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I forget who it was, perhaps Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, but at any rate this was a person who was high high society and known for etiquette, so it was probably one of the two. This is a story my mom impressed upon me: This individual was hosting a banquet and a famous person was the guest of honor, a person of humble origins who did not know the finer points of etiquette. At any rate, this guest, after the first course has been served, picked up his napkin and carefully tied it around his neck!!!!!! The hostess, without raising an eyebrow, did the exact same thing and so did the other guests. That's manners, folks. Oh, and class, too. wG

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

I've been thinking about my perception of TWI leadership and sadly some of my impressions from the early days were far more relevant than I knew at the time. Playing politics to be in control. Handling serious biblical issues with spin, not substance. Deliberately destroying folks' lives for petty and twisted reasons. Deliberately demoralizing people into NOT THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. Turning a group of wonderful vital people into a group with about as much life as an ancient Egyptian crypt. Encouraging and thriving on the unthinking adulation that even a false reputation can bring them. Billing themselves as "THE MAN." Yes, even Rosie. The thing is that sometimes I wonder if these very human problems are still with us. Learned habits and feelings can be a real b1tch to deal with. And people still have a tendency to play politics and build a rep, not just in TWI, but even here possibly. I'd like to throw in just for good measure, please don't let folks who may still have these TWI patterns come after you in a multi-website feud of some kind. They probably are capable of wearing you down, they have a lot of practice doing so.

and I will have 5 M post on this beloved GreaseSpot Cafe (about half of them WITH coffee)

Excellent - thanks for posting that.

Agreed.

Dear Darrell Bailey, I have no doubt as to your good intentions or the sincerity of your searching. But as it pertains to TWI doctrine many of your statements are too generalized for me to form any opinion other than I would tend to believe in your sincerity. And many, many specific doctrinal points have been bandied about for years here at GSC by folks who hold many, many different beliefs. A lot of that work and history has exposed what IMO is simple plagiarism, vainglory, and strife in Wierwille's actions even as he set up TWI. And I don't seem to have met many people who seem to be able to consider that point of view scripturally honestly. It seems to me that it was inevitable that due to Wierwille's intentions TWI was doomed to be rotten from the get-go. And as the Lord has promised to burn up lousy workmanship and take revenge on those who have despitefully used and ruined people financially and in any manner to sate their own piggish lusts that your dry and intellectual manner seems to me to fall a bit short of dealing with what really was going on among Wierwille's kids back in the day. Not to mention the inevitable leaven that has leavened the whole lump. BUT WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK IS "BABY" AND "BATHWATER" (added in editing) (I had to log-off for a bit)(Oh yeah...sigh...spelling too) It really seems to me that without complete honesty on the part of those who attempt to keep the Word alive TWI style that folks are pretty much being set up to fail in their endeavor. If someone is unwilling to take a real honest look at what the epistles say are the consequences of Wierwille's actions that they are unqualified to discern between "The baby and the bathwater." And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly repudiate all the hidden, yet cruel methods of leadership that they are almost certainly carrying on with all those manipulative and oppressive mannerisms. And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly handle each and every single legitimate complaint that many folks justly have that all their claims as to "great biblical truths" seem likely to be just more self-serving spin.

Precisely! The purpose of etiquette is to make an event a pleasant and stress free experience for the participants. What we did in TWI, with all our precise table manners, etc., was not etiquette, it was ritualized behavior.

I could be wrong, but the website looks like the aftermath of some kind of civil war..

Yep.. all the while the "elders" are in some smoke filled back room, downing shots of Drambuie and Schnapps, eating pickled pigs feet, and planning to take over the world.. what is "interesting".. I looked over cff's website.. there is a noticable absence of any link or reference to sowers and such.. and the fellow-laborers page has practically no reference to v2p2. Their history of him leaves him running a "twig" in his old home town.. methinks MAYBE somebody "woke up" in the organization?

Thanks RumRunner! Of course I want to - - that's all the fun is being able to play these things right away. I'm not sure which one you saw....so juist for giggles sake.....please click on the last one I did....the one below here where I did it correctly - - because that's the other one that I found so funny.

