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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

One of the things that exasperated me when in TWI was the writing style. Everything was written as though it were an epistle. I got to the point where I couldn't ever finish a letter or an article because of the wordiness and expounding on minutiae. Most things took a translator to get to the point. Was this by design?

Ham, no, I have not. I have only taken the one course, Intro to Business. But thanks for the advise about classes transferring. Someday I may pursue a Bachelor's degree.

I, for one, welcome our new Wierwille overlords....

Sad. Seems the new boss is the same as the old boss. Must obey authoritay!

I first posted at Trancechat and then Waydale...and now GreaseSpot...whether it's still relevant or not to post about twi depends on your personal perspective. As long as people make bad decisions there will be organizations like twi. It seems that some folks are masochistic enough to continue with their various splinter groups and re-invented cult nonsense...the nefarious nature of this beast is control and abuse...and it seems that there will always be people who enjoy this particular form of self mutilation. Me?...I still post about twi and their gawd awful "tadpole cults" that have spawned in various places...because they stole 13 years of my life and I'm not done speaking my mind about them...probably never will be either. They lie in God's name and steal the innocence of unsuspecting youths. They take your money and bleed your soul. They are parasites that suck people dry and discard them...they are lowlifes of the worst kind. old news?...no more than the third reich is old news. I see that the Germans are putting a near 90 year old man (who's dying) on trial for war crimes that happened nearly 70 years ago...As a wise man told me recently... the bottom line is about revenge...is this any different?

I remember that first exam as well and doing well; what a tremendous accomplishment ! Good luck to you ! Please keep us posted, won't you?

i do love you so much i'm always trying to figure out how you got healed by veepee ministering to you and how much i hate his guts lol however, i think god just loves you so much, he used the bastad

i like brainfixed a lot

i am spending too much time thinking about this place and the issues it raises for me, so i'm going to back off for awhile and find other things to do.

twi never defined "soul", at least it didn't make any sense. One must conclude it doesn't really exist. I can understand a former self, if you came to twi. Otherwise, twi is yourself, and that's what must be suppressed.

guess it depends on how you define "greasespot" Being a "greasespot" is a mindset.

hehe, I'm actually thinking of going to law school, Ham. I've been studying law for several years now. I wrote a research paper on statutory interpretation that's under review by a state agency, and a lawyer has already consulted with me because of my expertise in that particular area of law in my state. a good friend has been encouraging me to go for it. imagine a potato of my age going to law school... but you only live once, right?

I found this article interesting and wanted to post it for others (not just women) who experienced isolation and abuse in twi and are still dealing with depression, anger, health issues, and feelings of social isolation. it seems that long term effects of isolation and abuse are common, even 5 years after getting away people still have symptoms at a higher rate than people who were never abused. http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/11/domes...lity/index.html

galen, hi! love you miss you

pillfal has something just for you :)

timing is only relevant if the tapes are copies and not originals.

So many wasted words. Wierwille was a conman. He exploited our trust to perpetuate his own life of drunkenness, debauchery and greed. No court ruling could ever change that.

You know? These arguments arguing the legality of posting if our experiences here remind me forcefully of twi doctrine and teachings. They sound and look well meaning on the surface, a legitimate consideration....but in reality are designed to accomplish another goal entirely.....And when one carefully begins to examine the content of either...it could be interpreted or construed as nothing more than a means to an end.

when did it become proper musical etiquette to stare at the audience and smile the whole time? I heard a "teaching" about how devilish and egotistical it was to close your eyes when you play. I never looked at it that way. I just figured a musician was absorbed. everyone has different personalities after all and I couldn't see the big deal about how it worked best for them to play.

I don't want to go back to something I've moved on from.

Well, *return to pfal* connotes something very distasteful to me....scriptures being made to say anything a person damned well pleases. PFAL seems to be like the gateway *drug* of twi involvement....The seemingly harmless lead into the abusive teachings ... the justification for mistreatment and evil actions. It was the first step down a very dark path. PFAL was the first step leading away from God. I`d not want to ever go back to that dark and lonely period.

You've piqued my interest. Can you cite some specifics?

Accusations demand no documentation. Evidence is not even required (although it is recommended) to charge someone of a crime. Oftentimes "reasonable suspicion" is sufficient. However, if you want to get a conviction, one either must present compelling evidence, or at least present what evidence has been gathered as compelling enough to sway a jury. As stated before, legal guilt is not to be confused with factual guilt. And as far as "crimes" are concerned, while plagiarism and adultery are bad, they are not prosecuted as "crimes." The women who were drugged to have sex would have a case for rape, as would underage girls. Ministers and others in authority are held to a standard of behavior that assumes the positional authority of the authority figure does not allow for consensual relationships. That is why it is a bad idea for ministers to have sex with members of the congregation, therapists to have sex with clients, lawyers with clients, police with people they stop for traffic violations, teachers with students, prison guards with inmates. In those "relationships" there is a level of implied coercion. Do you not get that? Oh, and by the way, many people have been accused of improper relationships and found themselves out of a job with no charges ever filed or without ever facing prosecution.

oh yeah, and one more thing on "presumption of innocence" under .4... add "otherwise courts would not have discretion to refuse bail."

