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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

What happened to all your prayers after you heard of twi. I have a feeling the former were more successful than the latter. I'm sure your needs and wants were parallel!

and the worst part is, this is where they start. It took the vicster a number of years to develop this kind of harshness in the organization. And where he failed, loy picked up the cause.. these guys are starting their their little organization at one of the worse levels of corruption in da way's history. The sowers grad kid.. after nine months of browbeating acknowledged he didn't like the rules, that it wasn't exactly a pleasurable experience, but somehow da "manogawd" is not to be questioned, but defended at all costs.. practically. I wonder about the other three..

Since I didn't take any classes beyond PLAF, I don't know the context. What I did come to understand was that lying was acceptable any time the truth was inconvenient.

I'm glad vpw is dead.

I think twi even qualifies as a fascist dictatorship.

Bol, do you have a problem with the concept of a self not defined by twi? one that people had to hide/suppress/deny in order to survive inside the walls of Zion?

thank you for your post, THW. I know people who survived the 90's and lcm's fall from grace and who are disillusioned with leaders but who will not leave. some labor under the misapprehension that twi has special revelation, that vpw was an apostle. some believe they have no where else to go. some will not leave their friends. I think some also believe they should stay just because they invested so much and want to keep an eye on their investment. I was disillusioned, completely, when lcm sent out the tape that he'd had "consensual sex" with another man's wife. from that moment on, I waited for real change and only found more corruption as I watched people excuse sin after sin. it still took me until 2006 to be able to leave, because of the hold leaders had on my life. leaving twi, in spite of how I'd come to loathe it, was more terrifying than kicking my ex out after 15 years of marriage and I think it was this website, as well as some innies who talked openly about the corruption and lies of leadership, that made it possible for me to find the strength to leave because left on my own I probably would not have been brave enough.

they use myspace, but as far as I can tell their profiles are all set to private. I don't know how much the "internet is a devilish place" doctrine still rules. there was one idiot coordinator in Washington (the guy who actually sealed my decision to leave twi because of his arrogant pontificating about the internet) who claims to be a web designer but I haven't seen any of his work so I don't know. I do know that when I was working as a writer via the internet, the area coordinator tried to pressure me to quit (via my now-ex-husband, the @$$hole didn't even have the balls to tell me to my face) but I wasn't about to give up the income I made working from home so I told my now-ex-husband that if dude wanted to tell me to quit, he could tell me to my face. I don't know where I found the brass to stand up to him... I guess it was knowing how close skated every month to the edge of keeping it together financially because of his low wages and no benefits from his "believer" employer. somehow, shockingly, that was the end of it.

This might be true. So was lcm ever under cult mind control?

I'm new to twitter what is a hash tag

vpw was not a modern-day Paul equivalent (the Christian version, we'll go with), but yes, an apprentice-like attitude would be shared, for many at least. aspiring to the standard of scripture, the "literal according to usage" version of timothy of course. The shared idea that vpw could give us the truest interpretation, other interpretations being skewed by the adversary and trinitarians.

hell no. your reasoning is based on ignorance of copyright law and about what copyright is. go read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine pay attention to the Overview, that should sufficiently explain it.

....aaaaand this information is considered *stretched* and *false hoods* because it doesn`t match up with the way one personally wishes to view things? I don`t like what you wrote, or the implications it has to my belief system..so there for you MUST be lying...eh? I personally find it surprising that people are willing to call hundreds of posters liars whom have related their personal experiences, people they don`t know all in defense of men whom the accusers in all likely hood never met or spent time with on a personal basis either. The finger pointers don`t know the guys they are defending any better than the people they are accusing of false hoods....yet it is a lot easier to label the victims as liars then to examine ones critical thinking and perceptions of beliefs. Thanks Pawtucket for providing these forums. I had been out of twi for 5 years before gs, and had really not progressed at all in my critical thinking, or changed my beliefs. It was in the discussion of ideas amongst other people that didn`t exactly think like I did, having to defend my notions, learning to read and consider others...that I began to heal, to question, to grow again. All I can say is that your efforts have made a huge difference in one family.

the snowstorm thread branches yet again... my question is: is it necessary in life to have one sole source for your rule of faith and practice? Mike seems to contend that everyone needs to have one, and only one. I disagree and would like to start a discussion on this topic. and I do believe that this falls under "about the way" and not doctine, because it's something that vpw pushed hard, leading us to give up all outside points of reference by which to judge whether something is right or wrong.

