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Baylor University researchers found the problem to be widespread... by Jacqueline L Salmon Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, September 10, 2009 One in every 33 women who attend worship services regularly has been the target of sexual advances by a religious leader, a survey released Wednesday says. The study, by Baylor University researchers, found that the problem is so pervasive that it almost certainly involves a wide range of denominations, religious traditions and leaders. "It certainly is prevalent, and clearly the problem is more than simply a few charismatic leaders preying on vulnerable followers," said Diana Garland, dean of Baylor's School of Social Work, who co-authored the study. It found that more than two-thirds of the offenders were married to someone else at the time of the advance. Carolyn Waterstradt, 42, a graduate student who lives in the Midwest, said she was coerced into a sexual relationship with a married minister in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for 18 months. He had been her pastor for a decade, she said, and told her the relationship was ordained by God. (continued)

I don't really think devil spirits enter into this equation. . . . but, by all means, SIT more if you are so inclined. . . my advice would be to reconsider that option and think about the actions of these youth as opposed to something that is good and does not harm others. Good. . . . bad(evil). . . . the example Mark posted illustrates evil or bad intent as opposed to someone doing or intending good. Actions, intent, consequences. . . . you are a very bright guy. . . I don't need to explain the obvious to you.

Wierwille had cancer, it's a disease. It's like a football game. There's a winner and a loser. Wierwille lost, but it looked better to say that he purposely lost, that he threw the game. My competitor didn't really beat me, I let it beat me! I don't believe that death is a spirit, I'm not even sure I know what you mean by that. Do you mean a devil spirit? I also don't think talking about death is morbid. Death is a part of life, that may sound cliche, but that's what I truly believe. It sucks and is sad and heart wrenching at times, but still a part of life.

I'm a news snob for taking you to task for posting an article from a tabloid? The Telegraph isn't much better, as they are a partisan paper in favor of the Tories. However, from the article you posted yourself, it said: That says that if a baby is born prematurely and is dead, they won't try to resuscitate it without the parents asking for it. The medical industry has made advances to a point where they are able to save premature babies at younger ages. The recommendations given by the NHS to doctors will change over time as medical science advances. As far as the case you originally posted, it said that the mother asked the doctors to save her baby and they refused, despite the baby supposedly already breathing and everything. That goes completely against what this article in the conservative paper said. Which is it, is the NHS forcing doctors to murder living babies as you first claimed, or are they passing out recommendations that require the parents to ask for care if they are below 23 weeks of gestation? You can't have it both ways. Patients are kicked out of emergency rooms in the U.K., according to conservatives? How is that factual? The Republicans did some research too, and found that Obama was really born in Kenya, that FDR magically caused the great depression before he ran for President, and that Obama brainwashes schoolchildren into becoming communists by telling them the importance of personal responsibility and staying in school. Even if it were true, and it very well could be, we do exactly the same thing in our privatized system. I know it happens here in Conservative Texas as well as in "Liberal" California. You are presenting misleading, biased information and calling it facts. Here are some facts for you to face: According to the CIA factbook, here are a few of the more interesting life expectancy rankings by nation: Those socialized systems that people here seem to claim don't work do seem to support people living longer than here. But let's look at the beginning of life too. Since you are focusing on babies, let's talk about the infant mortality rate. In this one, the lower the rank the better, because the higher the number the more babies that die per 1,000. We were barely beat out by Cuba, who has less babies die per year in their totalitarian state than in our much greater nation. Of course, the only place we are #1 in when it comes to our health is in how much we pay. I would provide a direct link to it, but the World Health Organization statistics page is a bit tough to work with in that way, you'll have to go yourself and do a search under the Health System Resources category and select "Per capita total expenditure on health at average exchange rate" to see it for yourself. Of course, another interesting side effect of our privatized system is that healthcare costs are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in our country. So the facts are, we have some of the worst health when it comes to industrialized (first world) nations, yet we pay more than anyone else on Earth. It's pretty clear that our system is broken, and the facts show that the systems you and others are so afraid of do work better, save more lives, and increase the overall quality of life that their people have. We as Americans deserve better, and are capable of much better than what we have now. Maybe you don't agree, but the facts are pretty clearly on my side here. Roy, I think your first mistake is viewing the government as being a separate entity from the people of this nation. They work for us, one way or another, and we need to enforce that. The second mistake is in assuming that the government is to blame for our economic problems. In reality, I do think that the government allowed it to happen and both parties share the responsibility to some degree, but the biggest problem are the huge corporations, specifically in the financial sector, that created huge risks with our money (as their customers), and ripped us off. I think the ultimate blame lies with the big corporations that seem to have more rights and more access to the government than us private citizens do.

