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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

I'll tell you what happened to those prayers - it was the fear in the heart and the life of George Aar that killed those prayers. And do you know why? Because George was painting your prayers fire engine red.

Then look at the stiffi's.. they started their organization, on the basis of the worst arrogance that had ever embodied the way.. didn't sit around and read their bibles and stuff for a few years.. "we've left Egypt, and WE've got the GOLD...." and it got worse.. "personal prophecy" and all.. embracing the austerity of momentus..

This new SOWERS program is proof that the beast's heart is still beating. It's like a stinking time machine, designed to go back and start The Corps and Fellow Laborers all over again. They seem to have completely disregarded any valuable lessons that might have been gleaned from TWI history. Sure, it looks harmless enough today, but what assurances are there it will turn out any different when, in fact, the very principles it has been fashioned after have been proven to be defective and dangerous? In fact, how do we really know it isn't a phantom effort of the monster that spawned it? TWI is still current news, IMO.

Yeah, lying is the best way to put your best foot forward in a Christian organization.

Hmm ok if we go with beavis and butthead "dick-tater" and we also consider the amount of sexual activity in the upper echelons of TWI (who we throw into a large canvas sack) and we consider how they have fragmented into dick-tating over multiple splinter groups with chips on their shoulders at each other group - do we have a bag of "Lays" dick-tater-chips? Sorry Potato - if you hadn't posted that long NOOOOOOoooooo I wouldn't have allowed the voices that come through the fillings in my teeth to end up here.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to understand your point here, but your implication or accusation or criticism, or whatever it is, is so vague and veiled that I'm not certain what you mean. I could guess at what you're trying to say, but that leads to nowhere but miscommunication. I'd rather hear you explain it straight out and specifically.

thank you for this discussion many people continue to help me and i'm grateful i know i have the most posts on greasespot sad. could be because i'm the most screwed up or one who needs to talk or oh hell i don't know. even being called the "patron saint of sexual abuse" hasn't stopped me. scarey eh? but thinking about grieving -- not being allowed to -- is something i really understand the death of a loved one, the death of one's childhood, one's soul......

i can't help but to hear that quote running through my brain every time i read this thread. how does it go? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) many "good" twigites stood by silently and did nothing when children were repeatedly smacked with the wooden spoon, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when people trying to help those children were "reproved" loudly and frequently and at length with terrible insults and dire threats to their well being, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when their "sisters in christ" told them what was happening in the motorcoach, and i could go on and on but i just can't help to wonder how "good" those "good" folks really were at the time?

it is possible, yes. difficult, absolutely. you can't erase it, but you can become more like the person you want to be every day. if that weren't true, I would be very different today. we grow new brain cells every day. how they grow depends on what we do. passive wishing doesn't change the structure of your brain. I saw myself becoming my mother and I changed it. my ideals are very different from hers. the way I treat my children is very different from the way she treated me. it took years and years and years to get her voice out of my head, but I did it. and the soul thing... people use it differently here, depending on how they believe. forget twi and their doctrines and think about whether "soul" or "self" are valid expressions for what you want to say. since I'm now a spiritual agnostic, I use them more or less interchangeably and twi can suck it if they don't like it.

Really? An individual cannot distinguish himself from the TWI he was raised in? All his thoughts, beliefs, actions emotions etc are lock step with TWI? The best they can hope for is to suppress their twi nature? No healing, no growth, no understanding, no escape? Interesting. Is that what you are doing, Bolshevik? Suppressing?

Perhaps that's what we all seek post-TWI - the real me. I used to be quite honest, but I learned to keep my mouth shut and do as I am told. That's starting to loosen up a little bit. I still fear any kind of personal entanglement with a church-type organization - our community group leader keeps talking about really getting to know each other within the group, and I think that's scary, for me anyway. WG

I think a pro-vpw beliefs forum would be good. There are a lot of folks who probably don't post here who don't like what he did, but like the belief system still. Maybe they're intimidated to post here. It would be interesting to see what happens in another forum, disagreements among the evolving beliefs and such, if anything.

