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Was just perusing a friends recent Way Mag, and though the numbers were noteworthy.. According to the numbers announced for the 2009 Advanced Class 2009, it had only 69 attendees from 16 states, the two root locales (Gunnison and HQ), and one international. And then 70% of those attendees were teens, which makes about 48 teens and 21 adults! I feel sorry for those kids growing up.. Looks like that's all that is left keeping the Way #'s up.. No fresh blood, just sacrificed kids! And only 16 states?! Where'd they all go?

I just got back from taking my wife to get an MRI. One of the forms ask for gender. There was a box for male, a box for female, then a box marked OTHER. Ok I know I am a hick red-neck out in the sticks. Even after you take a bull and cut him he still is a male. My bitch dog we went and got fixed and she was still female. I thought that when they did a sex change job they changed the sex. So what is other?

Back in 1979-1984, the way ministry was growing exponentially. In 1979.....twi moved its offices and "command center" from the EOB to the OSC. Many believe, and I largely agree, that twi changed dramatically that year. At this juncture, twi lost its "intimate flavor" of meals in the BRC basement, Sunday morning sharings on the wierwille lawn under the apple trees, the BRC Sunday night services, the hamburgers served on the front courtyard of the wierwille home, etc. etc. In 1980.....more and more corporate policies were infiltrating into twi's framework. Outside vendors were coming to the OSC to get a piece of this growing enterprise.....Sysco food distributors, IBM salesmen, Materials Handling guys were stopping at shipping, receiving and warehousing offices, etc. etc. In 1981.....Ambassador One flights were commissioned to get hq staff to the field and bring "field people" to hq for an extended weekend. Twi was attempting to bring that "come and see" feel to those who started to see a distancing and bureacracy forming. Other major pushes were underway to get Way Prod. out to the people. In 1982.....with president-elect martindale on board for the October Anniversary mantle-exchange, the massive Living Victoriously event was a super-charged event wherein International Summer School attendees were invited to stay throughout the 10 weeks (?)...culminating with the 1982 Living Victoriously. Major prep all year.....more levels of bureacracy. If I remember correctly, F1nnegan was given a title above Bo Rxxhard's International Outreach Coord. position. F1nnegan was entitled with WORLDWIDE Outreach Coordinator. Also, noted.....cgeer was sent to Europe and designated the European Trunk Coordinator and European Corps Coordinator. In 1983.....in the states, limbs were getting bigger and bigger. Several limbs were huge and needed staffed and volunteer staff. The Area coord. position was needful to oversee several Branches in a state. The levels of leadership one needed to address....like three levels just to address the limb...twig guy, branch guy, area guy... was abit too much. In 1984.....many believe that this was the apex of twi's growth and notoriety. At roa, there were some 24,000 attendees and the compexities of it all were staggering.....the long lines, the pregnant mothers, the children's area, the youth groups in the west woods, the emcees juggling all sorts of rallying meetings, "third" aid, safety issues, camping issues, and corps working endlessly behind the scenes, etc. etc. Does there come a point where this should have been de-centralized? Does there come a point when the pyramid structure of twi....and its ever-growing wierwille adulation....need to be re-focused back towards christian principles and not this annual pilgrimage? Did twi's bureacracy collapse upon itself?

"Where'd they all go?" Dear TrustAndObey, would you like the official TWI party-line pat answer to that or something more closely approximating reality? hehehe

Dear Erkjohn, Thank you for saying you were not offended and for whatever it is worth, I did not assume that you were at all. But because of your first response and the reason for some of it seemed like you might have taken my post in a way that I did not intend I felt I should make sure we were straight. In a perfect world I think that we all could just be straight about things if the topics or posts offend somebody. At least that gives the ones with friendly intentions the option of working things out IMO. Plus, I believe communicating on a web-site by text makes it even more difficult to know how something was meant. Simpler if we just decide to ask and work it out. Concerning sociopaths..... I think anyone who has been around one and ended up feeling the complete and udder disdain they carry for relating to people as anything other than a tool to be manipulated would understand that being a sociopath is not an excuse. In my mind a sociopath is is a very, very nasty bird.