The problem with this is that the guy was never a "MOG" to begin with. He was just an arrogant dillweed who happened to hold the reins of a very lucrative MLM organization. He was just pizzed off because he was losing the status he thought he deserved. I guess he thought that playing the sympathy card would help him retain the loyalty of his devotees. And, apparently he was right about that. "Oh, poor me, I gave my eye for my keeeeeeeds." (cough, hack, wheeze)

O. k. papertrained, I am busted. I thought you were trying to be a meanie. Like I have said before it is hard to understand someone's tone when not directly talking to them. At least for me, anyway. Ask away.......

Went to tear out the tomato vines and realized we are going to be canning one more batch! Those things just won't give up! WG

I suspect the original poster of this thread, in his/her boredom, felt they had a legit question for us. There have been relationship forged and built here. Friendships that are still strong after many years. Births celebrated, deaths grieved, marriages, divorces, school, books published, stories finally told, freedoms attained, homes purchased, moves prayed for, lives gained and lost in more ways than what shows on the surface, we cry together, we laugh together, we pray for each other. Life happens here.

I trust you understand the sarcastic overtones and that I'm using the whole "broken heart" thing figuratively. My point being that now, after I've had some two decades of maturity, spiritual mileage and just basic life experience to add to my person; since leaving TWI... I can more clearly see the experience, even in retrospect. You said it buddy...now that I/we understand what was really going on... when we look back it can be so clear, IF we take our blinders and emotional projections off of the experience. Yes. It Was Not His Fault... Oh, YES IT WAS. I saw, & knew all of the things I mentioned in my extremely long post. BUT. I saw them differently then. Now. I took great care not to say that VPW's heart was broken because they BETRAYED him. I'm on record here saying that it was Donnie W. that took down TWI & his father VPW.... at least from the business POV. However, part of the reason I mentioned Mrs. showing us the family album from the India trip is that I also saw pictures of Donnie as a child & read the look of disappointment/anger on his face. Now that I have a son who is coming into adolescence and a College grad daughter and have experienced ALMOST losing my daughter's love & respect over a stupid bonehead decision.... I've seen the look in my children's eyes that told me, "one step further Dad & I'm lost to you...." I pulled up. I didn't make the bonehead decision. In fact I made the BEST decision I could FOR my daughter & make the best decision(s) I can FOR my other children to reel them back into my nest, so to speak. Even if it means some sacrifice for me at that point. I "count it all but lost to gain" my child's heart. VP gave his son, his eldest son, "the finger" and did irreparable damage to that bright young boy, who grew into a man who had a love/hate relationship with his father, VPW. VP gave his son little choice. Donnie didn't betray his father, he REPAID him. VP, created every crack that existed in TWI with his own hard-headed arrogance. In so doing he proved and lived the Word of God that he told us that he loved so dearly. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." "...the foolish man builds his house upon the sand..." VPW in his years building TWI left a wake of hurt people all along the way, many who would have been capable allies, he turned them into angered enemies with a legitimate axe to grind against him. Losing TWI was actually, in VPW's own words, "the consequences of his unbelief." Donnie, Craig, Howard A., Chris & others simply did as they were taught and "no man can go any further than he is led." As for Vp. "Woe be unto you, scribes, pharisees, hypocrites."

