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No Sh!t! I go for walks in the same places, my furniture is pretty much still in the same place too...Is that OK with everyone or do I need someones permission? WTF? What is it that drives people to want explanations? Maybe I like it here--- Ain't Nobody's Business But My Own <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I don't. I used to. Used to love it. Love it. Now I don't, so I won't go there. The freedom to speak is why I come back. Even if I do utter an "I told you so" every once in a while <g>. The last "demon," dispensationalism was demolished about a year ago.

Tzaia, you don't have to visit Doctrinal if you don't want to. It's not my hang-out much, either, but sometimes there are interesting things, and sometimes it just helps demolish a bit of Way "theology" by providing a bigger picture. I like that there are differing viewpoints on what might be seen as Doctrinal differences and it can help to (re)develop those critical thinking skills that were so crushed by TWI. We are free to explore here, and though there are some posters whose points of view I find very difficult to see, it's always good to explore other people's ideas.

I have read several places where the blame for VPW's illness and death lie solely on the "believers" who simply didn't have their minds renewed and operating correctly to keep VPW alive, while at the same time blaming anyone who got sick and wasn't healed for their own misfortune and lack of believing. Why wasn't VPW reamed for his lack of believing? Why wasn't he mark & avoided? Why didn't anyone cast out his devil spirits? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? Seriously though, most of us rank and file were unaware of his illness. His death was a complete surprise while the cause was shrouded in secrecy.

I was at a friend's (fellow ex-TWI) house for a Labor Day barbecue. He had invited a friend down for the day. To make a long story short, during the conversation I found out the friend was a fellow Greasespot, "the outlaw Josey Wales". We had a great time talking about a lot of things. So has anyone else had similar experiences where you found you were talking to a fellow Greasespot ?

He wasn't MY uncle! When did people start calling him "Uncle Harry"? ----------AND------------------------- When did it become acceptable for an "uncle" to greet his "nieces" with a French kiss or fondle their breasts?

Ha ha, Chockfull, if numbers continue to dwindle, it may be that those departments will lose so many staff that TWI will have to put their services on the net. In a "password protected area", of course, lest their pearls of wisdom should fall among swine, Christians in general, the people really searching for answers, etc. What a truly worldwide tool they are so carefully avoiding using. Isn't this the organization that was at the forefront of so many areas of progress and whose ideas were copied by the world at large? ...The AoS performance, which was "copied" by a famous performer. ...The latest and greatest in equipment (in its time) - probably way out of date now. Use of the Internet is something so simple that young schoolkids can access it and check out all sorts of sites. What a great way to reach out to the young people of today. But TWI doesn't even have a Children's Fellowship page on its website. Let alone access to its teachings, pitched at whatever level.

I can recall many, many instances that reminds me how it feels to live in such a group where everything is blamed on everyone else besides the leader who IMHO holds almost all the accountability before God. The content of this thread obliges me to print it out so I can go through it thoroughly.....Thank you all.

Dear Waterbuffalo, One of the things I was thinking with this thread is that oftentimes when I consider how I've reacted to a situation it seems to me that I can trace my reactions to an emotional response in me that originates in the awful behavior that I received in my former splinter group. and while it would be pointless to attempt any in-depth analysis of anyone's behavior here at GSC I thought it might be o.k. to share this so that others might see that they are not the only ones who are still carrying baggage from the old days and that it effects how they deal with certain things now. I hope that whatever life brings you that you handle these things better. Sometimes I know that I could have handled a bully better too. Dear JT, I am very glad that you have found people that bless you and leave you feeling built up here at the GSC. that is always a cool thing to happen. As a relatively new guy around here it seems that GSC is dealing much better with those who seems to have proved that their agenda was only to be obnoxious enough to chase people away from the conversations at this site. When I first got here this kind of thing was very common. But of course some of us may have done or said the very same things at differing times only to find out that we and our bullying only served to make us tools for the manipulators that set us on this course in TWI or the splinters. and as much as anybody else we all have the right to experience a change of heart too. And I feel that this bullying was especially damaging in that it chased away the very people who were beat up the most as a member of TWI or the splinters. Dear Kimberly, I really like it when that kind of thing happens, a misunderstood and hurting person who lashes out at vulnerable people has his/her heart softened....sigh. :) But when TWI was in full swing it seems like the sociopaths in charge have to a large extent proved themselves beyond reach of this kind of thing. But I can only be certain of that because of 20-20 hindsight, you know, like who can argue with results? Although many still do I suppose. But it also seems that others have changed......COOL. great post darlin!!! It seems that sicko-psycho TWI style leaders have proved themselves very, very adept at finding victims' achilles heals. I can remember many times as a member of "RRF" that anybody who was seeking for things to better were only beat down by leadership casting doubt on them. And when those "RRF" victims internalized these doubt causing attacks they/we had a very, very hard time getting out from under the bully's thumb. And I personally feel that since TWI leadership pushed people to the point where they committed suicide in despair IN GOD'S NAME that their consequences before God will be especially painful. Regular schoolyard bullies seem to me to be able to become decent people a lot easier than TWI bullies to me. I feel that is so in large part because of how sincerely caring a face they can don when it suits them, they became real pros at hiding their cruelty until it became effective in how it manipulates people.

