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I first posted at Trancechat and then Waydale...and now GreaseSpot...whether it's still relevant or not to post about twi depends on your personal perspective. As long as people make bad decisions there will be organizations like twi. It seems that some folks are masochistic enough to continue with their various splinter groups and re-invented cult nonsense...the nefarious nature of this beast is control and abuse...and it seems that there will always be people who enjoy this particular form of self mutilation. Me?...I still post about twi and their gawd awful "tadpole cults" that have spawned in various places...because they stole 13 years of my life and I'm not done speaking my mind about them...probably never will be either. They lie in God's name and steal the innocence of unsuspecting youths. They take your money and bleed your soul. They are parasites that suck people dry and discard them...they are lowlifes of the worst kind. old news?...no more than the third reich is old news. I see that the Germans are putting a near 90 year old man (who's dying) on trial for war crimes that happened nearly 70 years ago...As a wise man told me recently... the bottom line is about revenge...is this any different?

All, If you saw the thread started by a new grad of the SOWERS program, there seemed to be a swarm to fresh meat. It kind of made me feel like an old grad at twig when (miraculously) a new person showed up. 13 pages (and counting) of posts but only a few from the guy who started it. He seemed to drop off fast and we just kept it among ourselves. Have we talked TWI to death yet? Or is there still more or new things to cover? As an irregular poster, others here may be better able to answer. JT

This new SOWERS program is proof that the beast's heart is still beating. It's like a stinking time machine, designed to go back and start The Corps and Fellow Laborers all over again. They seem to have completely disregarded any valuable lessons that might have been gleaned from TWI history. Sure, it looks harmless enough today, but what assurances are there it will turn out any different when, in fact, the very principles it has been fashioned after have been proven to be defective and dangerous? In fact, how do we really know it isn't a phantom effort of the monster that spawned it? TWI is still current news, IMO.

I wish it was talked to death. . . . you don't have to have special x-way glasses to see the havoc it has caused in the lives of so many or the continuing dysfunction of some of its victims. The fact that there are still people living well and fatted off draining funds from their "members" means it is still a nasty yet viable operation. Maybe when the BOT are holding up signs on a street corner saying "Will work for food" that might satisfy.

Then look at the stiffi's.. they started their organization, on the basis of the worst arrogance that had ever embodied the way.. didn't sit around and read their bibles and stuff for a few years.. "we've left Egypt, and WE've got the GOLD...." and it got worse.. "personal prophecy" and all.. embracing the austerity of momentus..

and the worst part is, this is where they start. It took the vicster a number of years to develop this kind of harshness in the organization. And where he failed, loy picked up the cause.. these guys are starting their their little organization at one of the worse levels of corruption in da way's history. The sowers grad kid.. after nine months of browbeating acknowledged he didn't like the rules, that it wasn't exactly a pleasurable experience, but somehow da "manogawd" is not to be questioned, but defended at all costs.. practically. I wonder about the other three..

Just when you thought the beast breathed its last breath.. there it is again.. Its not twi so much anymore, I don't think. Its its spawn.. organizations who embrace the same theology, arrogance, tiered organizational structure, practical methods of beating submission and subservience into the lower tier, unchallengeable authority for those on top, and the like. Particular beliefs do not really bother me. Its the other issues they inherited from the mother organization. And they think twi was a good thing, that just went "sour" when the "bad people" came along.. I think ANY organization, who produces trainees who sing the praises of a "great manogawd" who happens to be a under thirty year old, unmarried (probably still) inexperienced still sopping wet behind the ears KID.. qualifies as dangerous. They inherit the arrogance of vic I, that one can just read the bible, and PRESUME to be "God's Spokesman".. As far as the way itself, I think they are hobbled, damaged, and even if they repent in sack-cloth and ashes, likely will not recover.. so the discussion isn't so much about them any more, at least in my opinion. I think it is highly relevant addressing it's spawn.. using the same tools, trying to produce different results..

Ham you just need to learn to be more outspoken - smirk

...Good questions Jim. I don't suppose that our young Sowers poster has those answers...and if he did, they would probably be the same crapola that was spoon fed to us those many years ago... The bottom line is that these creeps are just another example of how the scam that Wierwille pulled on everyone is still alive and well...God sells...collect the money and convince yourselves that you are the "ones". Yeah right, been there, done that...and I'm the fifth Beatle too. Vic jr...get a real job before you end up in a rubber room.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>These are cool - I want to see a billion of these marching on all of the evil empire

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

As it is now, they hold up signs that read, "Will PREACH for food."

Oh. . . a plague. . . cool.

Just so I get the wording correct here.. he confronted the vicster, who was at the time rambling on about demanding accountability and putting "teeth" in the "love of god", vic I hissing about how the "love of god" doesn't work.. hafta do something drastic to people.. I don't think there is anybody left in that organization who would have an ounce of objectivity, at least as regards this little adventure in the swamp. I don't think there is a competent "body" or "church" to even work with here..

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I can almost see him saying "I'll be stone cold dead before this happens again.." say whatever negative you would like about him.. he did confront gramps on putting some kind of austerity and accountability (teeth) into the love of God.. and what do you particular set of morons do..