Would an admission by Wierwille himself be enough? You see, Wierwille made such an admission when he graphically described, to a roomful of people, how he fondled an adolescent, to "teach her about sexuality". In Ohio, that is, what was referred to at that time, as Statutory Rape. Today, there may be other crimes that are attached to it as well, such as sexual molestation, unlawful sexual conduct with a minor, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, etc. ************************************************** Ohio Statutory Rape Laws Having sexual relations with a person deemed a minor is illegal in most states. This crime is called statutory rape. While the crime is not violent and does not usually take place under threats of physical force, it is considered a violation of the victim. The reasoning behind the law is that a person who is considered to be a minor is legally incapable of making an informed decision to consent to sex. Ohio statutory rape laws define a minor as anyone who is between the ages of 13 and 16 years old. So, my work researching Ohio statutory rape laws revealed that if you are 18 years old or older, and you engage in sexual activity with someone between the ages of 16 and 16 who is not your legal spouse, you are committing the crime of unlawful sexual conduct with a minor. This is a felony in the fourth degree. However, if you have sexual relations with a person who is age 13, 14, or 15 and you are less than four years older than that person, you can only be charged with a misdemeanor, according to Ohio statutory rape laws. A more serious charge will be leveled against you if it is determined that you engaged in sexual activity with a person between the ages of 13 and 16, and you are 10 years older than the victim. Some states are very specific in regard to the gender of victim and offender. However, I did not find that Ohio statutory rape laws specify the gender or either victim or offender. Therefore, you can be charged with or be a victim of this crime regardless of whether you are male or female. Ohio statutory rape laws carry significant punishments. The crime is considered a felony and can result in severe financial penalties or time spent in prison. Source: http://blog.laborlawtalk.com/2006/10/21/oh...tory-rape-laws/ ********************************************************** Ohio statute 2907.04 Unlawful sexual conduct with a minor (A) No person who is eighteen years of age or older shall engage in sexual conduct with another, who is not the spouse of the offender, when the offender knows the other person is thirteen years of age or older but less than sixteen years of age, or the offender is reckless in that regard. Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...19103318AA06GAt

There have been many first hand accounts written here and at other web sites concerning the crimes that wierwille and his fellows committed..and no not all the accounts have been nameless and faceless....To suggest otherwise Dove, IS a fabrication. I can only figure that it is manufactured to minimalize the credibility of the numerous people whom have shared their experiences. These crimes have been acknowledged by more than one leader as to having occured.

I know there are devout christians who are inclusive, not exclusive, who have empathy rather than egotism regarding their beliefs. so yeah, I wasn't implying that faith in jesus is equal to being afraid of looking at other points of view. the brand that twi taught us was so incredibly exclusive. we were taught to avoid anything that contradicts it, in other words to reject it as a valid source of information. without even considering it! because you know, Eve got in trouble by considering the words of the serpent. so you keep a certain rule of faith and practice intact, with no room to adjust according to Truth. because, you know, we can't know the Truth, just bits of it. so how will we learn more, if we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world? because the MOG has a direct line to god, so we're covered, people! when Mike made his call to get back to vpw's teachings as they concern the "only rule of faith and practice", I realized that what he was saying was probably simply no longer valid, even for those who continued to embrace christianity. I mean I assumed at least some of you guys decided to expand your understanding of your own faith, and that's what I'm finding to be true in the responses here. it applies to christians and non-christians, really. twi demanded narrow-mindedness from all of us. that's just not healthy, no matter what your spiritual beliefs.

Those that accuse VP of a crime have the burdon of proof to satisfy. It has not been done Period. I disagree Dove, those who were abused by vpw`s don`t owe you or anybody else a damned thing. I personally thank GOD that so many had the guts to tell their stories ...in SPITE of the guys who tried to shut them up with their vile accusations....Now the rest of us are free to recognize who and what VP REALLY was...it`s the first step in healing for many of us.

it doesn't matter, it still won't be a good comparison unless the criminal is dead and the victims are living and telling their stories. this looks like a red herring. we already established that this is an academic exercise since vpw can't be taken to court, we've already established that he's not entitled to presumption of innocence, nor does he have constitutional rights, and we've established that his victims DO have a constitutional right to free speech and if they're lying, they can be taken to court for libel. so why haven't they been? in a historical case, eyewitness testimony is acceptable, especially when there are multiple witnesses, and in the absence of contradictory evidence, there's no reason to declare the words of these women libelous.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. This whole thread is about the presumed innocence of VPW?