I was on staff @ International HQ during the time of VPW's illness & subsequent death. TO answer your questions from my POV: (sorry bout the length of this post - hope the background info fills in some blanks for folks) Looking back w/ a more objective viewpoint... TWI was a total mess during this era. As the ministry grew into a multi-million $$$ corporation "leadership" guys were pretty much all lusting after the major positions. After all, the bigger your TWI post, the more power & influence. Eg: Limb leader (state "coordinators") jobs, came w/ company cars, a big house & travel/expense budget to "coordinate" your state (kingdom). Guys wanted the big states, for obvious reasons & some maybe not so obvious. VPW, as he got older & began the process of turning over the reigns, especially after he announced his retirement and the "search" for the next president, lost more & more "control" over how guys ran their areas. His own son Donnie ushered in the "new way" we do things, His way became "the old Way" or, as Donnie put it, "Dad's Way." There was constant bickering @ HQ around the concept of "we don't do it that way anymore." People began to assume that the bigger the position, the "more spiritual" they were. They were constantly "over spiritualizing" stuff, hurting people and using position to bend people to their own will. All was done in the name of God, Jesus, and of course, VPW. That stuff helped inspire the leadership terminology change from "Leader," as in Region, Limb, Branch or Twig, to "Coordinator." The Trustees had simply lost control & they knew it. They were trying to reign "leadership" in at the same time "leadership" was setting up their own little & some big, "kingdoms." All of us who actually knew VPW & had known him for a long time (especially the locals) understood that whereas he was capable of being "really great" he was a completely high strung, head strong loose cannon who would say & do "all kinds of stuff." Yes, some it it was really "out there" into the crazy range. (This is why they originally set TWI up w/ THREE trustees all executive decisions were decided by a 2/3 majority.) VP would say extreme & off the wall stuff so often, HQ folk were sorta used to it. We used to all be humans @ HQ before we were elevated to different levels of "gods in a stick." VP's wild foot nature was accepted as part of his humanness. Urmal Owens was steady, patient, wise, sound thinking; a real salt of the earth kinda guy. He and Uncle Harry ( who, admittedly by VP) was the only man on the planet who could influence VP & change his mind on things. When Uncle Harry died, it hurt VP to the bone & changed him. That, in retrospect, I think was the beginning of the end for VP (in quite a few ways), Harry was his big brother, his backbone, and in many was, his conscience. Harry & Ermal were the behind the scenes guys who stabilized the early growth of TWI & did the "heavy lifting" at the major leadership level to build TWI through its infancy. How does all this speak to your question above? Well... It was basically LCM & Howard Allen who put out the BS that "it was you believers' fault" that VPW died. As with all of the best lies, there was a measure of truth to it. VP actually did "die of a broken heart." Of course it wasn't the literal cause of his death; (he died of Melanoma, etc.) VP's heart was broken by the fact that as he grew older & knew his days were numbered, as he looked God in the face, all he could see reflected back was his own failure. Those whom he had trusted the most to carry on the ministry had for the most part ALL betrayed him, they all wanted "the BIG position." Too many guys simply wanted the "keys to Ambassador One." They lusted after the motorcoaches, the campuses, all of the power & prestige that went w/ having the reigns over a world-wide multi million corporation where people simply gave you the $$$. The Trustees had basically agreed at that time; "you stay out of my are & I'll stay out of yours. Donnie & Howard took all of the operational business aspects of the ministry (as memory serves... Donnie took Emporia & Indiana Campus & the College program & Howard took Gunnison & LEAD) and the gave Craig free reign over the The Way Corps, Sunday Night Services, and Way Productions. The other two split up the stuff @ HQ. Basically Craig was free to run around & do "spiritual stuff" that Howard & Donnie didn't really care about. My take on the whole deal is that I don't think VP ever got over the loss of his brother, emotionally. He basically felt betrayed by those he trusted most. Having the ministry survive to the next generation was a HUGE THING to VPW. He saw that not happenning as he'd envisioned. He was surrounded by too darn many yes men & those whose motivation was to get as much "Leadership" as they could. As they say, power corrupts, & absolute power corrupts absolutely. Vp had absolute power & with Harry gone, VP lost his "compass," and the monster that we now know as VPW went basically unfettered. The cracks that grew into what we now call "splinter groups" started many decades ago. Vp's position allowed him the luxury of making the sometimes outlandish statements that grew into ludicrous doctrines and hideous practices. Whereas they are now widely exposed the arguments existed LOOOOOONG ago and the riffs were firmly entrenched in the ministry before the FIRST ROA in 1971. POP was only a straw that broke the camel's back. There were many things that VP had said in classes that were known to be "not particularly accurate." Whereas the veneer of VP seemed unchallenged, that was not the case behind the closed doors in the research dept. and others who were with VP basically from the start. Vp's stuff was challenged; by basically the same guys who now shout it from the rooftops, so to speak. The whole thing about cancer being a devil spirit, as time went on had less & less credence among top leadership. They basically ignored it, right along with his "...the original sin, that took place in Genesis, during the first period of man's existence on earth; the original sin was MASTURBATION...." (from the original Christian Family & Sex class.) SAY WHAT?!!! One prevailing foundational issue with all of the erroneous doctrine of TWI was this: For the most part when the classes were filmed, he overwhelming majority of Wafers, even the leadership simply wasn't old enough (in general) to have experienced middle aged things like "normal" health infirmities like cancer. (When I was involved, the average age of a wafer was around my age & I'm just past 50 NOW; having been out for 21 years.) Not too many of the young people challenged VP on anything back then (but there were some, even back in the 60's). For the most part folks would just parrot his stuff. As years progresses there were a few unquestionably "believing believers" across the country & world who HQ knew had come down w/ cancer(s), strokes, miscarriages & the like, things VP has said in the Advanced Class were devil spirit influenced, or worse. Life pretty much went on as usual. We would get prayer requests and pray over them at lunch every day. When VP was healthy & in charge we'd just pray for stuff. We'd also hear about miracles on a regular basis. In the 60's & 70's VP would actually ENCOURAGE people to send their ill & infirm to HQ... to get them healed. It was common to have possessed people from the area running 'round HQ. They would invite them to a meal & cast out their spirits. In fact the locals used to complain about all the "crazies; The Way would attract them like a magnet." HOWEVER; the advanced class teaching was still out there & when VP came down