Thanks Krys - BTW when you do an embed from youtube - go to edit options (on GSC) and select HTML auto line break mode - well if you want to.

Same old story ---same old song and dance. I talk to just about everyone that I meet and I have NEVER met anyone, anywhere as fearful as wayfers or the offshoots when it comes to discussing their spiritual beliefs--- Heck I know crack addicts that deal more honestly. So far the representatives of SOWERS are proving by their absence what little mettle they have and how tiny their beliefs are.

Please turn your volume up a little and listen carefully :) sorry - - - I need a do-ever

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

Didn't an invasion like this happen in Australia once? Farmers didn't til the fields or something . . . Perhaps a foreshadow of things to come . . .

Leadership has great manners. Elizabeth Post would be proud. Hannibal Lecter has good manners too.

"leadership" thought that saying some simple catch phrase would replace sound advice or wise counsel. It was easy for them to say "trust God" and walk away and say the person was not believing God if things did not work out. They were also stupid enough to think that way corp "training" had some value in the real world and made them qualified to give advise to anybody that may have a problem. twi had a variety of scams going such as; wow program, way corps, outreach athleats, way homes, various classes etc... I am embarrassed to admit that I fell for some of there scams. It is sometimes hard to admit that you were wrong. I thought more highly of "twi leadership" than I should have and alot more than they deserve.

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Thanks so much, all of you. :)

I went and read it just now... don't be sorry excie!

thank you sweet potato i just apologized to you on another thread i feel bad

that's a good thing, excie!

ok ok, so we'll say it's a work of fiction based on a true story with all the "negative" parts left out, unlike Kristin's book seriously though, my point was they can't have it both ways.

Maybe "Rita" should click on this link.

It may not just be "Innies" posting such reviews. I have seen posts here that reflect such reasoning by people who have claimed not to have read the book. It could be people out of TWI but who are still into VP and TWI doctrine.

When I first read her book, I knew that if ever needed I could testify to some of the details she mentions from that 8th corps residence year at Emporia, even a couple of things she mentions about her apprentice year in Indiana (I was at Indy working on my work days off at limb HQ.) Perhaps that will never be needed. But more importantly, in my own mind some of these details helped immensely in making her experience, as she wrote about it, more real to me. Just as important was the tone in which she wrote; i.e. non-bitter because she wrote about it kind of as she were living it. Also, I would ask those who posted as such that, if they were horribly abused...let's even make it outside of TWI if they like...would they forget THAT? Glad to see you finally got the book. I know what happened to her may seem like nothing new to some people on GS who were abused or know someone who was abused. And I had not been denying that such abuse might have happened, but it can be a big step from might have to knowing it did happen. Winter solstice present, though??? <_<

I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago. hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult. the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought. I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.

"Submitting" such as Kristen had to do, to stay in "fellowhip"; to prove that she was still "spiritually mature", was apparently so established that she did not outwardly question what she was asked/told to do, and in turn submitted any doubts that arose in her mind to the doctrine that if the man of God says it's OK, then it's good. But I find it interesting, according to what she wrote, that a flag went up right away when she came across VPW's writings on Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that finding and reading those writings (I'd sure like to hear more from her on this) helped her realize that she was being abused. Anyway, I'm sure that starter of this thread could say a lot about those writings.

reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i) too used to obeying father figures, i guess although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense but always doubting myself

and some older ones too. Just kidding, Rascal, I don't really believe you are 900 years old. On the male side, that goes along with the term "loosening up".

WG, I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence. It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.

How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it? I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did. WG

Addressing why most folks didn`t hear about the teachings that allowed the treatment such as Kristin recieved. Of COURSE one wouldn`t have heard of any *official* teaching. That took careful chosing of whom they wished to victimize. It took careful grooming to prepare their intended target. They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ, all things being lawful to them which are in Christ, all parts of the body being equal, all the women in the kingdom belonging to the king and the mogs were our modern version of kings....eating meat or not was ok as long as you weren`t a stumbling block to your brother. There were deeper meanings that the general believers weren`t mature enough to handle, so ut was all kept lock box so that you didn`t cause your brother to stumble. It was planned, and it was sick, and it was all about using the scriptures and God`s name to facillitate the sating of their depraved lusts and filling their bellies. These guys were scum.