BUT the phrase "presumption of innocence" ONLY applies to the judiciary process that assumes that most people are not criminals. As others have pointed out, the presumption of innocence is a legal statement, not a factual statement. A person can be legally innocent of a crime, yet be factually guilty. A person can also be legally guilty of a crime, yet be factually innocent. The statement "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard that must be adhered to outside of its intended purpose - which is to give all accused the right to a fair trial. VPW is dead and can't defend himself against the accusations of sexual misconduct, which did not come to light until his death. However, the other allegations, such as his diploma mill doctorate and the plagiarism were never refuted by him - at least not legally. Furthermore, neither TWI nor his heirs have gone after anyone who has claimed sexual abuse at the hands of VPW. The reason why that has not happened (IMO) is because TWI and heirs would then have the burden of proof against the accusers. They weren't able to prove LCM's innocence against his accusers and ended up settling. Do you think TWI would fare any better if they were to take the offensive against posters here regarding VPW's behavior? Let me remind you that TWI has a low threshold of tolerance regarding being seen in an unseemly way (think Rocky Horror - AOTS and Talk Soup), so this ignoring the posts here IMO has more to do with no ground rather than taking any high road. I think that lack of action on the part of TWI and VPW's heirs should speak volumes to you or any of his apologists about where TWI and his heirs think they stand with regards to defending VPW's honor and integrity as the former president of TWI.

I wanted to misrepresent things?...How so? If something is a fact it's a fact...whether it's a crime or whether it's a dog crapping on the lawn (which, by the way...is a crime in certain areas)...if you witness it firsthand, it's a fact...in a court of law...no...it's a fact to the person who witnessed it. Nobody is claiming that Wierwille was convicted of a crime...they are simply stating that they witnessed something and that makes it a fact to them...I'm sure you understand that...right? For example...If you personally witnessed ANYTHING (crime or otherwise)...it would be a fact to you...am I wrong?

Whitedove, You said the following in response to several posts. . . "Nice try but No, we have laws and truth to uphold and we are to obey those laws also a biblical principle." We are not held to "Biblical" principles on this forum or one could argue in this country. We obey laws because the government has the power to incarcerate! Not everyone is Christian. You and I would not even AGREE on what biblical principle IS. That is why we discuss such issues in the doctrinal forum. We follow the rules of the forum. . . articulated and enforced. Presumption of innocence is used in CRIMINAL LAW, not internet forums, and there is no actual statute to require any of US EX-TWIERS to adhere to it on the internet. . . you continue on as if there actually is. Show me the statute.. . cite it. Please don't confuse crimminal law with civil statutes either. . . the burden of proof differs. . . .it would be hard to prove libel here and it is doubtful crimminal libel charges would ever even be considered. I have already explained that burden in relation to public figures. We are not required to bring crimminal charges before we discuss these issues of abuse and suffering at the hands of men we once trusted. No matter how hard you want it to be so. BTW. . . The presumption of innocence is a principle that requires the government to prove the guilt of a criminal defendant and relieves the defendant of any burden to prove his or her innocence. Not that they are innocent until proven guilty, but they don't have to prove their innocence, the government has to prove their guilt and there is due process of law! We are not the government here. . . just the victims of a giant UGLY scam. "The presumption of innocence, is an ancient tenet of criminal law, is actually a misnomer. According to the U.S. Supreme Court, the presumption of the innocence of a criminal defendant is best described as an assumption of innocence that is indulged in the absence of contrary evidence (Taylor v. Kentucky, 436 U.S. 478, 98 S. Ct. 1930, 56 L. Ed. 2d 468 [1978]). It is not considered evidence of the defendant's innocence, and it does not require that a mandatory inference favorable to the defendant be drawn from any facts in evidence. The presumption of innocence principle supports the practice of releasing criminal defendants from jail prior to trial. However, the government may detain some criminal defendants without bail through the end of trial. The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states that excessive bail shall not be required, but it is widely accepted that governments have the right to detain through trial a defendant of a serious crime who is a flight risk or poses a danger to the public. In such cases the presumption of innocence is largely theoretical. Aside from the related requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the presumption of innocence is largely symbolic. The reality is that no defendant would face trial unless somebody — the crime victim, the prosecutor, a police officer — believed that the defendant was guilty of a crime. After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute probable cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court." You can't just ignore what the law actually means in favor of what you want it to mean. . . . just makes it your interpretation. You can think whatever you like about the presumption of innocence. Where it applies. . . what it is. You can get it all mixed up in your head and have it come out in the words you post. That is fine. . . go for it. But, when you try to impose this private standard on others. . . someone will call you on it. Especially here. Ex-cult members tend to spot this tactic a mile away. I wonder why?

actually, WD, I think she was just pointing out your double standard.

ok, so let me get this straight (or see if I can)... "interaction with people is not second hand information it is going to the source." but if that source documents their experience, they are no longer a source, because only "information when documented with evidence is factual" otherwise it's hearsay and cannot be included in the weight of testimony? this isn't a courtroom, and none of the people in leadership positions have a right to expect anyone to take their accusations into a courtroom to prove the truthfulness thereof. in Jesus' time there was both religious and civil legals system, yet it wasn't necessary to establish someone's guilt by taking him to court. Jesus himself said so.