with CANCER! How could LCM say. "Hey gang, our 'Father in The Word; you know, the one who chose me as his successor... is POSSESSED, with a spirit of CANCER! In fact, he was possessed when he CHOSE ME to TAKE OVER...!!!" I don't think so. He would have sunk his presidency like a rock in a mud puddle. There wasn't a snowball's chance in hades that LCM would let that cat out of the bag. Primarily because there was already major dissent at the top (as in major Limb & above) leadership levels concerning Craig as VP's choice for Pres. There were at least three, maybe as many as five guys who all felt (and they have varying levels of support) they had a legit shot at the tip, top, spot. There were even some who felt that LCM actually should NOT have been chosen. They were only inches from rebellion. It was only the fact that we all loved & believed in VP that they only fought about it behind closed doors in the leaders meetings. There was no way Craig was givin' up his "key to the city." So, in typical LCM fashion, he pulled a power-play... He put a major guilt trip on the believers. He was just instituting the form of BS "logic" they still use even today to manipulate people. He tried to sanctify & martyrize VP, all the while elevating himself as one who had some mysterious knowledge from God (that we all didn't & don't have access too, seeing as WE're NOT "the man of God." Part of the MOG s.o.p. is that they get revelation(s), presumably from God. VP had "sources in the know" literally all over the country & world, believers in high positions in corporations, military, government, even the professional sports world who would call him up & tell him stuff. Some of it he shared, some he didn't. Often when he shared stuff, people assumed it was "from God;" pretty much every time he'd say stuff, if he didn't mention a source (which he generally didn't) people would assume he was speaking from God's mouth to our ears. Not to defend the guy or excuse his behavior, (because I DON'T) but you gotta recognize how intoxicating that can be. Moving right along... Simple. You don't ream your boss, you'll get fired (and lose your kingdom). As I said, HQ staff (at all of our locations) people were all, myself included, and to varying degrees "jockying" to hold onto our "kingdoms." As staff members, round Corps week/ROA time some people would look at us "woodgrainers" like we were MEAT, they were salivating for our spot. When I first came on staff in 1979, not too many folk wanted to work at the "Way farm." That was pre-OSC days. Then came the big building, cushy offices & most of all salaried jobs that you didn't REALLY have to be qualified for. There were relatively few people on staff who had the commensurate education/degree/experience to actually qualify for their job. In fact MOST people who had staff jobs probably would NOT have won that job "in the world" at a similar size company doing similar stuff. On the other hand I got my job @ HQ BECAUSE I had the right schooling & talent to do it. I went WOW and then into the WC to gain some spiritual & life experience to enhance my professional qualifications for my job. I'd originally applied for my spot when I was 19, in 1977. As time went on through the 80's though competition for staff job got a little stiffer, professionally, but people started thinking they could get a staff spot or even take yours if they were somehow deemed "more spiritual" than you. I knew my spot was secure though. especially as long as VP was alive. (I was the first one fired though, when LCM decided to get rid of everybody on staff who wouldn't play ball with him.) Unfortunately, things had degraded around the ministry by that time to major politics & red tape to get things done and even get & keep your job on Staff. Who you knew established your power base & secured your spot. Some folks had worked at HQ long enough that they were a little out of touch with their industries. They feared the prospect of having to qualify for the same job outside HQ. We used to call HQ "WayWorld" because we set & maintained our our standards, regardless. Ie: We NEVER made the deadline to publish The Way Magazine (that's why you always got yours late). We did the art, we owned the press, we did the shipping... If VP our one of our "major contributors" missed a deadline... since they were "more spiritual" we be forced to alter our production schedule because they didn't get their stuff to us. I mean....Who was "I" to tell a REGION leader (excuse me.... COORDINATOR) that if he didn't get his s#!+ together and get his article in on time for "MY" Way Mag spread "I" was designing that HIS "revelation from GOD to the believers" wouldn't get published??? That thinking was magnified to the Nth degree w/VP by then. However. When nobody was around, & it was just us I would TELL VP what to do all the time, it was my job. And when it came to my job VP would only set the general direction the rest was up to me. At first he'd tell me these crazy ideas about projects he wanted, or show up for a photo shoot in a wild outfit... & I'd look at him & shake my head, "No. We can't do that, that's not cool." "Its not?" He'd say.. "Nope. Not even close." Then, he's laugh that goofy laugh of his & say, "Mrs. Get the boy some milk & COOK-ies while I change my clothes. He' young, they're always hung-ry..." I wouldn't tell him he was possessed when he was sick though.... he clearly wasn't, he was ill. Actually, the whole M&A thing was way after VP's death. It was an LCM thing, yet another of his endless power plays. But.... YES! At mid 80's HQ there were double, triple, and a whole stinking matrix of standards that we actually operated on. We had long lost the notion of "Chapter & verse" to reign in our behavior. It was more like, may the biggest stick win, in the name of Jesus Christ - that is. Honestly speaking, my "power base" came from Donnie W, (BOT) Bob W!%garner (President's cabinet) and VPW himself. Plus the fact that I was a "semi-old timer." I would constantly shut people up by saying stuff like, "I know what VP actually said about that because I was there when he said it..." I had worked w/ VP on his personal projects from 1979 until he died. If anybody got wrong w/me I could simply go to VP and trump anybody. In fact. Mrs VPW & Emogene Allen sorta adopted me when I came on staff cause I was only a few months past 21 and far away from home. I used to run twig in the basement of the Wierwille home & Mrs VP was our snack coordinator. We'd sit for hours & hours in their basement talking & she'd pull out their private family photo albums. She showed me/us pictures that were never published in anything of their famed trip to India (from PFAL). I've seen before & after pictures of the "man with the withered arm" ... he was waving it! I used to babysit the Allen boys & the Wierwille grandchildren & was one of their children's fellowship teachers & was around so much taking pictures at their family gatherings I was almost like one of them. VP saw my name on a list of WC needing sponsorship to graduate & paid off the last part of my tuition himself. I used to drive him & his guests in his Lincoln on special event weekends when he was in town & hang out with him tinkering on his Harleys in the shop in the courtyard. He was like a grandfather to me. Even long after I was M&A I called Mrs. W and came & had tea w/ her, on her porch... for old time's sake... no security escort in or out. All that being said. It actually WAS his fault. He was at the helm, knew it wasn't gonna make it he knew he'd messed it up & it broke his heart that it all went down like it did. Broke my heart too.