I was on staff @ International HQ during the time of VPW's illness & subsequent death. TO answer your questions from my POV: (sorry bout the length of this post - hope the background info fills in some blanks for folks) Looking back w/ a more objective viewpoint... TWI was a total mess during this era. As the ministry grew into a multi-million $$$ corporation "leadership" guys were pretty much all lusting after the major positions. After all, the bigger your TWI post, the more power & influence. Eg: Limb leader (state "coordinators") jobs, came w/ company cars, a big house & travel/expense budget to "coordinate" your state (kingdom). Guys wanted the big states, for obvious reasons & some maybe not so obvious. VPW, as he got older & began the process of turning over the reigns, especially after he announced his retirement and the "search" for the next president, lost more & more "control" over how guys ran their areas. His own son Donnie ushered in the "new way" we do things, His way became "the old Way" or, as Donnie put it, "Dad's Way." There was constant bickering @ HQ around the concept of "we don't do it that way anymore." People began to assume that the bigger the position, the "more spiritual" they were. They were constantly "over spiritualizing" stuff, hurting people and using position to bend people to their own will. All was done in the name of God, Jesus, and of course, VPW. That stuff helped inspire the leadership terminology change from "Leader," as in Region, Limb, Branch or Twig, to "Coordinator." The Trustees had simply lost control & they knew it. They were trying to reign "leadership" in at the same time "leadership" was setting up their own little & some big, "kingdoms." All of us who actually knew VPW & had known him for a long time (especially the locals) understood that whereas he was capable of being "really great" he was a completely high strung, head strong loose cannon who would say & do "all kinds of stuff." Yes, some it it was really "out there" into the crazy range. (This is why they originally set TWI up w/ THREE trustees all executive decisions were decided by a 2/3 majority.) VP would say extreme & off the wall stuff so often, HQ folk were sorta used to it. We used to all be humans @ HQ before we were elevated to different levels of "gods in a stick." VP's wild foot nature was accepted as part of his humanness. Urmal Owens was steady, patient, wise, sound thinking; a real salt of the earth kinda guy. He and Uncle Harry ( who, admittedly by VP) was the only man on the planet who could influence VP & change his mind on things. When Uncle Harry died, it hurt VP to the bone & changed him. That, in retrospect, I think was the beginning of the end for VP (in quite a few ways), Harry was his big brother, his backbone, and in many was, his conscience. Harry & Ermal were the behind the scenes guys who stabilized the early growth of TWI & did the "heavy lifting" at the major leadership level to build TWI through its infancy. How does all this speak to your question above? Well... It was basically LCM & Howard Allen who put out the BS that "it was you believers' fault" that VPW died. As with all of the best lies, there was a measure of truth to it. VP actually did "die of a broken heart." Of course it wasn't the literal cause of his death; (he died of Melanoma, etc.) VP's heart was broken by the fact that as he grew older & knew his days were numbered, as he looked God in the face, all he could see reflected back was his own failure. Those whom he had trusted the most to carry on the ministry had for the most part ALL betrayed him, they all wanted "the BIG position." Too many guys simply wanted the "keys to Ambassador One." They lusted after the motorcoaches, the campuses, all of the power & prestige that went w/ having the reigns over a world-wide multi million corporation where people simply gave you the $$$. The Trustees had basically agreed at that time; "you stay out of my are & I'll stay out of yours. Donnie & Howard took all of the operational business aspects of the ministry (as memory serves... Donnie took Emporia & Indiana Campus & the College program & Howard took Gunnison & LEAD) and the gave Craig free reign over the The Way Corps, Sunday Night Services, and Way Productions. The other two split up the stuff @ HQ. Basically Craig was free to run around & do "spiritual stuff" that Howard & Donnie didn't really care about. My take on the whole deal is that I don't think VP ever got over the loss of his brother, emotionally. He basically felt betrayed by those he trusted most. Having the ministry survive to the next generation was a HUGE THING to VPW. He saw that not happenning as he'd envisioned. He was surrounded by too darn many yes men & those whose motivation was to get as much "Leadership" as they could. As they say, power corrupts, & absolute power corrupts absolutely. Vp had absolute power & with Harry gone, VP lost his "compass," and the monster that we now know as VPW went basically unfettered. The cracks that grew into what we now call "splinter groups" started many decades ago. Vp's position