My post was in response to this statement: "Show me a confirmed charge of a crime and I'll shout it from the roof tops."

I don't believe that they've technically accused vpw of a crime, either because he's dead, or the statute of limitations ran out, or because they exercised their freedom not to press charges. this argument is academic, since vpw is dead. he cannot be "accused" in the sense that you're using, because he can't be taken to court. therefore, no one has accused him of anything. however, their testimony IS documented. once it's published, it's a document. at this point, in order to declare their testimony untrue, it would require taking them to court to prove libel. until someone produces a guilty verdict against vpw's victims showing that they've libeled him, their testimony stands.

There have been cases of children being sexually molested by leadership that resulted, not only in charges, but in convictions and incarcerations. These are matters of public record. Upper leadership made deliberate efforts to cover them up and allowed the practice to continue. These things have, in fact, been documented on GSC, as I'm sure you're well aware.

issues of libel and the law have already been addressed. now seems like a good idea to give a real definition of "evidence", because WD persists in pushing his made-up definition (I just love how twi does that, don't you?) from American Heritage: ev·i·dence n. 1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis. 2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face. 3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law. tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es 1. To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove. 2. To support by testimony; attest. oh, and how about: guilt·y adj. guilt·i·er, guilt·i·est 1. Responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act; deserving of blame; culpable: guilty of cheating; the guilty party. 2. Law Adjudged to have committed a crime. 3. Suffering from or prompted by a sense of guilt: a guilty conscience. 4. Hinting at or entailing guilt: a guilty smirk; a guilty secret. obviously, WD takes only the definition he likes, and adjusts it to make his argument seem the correct one.

WAVER?? Not freaking likely. It is you who have the rediculous standard of requiring folks to only address that which they personally witnessed. Prefer that we not mention it without documentation.... It is you whom claim the unreliability of what our friends tell us. Therefor, it is according to YOUR rules that we shouldn`t discuss anything that happened 2nd or 3rd hand. You have called folks liars for years, presenting yourself as one whom has credibility. For someone whom has never been in the wow program or way corpes or a woman, or a child in twi...someone who always lived in one small area ... .to think that they have an idea of what the rest of us went through....and to call into question our treatment and the teachings used to enforce obedience, to call into question our integrity and honesty on this basis is laughable. Please, address that which you experienced without calling others liars. Anything else that comes off of your key board(according to the rules you want to play by) is undocumented and unreliable 2nd hand info, and as wrong as what you decry in others.

This is a statement that was made recently on another thread regarding people who were adversely affected by the depraved lifestyle of VPW. ********************************** "You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done. Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it." *********************************** I'm personally at a loss to understand the sort of rationalization it would take to accept this statement. Any comments?

Potato - "Face metling over trivialities." Exactly. All in the guise of telling us to be "meek" to God. Actually, that abuses God even more than it abuses us. We simply wouldn't have put up with this garbage elsewhere. If any church minister behaved in this manner now, would we put up with it? If TWI know-it-alls could have distanced themselves from their own egos, they would have seen that the specks of dust in our lives were just that, specks of dust; and not seen so very close up through their own egos so that dust was magnified into planks. Even then, the hurts wouldn't be there still so painfully if there were open and honest exposure, apology and rectification.

I don't see anybody trying to prove they are "holier-than-you-know". What I see are some people who are offended by this statement: "You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done. Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it."

I may join you potato. . . heartbreaking. But, you know what gets me? In this little scenario. . . the only way to get healing is to learn about God. . . from the only source on earth since the 1st century. . . . PFAL. . . . taught by the unrepentant man who did the hurting. Got me?. . . Sounds really reasonable. . . No? Rascal nailed it. . . the lengths some have gone to simply to justify this man and his theology. Who was he anyway? Just some old guy from Ohio. . . . he wasn't my father or my uncle or guardian of the truth. . . No. . . . he wasn't really anything to me. Why did I EVER think he was?