Jeesh! This always bugs the snot out of me. Cancer is about 600 different diseases with about as many causes. Some are caused by just, well, we don't know, some are genetic, at least one is actually viral (Burkitt's lymphoma).(sp?) I worked for 9 years in a cancer hospital, and trust me, cancer patients are patients, not possessed. Some of the bravest, funniest, most inspirational people I will ever know I met working there. God bless them every one! I'm so sorry for all y'all went through with that bunch of uneducated zombies. It's bad enough to have something scary like cancer without having to put up with their ignorance. WG

Mark- I certainly do not KNOW for certain about whether either of those clauses will be explicitly included. If I were to hazard a guess however, I think conscience clauses should and WILL be explicitly included as logical compromises. No health care provider should be required to provide end of life counseling or procedures, whether near the beginning of life or towards the end. Other providers can and should give such counseling and services to patients seeking them. I do think that insurance coverage should include these, but you raise a good argument then about the coverage provided to employees of firms who oppose such procedures. I will have to ponder that. In other words, on this issue, I understand the concerns you and Kit express especially regarding Catholic principles. I was initially only meaning to address Kit's comment about requiring hospitals to provide abortion procedures, and I very much doubt such a requirement has a chance of being included or that Catholic Hospitals will be forced to close. One reason is the political reality of the administration needing the support of a group who otherwise has a general conceptual support for the reforms. Of course that conceptual support still has a long list of specifics that must be considered before it comes to agreement. ~HAP