allowed him the luxury of making the sometimes outlandish statements that grew into ludicrous doctrines and hideous practices. Whereas they are now widely exposed the arguments existed LOOOOOONG ago and the riffs were firmly entrenched in the ministry before the FIRST ROA in 1971. POP was only a straw that broke the camel's back. There were many things that VP had said in classes that were known to be "not particularly accurate." Whereas the veneer of VP seemed unchallenged, that was not the case behind the closed doors in the research dept. and others who were with VP basically from the start. Vp's stuff was challenged; by basically the same guys who now shout it from the rooftops, so to speak. The whole thing about cancer being a devil spirit, as time went on had less & less credence among top leadership. They basically ignored it, right along with his "...the original sin, that took place in Genesis, during the first period of man's existence on earth; the original sin was MASTURBATION...." (from the original Christian Family & Sex class.) SAY WHAT?!!! One prevailing foundational issue with all of the erroneous doctrine of TWI was this: For the most part when the classes were filmed, he overwhelming majority of Wafers, even the leadership simply wasn't old enough (in general) to have experienced middle aged things like "normal" health infirmities like cancer. (When I was involved, the average age of a wafer was around my age & I'm just past 50 NOW; having been out for 21 years.) Not too many of the young people challenged VP on anything back then (but there were some, even back in the 60's). For the most part folks would just parrot his stuff. As years progresses there were a few unquestionably "believing believers" across the country & world who HQ knew had come down w/ cancer(s), strokes, miscarriages & the like, things VP has said in the Advanced Class were devil spirit influenced, or worse. Life pretty much went on as usual. We would get prayer requests and pray over them at lunch every day. When VP was healthy & in charge we'd just pray for stuff. We'd also hear about miracles on a regular basis. In the 60's & 70's VP would actually ENCOURAGE people to send their ill & infirm to HQ... to get them healed. It was common to have possessed people from the area running 'round HQ. They would invite them to a meal & cast out their spirits. In fact the locals used to complain about all the "crazies; The Way would attract them like a magnet." HOWEVER; the advanced class teaching was still out there & when VP came down with CANCER! How could LCM say. "Hey gang, our 'Father in The Word; you know, the one who chose me as his successor... is POSSESSED, with a spirit of CANCER! In fact, he was possessed when he CHOSE ME to TAKE OVER...!!!" I don't think so. He would have sunk his presidency like a rock in a mud puddle. There wasn't a snowball's chance in hades that LCM would let that cat out of the bag. Primarily because there was already major dissent at the top (as in major Limb & above) leadership levels concerning Craig as VP's choice for Pres. There were at least three, maybe as many as five guys who all felt (and they have varying levels of support) they had a legit shot at the tip, top, spot. There were even some who felt that LCM actually should NOT have been chosen. They were only inches from rebellion. It was only the fact that we all loved & believed in VP that they only fought about it behind closed doors in the leaders meetings. There was no way Craig was givin' up his "key to the city." So, in typical LCM fashion, he pulled a power-play... He put a major guilt trip on the believers. He was just instituting the form of BS "logic" they still use even today to manipulate people. He tried to sanctify & martyrize VP, all the while elevating himself as one who had some mysterious knowledge from God (that we all didn't & don't have access too, seeing as WE're NOT "the man of God." Part of the MOG s.o.p. is that they get revelation(s), presumably from God. VP had "sources in the know" literally all over the country & world, believers in high positions in corporations, military, government, even the professional sports world who would call him up & tell him stuff. Some of it he shared, some he didn't. Often when he shared stuff, people assumed it was "from God;" pretty much every time he'd say stuff, if he didn't mention a source (which he generally didn't) people would assume he was speaking from God's mouth to our ears. Not to defend the guy or excuse his behavior, (because I DON'T) but you gotta recognize how intoxicating that can be. Moving right along... Simple. You don't ream your boss, you'll get fired (and lose your kingdom). As I said, HQ staff (at all of our locations) people were all, myself included, and to varying degrees "jockying" to hold onto our "kingdoms." As staff members, round Corps week/ROA time some people would look at us "woodgrainers" like we were MEAT, they were salivating for our spot. When I first came on staff in 1979, not too many folk wanted to work at the "Way farm." That was pre-OSC days. Then