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Does anyone know whether Geer's class is still being conducted? Not that I hope so... For info about him and his PFAL spin-off class refer to: Chris Geer's TWI offshoot class

I've read this book by Dr. Betty Price. I'll not really offer an opinion except that the story seems to be the same; a man of God often seems to believe he has more rights than others. The attached article gives a pretty adequate story about the book. My link

but we do have a pretty good idea of what unrepentant predators do, huh?

Boy, I hope they did not offer the mercy of Christ to an unrepentant predator. But I just cannot see how such a man could have earned a good reputation as to earn such a huge position of trust in such a short time. And to me it seems that often the same traits that make a good predator are often the convincing and deceptive false front that may convince others that he is repentant and not only deserves another chance but deserves to be ordained. I'd really like to be wrong, but this seems like a foolish ordination that is likely to go terribly wrong. (edited for clarity)

Strange behavior for an organization with no members.

I do think that a lot of "church people" hesitate to get professional help. I don't know whether it's "that the ministry be not blamed" or they just think they should be above needing secular, professional help with a problem, be it in the sexual, financial or whatever category. But in the case of the minister, I make no excuses, accept no excuses, and have no empathy or sympathy whatsoever for this guy. I hope he's enjoying prison. He plea bargained and only got 8 years. That way she didn't have to testify against him. He apologized to a lot of people at the hearing, but not the church he wrecked. Not us. WG

Yes, I am thankful to know those things (not so sure about the perfect prayer thing, though). But the thing is, TWI is not the only group that teaches them, and in fact I've encountered others (individuals as well as groups) who do a much better job of teaching them than TWI ever did, and have both intellectual and moral integrity to back them up.

I think in certain areas they are pushing to keep the numbers the same or show slight increases. So they try and talk a couple families back into attending so they can record them on their books and justify their measly existence and salary they draw. They'll leave these people alone and if they attend once every month or two they can still be on the books. By no means is this an across the board net numbers increasing. That hasn't happened in decades. But since they count and recount numbers every month, it's a way to try and show numbers on paper.

He has been trying to get to the heart of what is going on in her head and heart. If there was abuse, she's not talking. He is crushed because he was looking forward to having a one flesh relationship with his wife only to find out too late that she wasn't interested in that aspect of their marriage at all and has no desire to work on it beyond trying to convince him that his desire to have sex is out of line. He has remained faithful.

The old times. The old days. I would find it hard to believe that anything concerning the Way International resembles "the old times". It certainly would not resemble its incarnation from the 1950s and 1960s. I think most people who went through the PFAL class back then were older and saw Wierwille's organization and class as possibly interesting and intriguing, but not anything to which they were going to alter their basic lifestyle. Certainly nothing in which they would devote their lives, their money or their free will. From the few folks I've spoken with who took Wierwille's class in the early-to-mid 1960s, they viewed the PFAL class much as we would view a college class; they took it once, then felt free to do what the class implied to them - use the keys to interpret the Bible themselves, not waiting for Victor Wierwille to further explain it to them It certainly does not resemble the 1970s. People floated in and out of the "Twig" fellowships as they pleased, and took the PFAL class (or not) as they pleased. Unless you were part of a formal program (WOW Ambassadors, Way Homes, Way Corps, Fellow Laborers, etc.), you did pretty much as you pleased. If you felt like attending someone else's fellowship for a while (or permanently), you generally didn't encounter a lot of static. You didn't have to let "leadership" know if you were going on a trip, or going to visit your family, or, really, going to do anything. (Of course, there were always various attempts at controlling behavior by various individuals, but I'm speaking generally.) It was the 1980s when attempts at controlling and enforcing TWI edicts among the "general believer population" became more pronounced, culminating in the Martindale letter to the clergy in 1989 (?). Coincidentally, that's the decade I ended my affiliation with TWI (as so many others did, also). From what I've read on Waydale, Greasespot and other forums, the insane attempts at control became more evident into the 1990s and 2000s. Even though L. Craig Martindale is no longer the chief dogmatic and mouth-foamer at the Way, it sounds like most of the policies are still in force, though not as overtly enforced. And, perhaps most importantly, TWI no longer has any kind of "charismatic leader" to center their "believing images of victory" around. No cultleader of personality claiming (either implicitly or explicitly) to have a real strong "connection to God" to center their renewed mind around. So, exactly what "old times" are they referring to?

After some 35 years of twi involvement and post-examination, I am convinced that twi's lifeblood is the abundant sharing of its "membership." Clearly, pfal classes (or wap-up-side-the-head classes) and bookstore sales and event conferences do NOT begin to cover the payroll or operating expenses. Twi continues to market it product in the framework of "Living the Word's Way"......a mantra that has been repeated for 40 years, at least. Timing is everything, as they say in business....and wierwille had "the product" at the right time to sell when young, rebellious leaders were looking for something outside the pail of the church or the so-called establishment. Many of the once-youth-gone-wild-with-pfal are those who, NOW, sit in those upper-seats at twi's hq. No, I'm really not surprisd by this. The political area has the same landscape. Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money. Twi's lifeblood is the ABS flow.....those who've faithfully given 10% - 15% of their income for decades, and are raising up teenagers to do the same. And even when times are economically tough, twi has a "blood bank of supply" stored from 1978-1985 that grows in interest. Many of us Greasespotters contributed thru the years. Remember that old pfal line?..."The reason the Dead Sea is so dead is because it has all inlets, no outlets." The reason twi is so dead is......All money and support flows into hq and very, very little flows out. With srategic manipulation......there is no coincidence that "abundance, sufficiency, stewardship, etc" finds it way into teachings or themes all the time. These "prosperity ministries" are popping up everywhere!!! I mean, doesn't everyone want money to rain down from heaven above ???? Speaking of blood and all.....it's good that twi has a "doctor" in their house. <_<