Keeping this in context, the "oddities" were used as you said - to make us wonder about all of the things we were taught as kids. If mainstream churches couldn't get how many crucified, the number of magi straight, and how old Jesus was when the magi appeared, what else were they getting wrong? At the time it seemed pretty sobering and I remember thinking that perhaps mainstream Christianity was doing a disservice to the believers. I guess we were supposed to be so grateful for being enlightened that we would gladly give 15% of our gross income or become indentured servants for life (and give 15%). I just never saw it that way. I do not know how many were tithers or abundant sharing at the 15% level, but it appeared that the deeper (higher) you were in the organizational structure, the notion that you could choose your level of giving was less likely.

We used to have unannounced, middle of the night room inspections in Fellow Laborers. They even inspected underwear drawers to insure that everything was folded and stored properly. (Of course, it never was. <_< ) And yes, male leaders rifled through the females unmentionables. How nuts was all that?

Testimony is not proof of anything?? Except it is admissable in a court of law as evidence. That is what testimony is. . . . proof!!!!!! This is just getting beyond ridiculous now. What court in the country does not accept testimony as evidence to prove guilt. No court says it is an undocumented collection of words. .. . until proven. . . OMGosh. . . that is why people TESTIFY under oath and the penalty of perjury. Get a clue. You don't testify an accusation, you testify to information relating TO the accusation as PROOF of guilt or innocence. Occasionaly testimony is all a Judge has to make a decision. . . guess what? It ends up. . . . based on testimony. . .

Who exactly rants and raves day after day about what they haven`t witnessed? Who accuses others of crimes? The one I see doing that consistantly is the fellow that insists on calling folks here liars without any personal knowledge of the individuals on EITHER side of the issue.

With the added burden of malice in telling a falsehood. Limited public figure. . . Carol Burnett aside, it rarely EVER happens.

You know what they say WD. . . the best defense against libel is. . . . drumroll. . . tell the truth! :) Repeat after me. . . limited public figure. . . extra burden of proof. . . a falsehood with malice. It is not defamation if it is true. . . it doesn't have to proven in a court to be true. . . VP made himself a public figure. . . our dear father in the word. . . we all got burned one way or another. The man of God for our day and time. Oh my goodness. . . I was in a cult.

That is calling me a liar when referring to my experiences and testimony. Your silly word games don`t make it any less an insult to those of us whom have shared our experiences. Though your word games are a little more clever now, the loop holes that you find in the rules to obfuscate and call into question a persons honesty and integrity are not any less offensive. Some of us actually got a life and developed some character after leaving the snake pit of twi. I don`t give a darn whether you approve of my pronouncing the criminals of twi guilty or not...I know who I am I know what happened to me, what happened to my friends...I know that many of the accounts here of abuse have been corroborated ...and these are given by people with a whole heck of a lot more credibility than one who never left the safety of their protected little cocoon.

Yeah but Rascal, it was never PROVEN in a court of law where the standard of innocent until proven guilty is ACTUALLY used. So, that means you can't SAY they were crimes. Where this is stated other than in WD's posts is beyond me?? Of course you can say something is criminal. . . . it is in our vernacular. . . "What so and so did was criminal". Oh yeah, libel laws. . . . okay, well libel is when you tell a FALSEHOOD about someone and malign their character. So, the best defense against THAT is to tell the truth. Which you do. So, you are covered. . . . EXCEPT. . . in WD's mind. It isn't worth it. It is a joke. You would have to suspend all reason, critical thinking, and pull out the good old "lock box". Oh yeah, we have already done that. . . . it is called The Way International. Same tactic. . . . different use. Keep ya quiet. . . idols might fall and fall hard.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Fair enough answer, thank-you. You do understand though, that what you are claiming is something that must be true for ALL if it is truth. Further, because you see it as truth, you are using this perception to espouse your definition of truth. . . . PFAL. If it is in fact the "Right" understanding that has been buried. . . . it is the right understanding for everyone. . . . no? Mike, who are you? A prophet? Have you ever seen "The Passion"? Mel Gibson did a fine job showing us all what Jesus went through for you. . . in detail. . . and living color. By your reasoning. . . Mel Gibson could be the one who got "It". . . .No? Yes? Maybe? VP wasn't the middleman. . . at least according to scripture. He drank like a fish and felt all women belonged to the king. What if he was just drunk when he thought he heard God?