I would like to submit at this time that vpw's obvious psychological issues compelled him to negate the validity of internal debate because of his own discomfort with it, and to construct an artificial system requiring submission to a single source that replaces multiple centers of reference (or learning). such a system eliminates the need for critical thinking. it eliminates the need to study other points of view. very convenient for the lazy.

Pardon me for saying so, Mike, but that's a wagon full of equine excrement. The class is riddled with errors, not just disagreements over doctrine, real honest to goodness errors. You dodge and dart because you really have no genuine answers. I used to have a U.S. History teacher who demanded answers be given loudly and clearly. He was fond of saying, "When in doubt, mumble." Maybe we could rephrase that to, "When in doubt, dodge and dart." Your sole purpose in posting here is to present what is, in essence, an "info-mmercial" for PFAL. If someone is paying you to sell this garbage, I recommend you get the money up front and stash it in a secret bank account before your customers discover what a poison filled product you've been pitching.

Based on the above stated method, let's consider all the instances in PFAL of the genealogy conundrum and see if we can perform an analysis. If, indeed, PFAL is our only rule of faith and practice, this should be fairly simple.

It seems to me they are trying to sound a little "mainstreamed." I think their sympathy for those in debt is a little overstated. I never got anything but hard-core grief from TWI. We had to sell stock in Pepsi-Co to pay hospital bills because we didn't have insurance when I was diagnosed with IDDM. This after getting screamed at by the MiniMOG for owning stock in the first place. On the other hand, the little WC queen who was our twig leader had elective surgery and wrote it off to Medicaid. Different rules for the elite, I guess; we were not offered that option by the MiniMOG of the hour in that city. The last year they had the ROA, we were ordered to attend. Never mind we didn't have any money and I had been diagnosed with IDDM and a long car ride would be a bad thing for me. So we used a credit card to buy airplane tickets and went, stayed with family, and truth be told, spent as little time at the ROA as possible. Later on, we applied to go to WIB. Well, as our finances were investigated it was discovered by the detectives of TWI that we had (GASP!) used a credit card and were in DEBT! The stuff hit the fan and spread all over the place. How dare we use credit cards and then expect to be allowed the privilege of attending WIB? Who did we think we were! Well, they knew who we were, we were Ananias and Sapphira all over again and they had no idea why God hadn't struck us dead. "Hey, you know what, we never tried to hide the fact, and besides you TOLD us we had to go!" That as you may guess, fell on deaf ears. The money was returned to us (how nice) along with an ABS check upon which I had written the wrong month. That was also an exceeding great sin. Did I understand what a huge inconvenience that was for everyone concerned, including Mr. HA himself? That was such a worldly thing to do! Who in hell did I think I was? Once again, weighed in the balance and found wanting. And I have a word for Ms. Martin: We own a home and pay a mortgage because THAT IS WHAT WE DECIDED WE WANT TO DO! And you know what, Cookie? When we are dead and gone, our child can raise his family in this house, and his children can remember when they played on our porch! Who says you have to rent? Who says you have to have a cult telling you what to think, say and do, anyway? WG

thank you :wub: I'm a huge proponent of a woman having her own accounts, too. and, if she's SAHM, then part of the paycheck should be deposited in her personal savings. why? because she has no social security, should she find herself divorced and disabled, she has no unemployment insurance should she find herself divorced and unemployed, and she's put her own professional skill-building on hold to care for family, ensuring that she'll re-enter the job market at a lower pay level. and in my experience, most guys are not decent about paying alimony. they grumble about every cent, when there's no way their ex-wives can go out and earn for themselves what they need because those wives did everything possible to put their husbands in a position to provide for the family. my own experience was even worse. my ex is a deadbeat, pure and simple. if I'd had 9 months of living expenses in my OWN account, me and the kids wouldn't have ended up homeless.