came the big building, cushy offices & most of all salaried jobs that you didn't REALLY have to be qualified for. There were relatively few people on staff who had the commensurate education/degree/experience to actually qualify for their job. In fact MOST people who had staff jobs probably would NOT have won that job "in the world" at a similar size company doing similar stuff. On the other hand I got my job @ HQ BECAUSE I had the right schooling & talent to do it. I went WOW and then into the WC to gain some spiritual & life experience to enhance my professional qualifications for my job. I'd originally applied for my spot when I was 19, in 1977. As time went on through the 80's though competition for staff job got a little stiffer, professionally, but people started thinking they could get a staff spot or even take yours if they were somehow deemed "more spiritual" than you. I knew my spot was secure though. especially as long as VP was alive. (I was the first one fired though, when LCM decided to get rid of everybody on staff who wouldn't play ball with him.) Unfortunately, things had degraded around the ministry by that time to major politics & red tape to get things done and even get & keep your job on Staff. Who you knew established your power base & secured your spot. Some folks had worked at HQ long enough that they were a little out of touch with their industries. They feared the prospect of having to qualify for the same job outside HQ. We used to call HQ "WayWorld" because we set & maintained our our standards, regardless. Ie: We NEVER made the deadline to publish The Way Magazine (that's why you always got yours late). We did the art, we owned the press, we did the shipping... If VP our one of our "major contributors" missed a deadline... since they were "more spiritual" we be forced to alter our production schedule because they didn't get their stuff to us. I mean....Who was "I" to tell a REGION leader (excuse me.... COORDINATOR) that if he didn't get his s#!+ together and get his article in on time for "MY" Way Mag spread "I" was designing that HIS "revelation from GOD to the believers" wouldn't get published??? That thinking was magnified to the Nth degree w/VP by then. However. When nobody was around, & it was just us I would TELL VP what to do all the time, it was my job. And when it came to my job VP would only set the general direction the rest was up to me. At first he'd tell me these crazy ideas about projects he wanted, or show up for a photo shoot in a wild outfit... & I'd look at him & shake my head, "No. We can't do that, that's not cool." "Its not?" He'd say.. "Nope. Not even close." Then, he's laugh that goofy laugh of his & say, "Mrs. Get the boy some milk & COOK-ies while I change my clothes. He' young, they're always hung-ry..." I wouldn't tell him he was possessed when he was sick though.... he clearly wasn't, he was ill. Actually, the whole M&A thing was way after VP's death. It was an LCM thing, yet another of his endless power plays. But.... YES! At mid 80's HQ there were double, triple, and a whole stinking matrix of standards that we actually operated on. We had long lost the notion of "Chapter & verse" to reign in our behavior. It was more like, may the biggest stick win, in the name of Jesus Christ - that is. Honestly speaking, my "power base" came from Donnie W, (BOT) Bob W!%garner (President's cabinet) and VPW himself. Plus the fact that I was a "semi-old timer." I would constantly shut people up by saying stuff like, "I know what VP actually said about that because I was there when he said it..." I had worked w/ VP on his personal projects from 1979 until he died. If anybody got wrong w/me I could simply go to VP and trump anybody. In fact. Mrs VPW & Emogene Allen sorta adopted me when I came on staff cause I was only a few months past 21 and far away from home. I used to run twig in the basement of the Wierwille home & Mrs VP was our snack coordinator. We'd sit for hours & hours in their basement talking & she'd pull out their private family photo albums. She showed me/us pictures that were never published in anything of their famed trip to India (from PFAL). I've seen before & after pictures of the "man with the withered arm" ... he was waving it! I used to babysit the Allen boys & the Wierwille grandchildren & was one of their children's fellowship teachers & was around so much taking pictures at their family gatherings I was almost like one of them. VP saw my name on a list of WC needing sponsorship to graduate & paid off the last part of my tuition himself. I used to drive him & his guests in his Lincoln on special event weekends when he was in town & hang out with him tinkering on his Harleys in the shop in the courtyard. He was like a grandfather to me. Even long after I was M&A I called Mrs. W and came & had tea w/ her, on her porch... for old time's sake... no security escort in or out. All that being said. It actually WAS his fault. He was at the helm, knew it wasn't gonna make it he knew he'd messed it up & it broke his heart that it all went down like it did. Broke my heart too.