Sorry to be a source of embarrassment for you...but I've been done with being nice to the drive-by judgmental posters for a while now.

I'm embarrassed at how you were (not) welcomed back! We don't have to slobber over one another, but surely we could treat each other a little better than that! Well papertrained, there are many reasons why many of us are still here . We keep getting newcomers looking for information. Sometimes, even if we're tired of it, we have to answer some of the same questions. Some of us are still here as a warning. Now that lots of people are familiar with the Internet, we want to keep these pages here and vital, so that if somebody hears about "The Way Inc" and wants to do some investigation, they'll find the truth. Sometimes some come just to discuss certain issues with other "friends". I hope that makes some sense to you. Maybe you'll stick around for a day or so and discover that this isn't really the same as it was two or three years ago. It's not totally different, but different enough.

Why do you give a **** why we come here? <_<

It is sort of indicative that TWI's big event of the year was in a circus tent considering the whole organization and 'ministry' was straight out of the P.T. Barnum playbook

What got really scary one time in the men's shower was when the entire group started singing "He Touched Me"! I believe the line started moving a lot faster at that point.

Equating a religious identity with good action/good values looks alot like marketing/branding to me.

Never have bought anything from QVC or HSN/C... what a wonderful bunch of kids you have there... and the oldest must be incredibly smart, going to the University of Chicago! :)