Mark, give it up. Mike will never change his mind. Stop giving him bigger shovels to dig himself in deeper with.

oh my god, I hear angels singing hallelujah!!! I completely agree with your post, OM. I don't think that's ever happened before. the tax deduction of mortgage interest is a good point. I've saved thousands of dollars on state and federal taxes the last few years, and one of these days my mortgage will be far smaller than prevailing rents. good stewardship, indeed. pay a little extra up front, reap hella benefits down the road. that's what "investment" means.

mchud please go back and edit your post with the ladies email and put the spaces back in it. That is done as a courtesy for people so they do not get inundated with SPAM mail from bots. there is software out there that searches for emails on line. I know you are trying to make it easier for people to email her but it was unnecessary just telling them to remove thte spaces is all that is necessary

no, seriously. the coulters might be nice to look at (probably why they were picked to be the teachers), but let me tell you they drone on and on, and they droned on and on about celibacy if you're single, and also about how no believer should look outside of the household for a mate, and if there isn't a mate for you, then no sex, ever. since I was already dating an "unbeliever" who I really liked, I had a conversation with god about it, I can tell you. the class the coulters taught was all about what you can't do.

maybe that's why I don't remember it. I was required to listen to so many tapes in so many special meetings, they all just run together now.

Correct Bolshevik - time dilates as a function of velocity, gravity or both and the changes are well documented mathematically. Length - which we will call a unit of distance in one dimension - also changes relative to velocity. Kinda negates comparing using the metric system as a standard to a standard set forth by God.

TWI has no members, no membership. We don't keep track of anyone.

He got his "revelation" from white supremacy propaganda. His "secrets" were hidden at the bottom of a Drambuie filled coffee mug. All hail the Reverend Dr. Cyclops.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, Almighty GOD, who created the entire universe and everything therein, who knows every being in that universe intimately, down to keeping a running tally of the amount of their operable hair follicles, can't quite seem to figure out how to push "print" on his cosmic Xerox machine. NO! It's up to us to play "magic decoder ring" and make all sorts of profound guesses and surmisings to determine what His will REALLY is. It's beyond absurd. Ludicrous, laughable, nonsensical, I dunno, words fail me when it comes to the yawning gap between religious dogma and basic, barnyard variety, common sense. I guess ultimately, none of us is doing anything really meaningful (when viewed from a perspective of "eternity"), but do you really wanta spend your few years on earth totally absorbed in superstitious nonsense? Yer choice I guess...

yes, with that stare, and something along the lines of "as close as I'm standing to you".

ah! I vote for 5 :)

I got mine. take me off you mailing list ya damned wayfers.

IIRC, that stature was carved by Gutson Borglum, the same guy who carved Mt. Rushmore...

oh hey you people who served as WOWs! don't forget where the money for class refreshments came from. I don't know if in the earlier days WOWs got any help from local believers, but when I was a WOW we basically had no contact, which meant as well as paying our bills, we were on our own for financing outreach and classes. we absorbed ALL twi business expenses related to their outreach program.

Now then can't we all pull up a cup of coffee and move on to a new subject. holds out chocolate cookies as a peace offering.

My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly. Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day. If it was sent in once a month, then it would have been less costly - only $7 per year.

oh wow, that was incredibly disturbing. I never read that. it also mirrors to a T what my ex seemed to feel about his relationship with me, and what twi encouraged and groomed him to feel. wow.

william, welcome to GSC wonderful honest post. thanks for sharing it...

william, your response was better than mine. when subjected to those screaming sessions (with my then-husband standing by, fully supporting what was being done to me) I crumpled and lost myself. the depression was horrific but I could not leave. if I'd stood up to them and told them off like they rightly deserved, maybe I would have been kicked out and my life would have changed for the better much sooner... but by then I had kids and being put out of the house and leaving my kids is not something I think I could do. it's just sick thinking that they'd verbally abuse someone like that, then effectively steal all their belongings and send them out with nothing. twi is full of bullies and thieves. nothing justifies doing that to someone. maybe we should compile a book of personal stories, like you said it would be of encyclopedic proportions.