And George, I can of course respond only as a woman. We do tend to let the bug keep biting us since we're nuturers, we think of ourselves as the superglue, we have to do whatever we have to do to keep the poop in a group. So, sometimes it only appears that we're more convicted to some religious gig. We want our babies to grow up with some sense of who God is, we want some information to give them when they ask the tough ones,we don't want our kids to not have some base, we hold ourselves to different standards where managing our family is concerned. Sadly, those standards are most often too high, unreasonable. And if we see the family unit that is us falling into a gynormous pile of crap and we have a shred of hope, we'll do whatever it takes. Not to mention, as I've said, watching other women lose their babies in twi, or minimally having to figure out the dance of divorce and after in such an organization. We'll do whatever we have to if that can be avoided. Not all of us, I get that.

Nice!

Oakspear......I totally agree. Those first few WIB conferences had a main over-all teaching theme.....and then, TEN or TWELVE workshops ("word-shops") where REAL businessmen and REAL professionals shared aspects of REAL LIFE situations. For many, these workshops were NOT corps-led or wayspeak mumbo-jumbo.......these break-out conferences were filled with aspects to encourage and inspire small business owners, etc. etc. The whole concept of those early WIB conferences (1979-1982??).....was freedom in the making. BUT NO.......twi pulled the plug on it and it soon morphed into corps-led indoctrination. Only the corps (cough, cough) could lead these business and professional men and women. My respect for Don Wierwille......hit bottom. The guy just fell into the same bucket as his dad. By early 1990s......WIB conferences had morphed into Advanced CLass Specials.

Good morning Copenhagen. Then you understand, as so many have and do, that it's just not as easy as 'pack yer crap honey, we're outa here' and s/he will surely pack yours too, just for effect and out of love. It's a stressful daily gig at best huh? Will keep you in prayers and look forward to the day, with you, when things are different for you AND your wife and family. Shellon www.shellonnorth.com

For me over time and perspective I came to realize that my relationship with God didn't start in TWI, and didn't end when I left. The problem was with the people and the organization, not me. What they taught me was how to be a Pharisee, not how to be a Christian.

Don't worry if you can't find your retemory cards, just STAY YOUR MIND!

I think he gets paid a stripend . . . Like $12 a week or something. Maybe they think it's competitive pay . . .

He's just a decent guy who's been deceived by some cooky people. I think he's doing better than most have in the same kind of situation. As far as the program goes . . . most of the stuff you brought up just arn't issues. They're just a small group of young people living in rural MS hanging out listening to old teachings and studying the Bible. There's no ministry, no LEAD, no one to lead, nothing really odd. Just the teachings are odd. They only listen to them a few nights a week anyways. The rest of the time they study on their own. I heard at least one guy that came up with very unique conclusions during his study time and no one seemed too bothered by it . . . .

I think it borders on child abuse.. name your kid after a drunken, abusive, thieving, plagiarizing sex fiend.. train him to think gramps was some kind of hero.. tell him "preach da verd, victah.." its really disturbing to me.. gramps left a trail of spiritually damaged women, and men too.. pa and *uncle* mac really knew better.. or I wish they did.. I just asked a few questions.. "what are you doing any bit different".. just running another slip-shod, make it up as you go piece of dang that's gonna damage people the same as they did in the "good old days"? what kind of safeguards have you built into the program.. what kind of accountability do you have, other than to your puffy little self.. are you going to have "lead" and "rodeo school" type activities where people are physically damaged? Have to "renew" their minds to get "healed" or something like that? What recourse does a participant have, if someone "in charge" makes untoward advances, innapropriate comments, abusive behavior? Just send them off in the night? That is the way, it was.. we wanna go back to "the good old days".. you might want to rethink that a few times.. I'm not throwing you into that camp. That is a piece of information you might need.. right out of the starting gate.. "he's a great manogawd".. Humble? Maybe as long as you agree with him.. I dunno.. Does he KNOW *his* people are calling him a Man of God? Does he approve? Disapprove? more questions..