Sorry about that. My memory failed me, it was called Anderson Library. I was there in the 8th. Corps around 77-79 ish. From what I remember, the books that were in the library were left there from the previous owners. TWI didn't go out and buy any books, and I don't think they ever put any WAY books in the library. I didn't ever go to the Library the whole time I worked on my Research Paper. Perhaps, it was someone's Corps job to try and organize it but I don't really remember that. Don Wierwille would have loved to have an accredited institution but that was never going to happen and I don't think it was just the lack of a library. TWI didn't have accredited people teaching any classes, or were some of those people professor's and I just didn't know about it? LCM, Gerald Wrenn, John Lynn, Johnny Townsend, Earl Burton, etc. ad nauseam. I was married but I remember hearing that there were mattresses up there and the single Corps would go up there to "fellowship".

Shellon, thanks for posting this. I like the way she places the responsibility for the most part where it belongs with the man and the "other woman." So many times people say it's all the wife's fault, she's not "keeping herself up" or she argues with him or something. Men just like women vow a vow to GOD to be faithful to their wives. It may be a challenge to keep that vow sometimes, but it's still a vow before God. It really ticks me off when I see a young woman work her rear end off to support her husband in his youth only to be dumped and replaced by a younger woman when her husband, who has climbed the ladder of success on her back, thinks better things are coming his way. WG

We're out. AND getting together. AND we're back in our right minds again (or close to it) I don't think we can understand why they'd slide back. From what I was told, they're not just going back to check things out....they are sticking. Maybe they're using it socially and "forgetting" about the previous spiritual stuff? Maybe they don't care about the entire organization being rotten at the top....their little group is ok? I was told it's beginning to feel like the old times.

We're out. AND getting together. AND we're back in our right minds again (or close to it) I don't think we can understand why they'd slide back. From what I was told, they're not just going back to check things out....they are sticking. Maybe they're using it socially and "forgetting" about the previous spiritual stuff? Maybe they don't care about the entire organization being rotten at the top....their little group is ok? Ik was told it's beginning to feel like the old times.

Actually.....it's 299 clergy unaccounted for, because from 1985 - 1998 twi ordained 30 NEW GUYS that are included in that 1998 listing. Then.........in looking at my list of those post-1992 ordinations, 6 of those exited or deceased. And, in 1999.....martindale ordained another group of 25 men. Anyhoo.....after that, my sources of information ran dry and I lost all interest. Shortly thereafter, martindale was ousted and MARTINDALE WAS LISTED 'GREASESPOT' CLERGY. :B)

Absolutely. "Give a man a fish story----(PFAL)----- and you'll eat today. Teach him to fish----ABS----- and you'll eat for a lifetime."

At the time Emporia was being prepared for auction, the librarian (Gayle??) went from Ohio to view the library and to select any books that she wanted for the HQ library. These were crated up for transportation to Ohio. The remainder of the books were crated up for auction. She estimated the number of those she was taking, and the number of those to be disposed of. First time she had seen the library but she walked round and estimated the total number of books. She was pretty close, within about 100 books or so. Impressive. No idea where the books she wanted for HQ went, because the library there didn't occupy that much space. It was extended slightly, but nothing like enough for all the books. I used to use the library occasionally when I was doing my research project or whatever they called it. Don't know that I ever saw anyone else there.

On the theme of the theme...TWI runs its themes in 10 year cycles. "Living the Word's Way" is a 10-year theme. "Making God our Sufficiency" is the 1-year theme. You know what really would be a new theme? "The excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord" (Phil 3:8) What if they really did start teaching something about who Christ Jesus our Lord actually is? About his lifestyle - which wasn't all confrontation, as LCM would have us think? About what he is doing today - in his church? About building a relationship with him - our big brother? Now that ... might be worth paying attention to. (Of course, believing what they said might be another matter, LOL.)

I hope they won't be. I hope that they take advantage (or took advantage) of the ability to repent of their errors before they died, allowing God to shed His mercy upon them. (Luke 15:11-32) But I'm not holding my breath. Self-righteous types are not generally capable of the humility necessary to do so.

Dear Erkjohn, When I said "most normal folks would have moments when they knew it was b.s., and others when they were deluded by their own press" all I was referring to was how a relatively normally thinking mind may consider these things,if it was in WIERWILLE'S position. Or put a little more clearly, I think unless Wierwille had even worse problems than are immediate obvious to me I think it is likely that at times he knew it was a scam and at others he believed his own press. Now I might be willing to apply it to you if you have scammed thousands of people into believing you were the MOG, or if you believed the lies that were spoken about you in order to bring people into your organization. So unless you are in any way like Wierwille was in this regard I definitely was not referring to you, or any of the rest of us who ignorantly promoted Wierwille when we didn't know any better. (a little added for clarity)

and I don't think there's been any gs gatherings in the midwest besides the gs girls gone wild a few years back... I'd be up for something if there was interest - I might be able to attend one in another area even - haven't done any traveling in too long! The Weenie Roasts I attended were fabulous and very well worth all it took to get to them. Oh, and no, Tommy - I've not happened upon any gsers without knowing ahead of time I was going to. Very cool that you did!