church was still something that you had to recover from, even if it wasn't as bad as your TWI aftermath.