Mike, Just one more question. . . an honest one. . . . you said "There may be some of valid complaints about other situations in the ministry that were pretty bad, but even those can be exaggerated and after 30 years should be put to rest by now" What makes you say this? Did you ever hear rape likened to "soul murder"? There is a reason for that. How do you put THAT to rest? Given the lock box of guilt and shame which was heaped on the poor helpless spiritual peon hobos. . . . without some intense couseling. . . . serious medication. . .and years of recovery. . . . how do you do that? It is always with someone. . . like any event in our pasts. Is PFAL as truth. . . . taught by the one who inflicted such pain. . . really the way to put that to rest? Close your eyes and listen to the teachings of great truth. . . . just put aside this is the one who murdered your soul? If it is truth. . . it is true for everyone. . . no? Doesn't fit like a hand in a glove for me.

this is not about anyone here.

From the newspaper article: Scholarship from whom? I'm wondering if they aren't such "faithful ministers" of TWI that they in fact paid for it - to tie him in even more to them.But then - it took him 5 weeks to get a job. Clearly had never been WoW, where one was required to have a job within 2 weeks (as well as a home and whatever was needed in the home). What was he doing for the other three weeks? Italicized bit: Work, then get blessed? Isn't that a bit like earning a blessing? Surely just to get the job is itself a blessing? After that come further blessings, advancement, promotion, more finances? Where exactly does believing God fit with this self-help outlook? Bold bit: Actually this is precisely what TWI did teach. Instant results to prayer. Not the sustained prayer of a faithful man, sometimes over months and years. Concurrently they did teach (and fair enough) that we didn't need to buy things that cost a lot of money, like houses and cars, but there was merit in saving up. TWI was never into teaching that a better budget might mean outlay on a deposit then time payments, which could result in lower outgoings (like a car purchased over time might do a better job than one purchased a repair at a time - an old junker) but it was "one size fits all needs."

did vpw really say that? when? where? if that's true, that sure explains the treatment I got from a lot of people.

I'm not sure how you mean, "Boy is that rich! " What The Hey. It is certainly not how I'd refer to it if I was close to sexual abuse victims, or any of the ones who committed suicide, or any of the ones who fell into other forms of self destruction in their despair. I wouldn't refer to it like you did here if I was pressed to. I don't even know any of these victims, but frankly, because of the way I use "boy is that rich", the way you seem to employ it angers me. Those people who reached for him like the woman did to Christ should have been taught better by Wierwille himself. He seems to have gotten what he wanted. He was in control.

I do too, I just wanted it out of the snowstorm thread :D people have a lot of viewpoints, and some of us are christian and some aren't. I've found since leaving twi that I don't need to be so concerned with worrying about having one source for my rules of faith and practice, and that I can go back to the beginning and start over from scratch, assessing morality and ethics and even the existence of god from different points of view. and I don't even feel compelled to make a decision on something just because someone else claims it to be true.

And that makes it true because-------?

Likewise to what the other George said. I was at every ROA from '79 to '89 and I never saw such a lady...

OMG! Groucho, did you have to say that? Now I will have nightmares of Wierwille speaking. Something along the lines of Twilight Zone/Night Gallery and Rod Serling is narrating. :blink: <_<

Stinkin' thinkin' I presume...

-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God's work. Why is it that this part of the process didn't fit that definition?

Say, brother – you’re darn right there – I used to call it that too when I was in TWI. However, since leaving I have repented of such presumptuous sins. Especially since Jesus forbids us to make anything other than the kingdom of God and His righteousness the object of our care and concern [Matthew 6:25-34]. TWI followers are sold a get-whatever-you-want type scheme. It’s such an elaborate process that tasks the “believer” to marshal their thinking to get clear and focused on what they want, to work on their believing, confess what they’re believing for, do Bible studies on believing, make sure they’ve found out what’s available & etc., you know the drill…And to be honest all that rigmarole looks like camouflaged worry to me…Yeah, my regret is that I should have spent more time seeking God’s kingdom and righteousness back then – I wouldn’t have wasted so much time chasing TWI’s fantasies that they dangled in front of everyone’s noses! Probably would have left a whole lot sooner…nah…I would have gotten booted out for rocking the boat.

jack dang has he joined our tribe yet ?