Wait am I reading this correctly Bolshevik..... Did Martindale teach that the bible was silent about pre marital sex?? But the bible is not silent. The bible is against pre Marital sex....

The secret chamber pot in PFAL

case in point: along came jesus.

I think it already did-----figuratively speaking.

So Mike, Have you heard what Wierwille did to those who disagreed with his only rule of faith and practice, Wierwille!? Wait a minute, I mean ..... Wierwille according to Darby..... Wierwille according to Bullinger..... Wierwille according to Lamsa..... Wierwille according to Leonard..... Wierwille according to Pillai..... Wierwille according to Roberts..... etc. etc. Was destroying lives biblical according to the God Breathed Word? Or was the God Breathed Word twisted to justify Wierwille destroying lives?

Well, I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating. "Snowstorms" were a frequent fallback position for Mr. Wierwille. In 1975 he and Howard were supposed to be in Seattle for a branch meeting or somesuch, and most everyone in the state had converged on a party room at some apartment house in the 'burbs of Seattle for a chance to get a glimpse of His Holiness. We were all packed into the somewhat smallish room breathlessly awaiting the appearing of God's Chosen One, when we got an announcement from the Limb Leader (J#e Co#lt@r) that His Emminence, with great regret, had called from Reno and informed us all that he and Howard were snowed in and NO planes were flying out at all. Gosh, He sure wanted to be there with us, but, sometimes these things happen. (A few lines from PFAL about "believing" and such like flipped through my mind, but HEY!, this was TMOGFODAT, and you know how much the DEVIL was trying to thwart His efforts!) Anyway, the Blessed DOCTOR did a little teaching over the phone, and we paid our respects and homage to His Greatness, and the meeting sorta petered out. Well, the next day a somewhat more cynical member of the congregation called up the airlines to see if there really weren't any flights out. Lo and behold, NONE of the airlines had canceled ANY flights due to ANY sort of snowstorm in Reno. When this news was communicated to the limb, rather than thanks for the investigative work, the lowly believer got his azz handed to him (Can't ya just FEEL the LOVE?). I've since heard of at least two other similar incidents from other ex-Wayfers, and read of one or two others in posts here or on WayDale. It seems like it was just a stock excuse that our Father-in-the-WURD utilized, maybe when he had a bad case of the Brown-Bottle Flu or somesuch. I wonder if the Missus still believed them?

A self imposed hallucination,brought on by delusion of grandeur,not mentioned for years.... Then,when in the mogfot,he introduces it,Why some will think I am crazy.... Always have to have somthing that no one else has,showed how spurtual he was,smoking like a fiend,drinking drambuie from a coffee cup.messin with the women,he was supposed to protect..... He was full of it,a snakeskin oilman promisin the world...knew it was to good to be true.... Daddy told me a good one,from his reachin up to the cookie jar,he spoke to me audibly,wonder how long he sat on that one?

I thought SkyRider's post # 1 was very insightful - in its entirety...OldiesMan in his post # 8 quoted only the first part which I highlighted in bold red and then he said this about it: Just couldn't let this one sneak by…It figures you'd pick out the first part of SkyRider's post that describes only the innocent looking tip of this life-sucking iceberg [a.k.a. TWI]. While TWI's doctrines and programs are powerfully effective in their indoctrination and manipulation process – it is an insidious operation in that it has a gradual and cumulative effect – one that takes TIME – which was the point of the rest of his post!…I'll give you the benefit of a doubt – perhaps you don't see the correlation. Some people don't see the relationship between years of smoking and having major health issues either…Perhaps they're stuck on figuring out another mystery they've stumbled upon – that people who have more birthdays live longer.

Actually..........this thread is about perspective. The longer one stayed around slick vic and his manipulation...........the greater impact from its INDOCTRINATION PROCESS. Of course, you'd like to turn this thread on its ear.......but since you mentioned regret, I think it has a much broader perspective than that. It really keynotes THE ABUSE FACTOR in twi. Yeah, Rascal......has quite a slant to do, doesn't it. :)

Pretty strange way to interpret that post .

is anyone copying or archiving this dang ?