So what! .. most of us here and probably you too... have been twig coordinators, branch coordinators or area coordinators with no pay in fact we payed(Abundant Sharing ) so to speak for the so called privilege... because we thought we were serving God..... Not receiving pay is no indication of truth or honesty for that matter. And receiving pay is no indication they are bad. what is at the heart of it all is the stealing money from the believers and using it for nefarious reasons, all the while telling them it is to spread God's word. The SOWERS Group may or may not be wicked but since they continue to teach the lies that VP taught and are using the backs of the young people to do manual labor just as TWI did... it brings their whole "Ministry" into question.(In my mind) I would wonder what they use their peoples Abundant Sharing for... Who is ultimately helped? what charitable acts do they perform? VP used to make fun of churches doing charitable acts... to me I should have seen that for the truly RED FLAG it was. Sorry Bishop NO offense intended just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts and Ham I am finally understanding your outrage with the SOWERS. It seems it has taken me a bit to catch up. I sometimes get lost in the lies of What I was told TWI was versus the reality of what it was. Sometimes when I learn a new aspect of the deceit of TWI it makes my heart ache.. because what so many of us thought we were doing was in actuality not what we really were doing.

leafytwiglet Yup, we truly don't know. In our case, we also had extended family that was a huge consideration, even if I did only have to keep my own personal vows to my husband. And yes we lost them when we left, sadly; their decision. I've wondered if we might have gotten the boot to a$$ eventually and whether we might have left intact as a family. I like to think so, but I can not say 100%. And I have no way, again, of knowing for sure, but I suspect that I would have been the first out the door if a choice had to be made, given that scenerio, as well. Saddens me that life is tough enough anymore, trying to put happy marriages and families together without so much outside and undo influence. Sometimes it's just too much and too late to remedy, much less resolve or restore to health. Then to have to make decisions 'pros'; together with yet distinctly independant of. Yikes I do not miss that day to day struggle and moment to moment wondering about the dropping hammer. Sometimes it is easier to comply and fake it until other options are to be gained in some instances. I thank God I don't have to make those steps every day anymore, nor do so many others. But at what cost?

OMG Chocking here.. the least talented of them???not sure about that but definitely the quietest vocally. LOL. I believe in Drumming circles he is quite renowned for his unique drumming style(not sure if that is the proper way to term it) and I perhaps am mistaken on this but isn't he also the most musically versatile of the crew. Yes I am defending Ringo. I have no idea why except maybe because I came to appreciate his talents as an adult. Any way some notes on him and his career yes it is Wikipedia All about Ringo Okay and Reason Craig Liked him LOL Waysider Still cracking up over that one. Edited to Add.. I love the Beatles and find them all incredibly talented So don't bust my chops. LOL

Naming him a sociopath would give him a modicum of excuse for his behavior under the guise of mental disorder. He was just a criminal - a con - and, as you said, a good one - a violent person who lived by bullying, threatening and lying. Blesssss your lil ole heart.

Did someone say ?

Well said.... Yet, I think that for many of them......their resume sucks in the real world AND THEY KNOW IT. There is NO WAY that those cabinet guys/dept coordintors could find anything comparable to the cushy desk position that their bu++ sits in. Forget the meager salary that they get....they scoff at "the world" anyway. Besides, they have rationalized this thing a thousand ways since Sunday and say "they serve at the spiritual epicenter of the world for God Almighty." Furthermore, they've hazarded their lives climbing to these top rungs on twi's ladder.....and they ain't about to give it up. At least, not those who've been kissing the twi-signet ring for decades. The minions around them only prove how hard it is to scale the summit of slime.

Sure, if you don't mind my computer bewilderment.

That's ok, I don't know how to post a link but I can quote. HAHAHAHAHA

Thank you for the link JustThinking. :)

Chris Geer recently published a 2 book set, In the Footsteps of Patriarchs, Prophets, Believers and Kings, Vol 1 and 2. They are part of his Advanced class materials and were released before the class. He was working on a very long student guide and very long recorded class at the same time. He still periodically publishes "Glimpses of Truth, A Journal of Christian Studies." If you are wondering what a "Journal of Christian Studies" looks like... the Nov 2008 issue was a four page recounting of Joshua crossing the Jordan river and attacking Jericho. About two-thirds of that were simply quotations of the book of Joshua, so it says very little. If you've ever seen a true "Journal" in any discipline (theology, psychology, etc)... Geer's version is nothing whatsoever like them. He lives in South Casco, Maine.