Keith, my husband was a college WOW in Bloomington in the mid 70s. Others: I haven't read the book and probably won't. It seems as if most of the major abuse took place in the upper ranks - not that the lower ranks didn't try. Although it seemed to me that the closer you were to a limb, the more structured things were. When we went from living down the street from limb headquarters to over an hour away, things lightened up considerably. I talked to our corp grad branch leaders about the sex thing and they said they were unaware of what was going on with leadership. As far as the teaching about sex in the corp was that penetration wasn't allowed, but other means of pleasuring one another were ok. I thought it was a pretty fine line, but since I wasn't so "spiritually developed", I just called it wrong.

I know it wasn't me. I left TWI then, but I didn't leave Bloomington. I was born here, and and except for college, and WOW, have been here since 1955 when I was born. I'm thankful that most people did thing I belittling Kristen. It was a good book and would be useful for anyone who has gone through any kind of religious abuse.

Groucho, I'm pretty sure he didn't sniff out the hidden reference I had to him on another thread in this forum..... In reference to a remark I made early in this thread about my only problem with the book, yes, it is getting worn, but still together. I have ben re reading it, trying to keep in mind that it is not just about Kristen.

I know someone who left Bloomington at that time, but you can't be him if you left then, because he came up to Indy where i saw a lot of him during my apprentice corps year. I don't think you are belittling Kristen at all. Whether it was God working in her heart, or her better judgement, it was eclipsed by having to do what God says, which in her case was what the man of God said. From her point of view, saying no to staying in, or specifically to what she was told to do, was walking away from God.

hi, keith vp weirwille himself said "things are to be used. people are to be loved." but he did not practice that sad

I had a little more reflection on this point, which I just expressed on the 8th corps thread. If we think about how someone nearby was hurting while we were having fun, self restraint wont be needed, or at least not as much.

An overdue response here; I think Oldies has a valid point, and that is what I was thinking of when I talked about Kristen's book not being a lecture. I really can't fault her in the least for the comment Oldies quoted.

I loved Kristen's writing style. I felt as if I were with her through all of her tragedies. She wrote just like most of us were trained to think. I loved/hated those parts because I relived a major part of my life through her writing. " The assurance I seek is in the Word. I try to feel it. I try to grasp the meaning until my mind aches.", pg 109. How many of us have done that? Trying so hard to make things make sense, but of course, don't rely on our 5 senses. blah blah blah.... Kristen, I am so saddened that you endured all the physical, mental, and sexual abuse throughout most of your life. BUT I am very thankful that you were able to get professional help. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for telling it like it hasn't been told since the first century. Sorry, I just had to say that. Seriously, people need to know the truth. If you help just one person see VP (and others) for the lowlife that he was, I think it is worth it. I have said in other threads that TWI did not ruin my life, and it didn't. I made several decisions (based on TWI teachings or recommendations) that I have lived to regret however. I am so sorry for what so MANY precious Christians and others suffered at the hands of The Way International organization's bigwigs and littlewigs, mog wannabees, etc..

I just got this book for a birthday present from a dear friend who is also ex-twi. She said it is great and she could not put it down. She finished it at 2am Sunday. I will join the discussion after reading it.

well, That is what started changing My mindset......AA, NA.......It was a new way of thinking. I had a very difficult time thinking differently, but going to those meetings really helped me change that. It presented me with new ways of thinking about God to. But just the every day living......being kind, considering other people and not making everything all about me. When I was in TWI, I was obsessed with being "someone"........being a great leader and maybe even some day being ordained. Oh My gosh, I so changed. I am so not the person I was when I was in TWI. Only God bring restoration to our lives....and this recovering addict is very thankful and grateful for the miracle of what has happened in my life.

thanks sunesis, very well said

I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right. In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.

I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick). Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine. I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...

It's been 20 years this month that I was sent to Long Island as a WOW and here I still am!