And to the board.. the only one I'd remotely consider in your "support group" who I'd trust to launch any kind of inquiry.. is dead.. and you waited what.. about a month so he'd be cold in the ground, before you did your official ground breaking..

and.. the main reason I did not go through your "support group".. I don't think your aunt should have to relive this kind of bull crap..I will never bring matters to that.. though you might.. you're on your own fella..

So after the great "training".. you've got one "graduate" that's confused.. but still sold (somewhat) on your product.. 1. Didn't like the "rules" 2. Admits it wasn't "perfect" 3. Learned "something".. but cannot exactly verbalise what "it" is.. 4. Calls a largely unproven youth a "great man of god".. and doesn't really exactly know why.. that's twenty five percent of the results that we know, of your program.. of everything he posts.. the only thing he is really solid on.. he considers a young, unproven youth as a "great man of god". was that the entire aim of the "training"? well, just one more question to put in queue..

A "real" organization would have someone responsible to respond to this kind of public inquiry.. long before it got "out of hand".. now you've got hundreds of issues to address.. to show not to me, though that would be nice.. but to yourself.. that your organization is worth even a grain of salt..

And I'll add.. what is the sowers bylaws or ethics regarding sexual relations between staff and "students"..? is it ok for the spiritually "mature"? or is it another way for a "manogawd" to be able to "minister" to the group.. like gramps said, an area for a "manogawd" to "lighten up" in.. or is it.. what? Can you honestly say, "wrong on all counts"? or is that too much "legalism" to yoke a blood sucking sycophant with? Can you just say ANYTHING? Note: this is not an accusation. It is a question.. I would have much rather have preferred a discrete simple personal answer.. but now its long past that.. like the original question, what are you doing that is any bit different from the old "ministry".. These really should not be "hard questions".. if they are that hard.. I've made it easy.. try multiple choice.. I've made it as easy as it can possibly be.. If you don't like inquiry, you are in the wrong business, bub..

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Funny how he could use his "believing" to get lots of these: and lots of this: But he couldn't use it to avoid one of these:

There has been something along the lines of a "law" of believing around for quite a while. Unfortunately, TWI in its need to reinvent everything, totally screwed it up. Rather than propagate abundance and trust that God wants us to have blessings and abundance, TWI's take on "believing" created a sense of scarcity and fear that God's protection was conditional. It was OK and practically required to step out on "believing" by spending money that one didn't have on behalf of TWI (buying tapes, books, classes, and abundant sharing), but cause for admonishment for people to step out on their own behalf by doing things such as purchasing a home or buying a car with the belief that God would provide what one needed to pay the bills. What I saw as "crazy" was how TWI wanted to work against common sense, like the idea that one could chain smoke and "believe" for perfect health. Or that one could drink excessively, and not suffer ANY consequences. Those behaviors are not consistent with any of the affirmative belief systems that I am familiar with. I walked away from the TWI model, just like most of you have, because it obviously wasn't working.

I was thinking something like that.. look what the "cult" life turned a college educated jock into in the old *ministry*.. a nutcase with delusions of grandeur.. and when defrocked, likely a diet of sedatives and anti-depressants that would stop a bull elephant.. that's partly what one of my questions referred to.. what are you going to do when it doesn't really "work"..

The thing I don't understand is the dodging and secrecy.. I mean, isn't it just a tad bit EARLY in the life cycle of an organization for that? I thought that came after they had more than just a few volunteers, and lotsa money flowing in the coffers.. they"ve skipped all the preliminary steps (along with the loot) and gone directly to da way as it is today.. gone from zero to abundantly over-arrogant in less than a year.. maybe it was just founded in bitterness and arrogance.. to begin with.

I'd just be happy to know the kid is still in one piece..

The "schizophrenic" part of it is that these "men" want to be (or have the appearance of being) some kind of great "menogawd".. and that is a PUBLIC role. But they feel inquiry is a violation of their private lives.. which makes me conclude, their public and private lives and ethics are far, far removed from one another.. in real life, they have no more power than me.. no power to silence their (supposed) critics.. their pants don't go on any different in the morning.. the "great manogawd's" "humility" he speaks of.. is only part of the public personna.. in private, I get a response to a few relatively easy questions.. in essence, "harrumph.. an elder outgher not act like that.." I guess the "elders" are supposed to kiss his rear..

I agree.. its the same.. same as the old "ministry" in every manner.. including the dodging and secrecy of those on top.. so they sit comfy with diligently and precisely split hardwood fire in their fireplaces.. and send child warriors out on missions like this.. technically, he's probably doing exactly as they "trained" him..

but he's confused.. would he go through the program again? Noooo.. did he like the "rules"..? Noooo.. as bad as this sounds.. I think the parents couldn't figure out any other place for him to go.. he seems to have a good work ethic and all.. I wonder who really is calling the shots in all of this.. is he back on the parents farm.. seventy hours of work a week? too many questions.. too few answers..

I do not, for one minute, doubt their sincerity. I listened to the mp3 a couple of times and it seemed like JWS really wanted to make the birth event "special" in yet another way, which is kinda ironic in that TWI spent so much time debunking the 3 kings (magi, wise men) tradition, and the whole Christmas tradition in general.

They didn't want to (or know how to) help people with significant problems. It was just easier to kick them out.

Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. Complete waste of time, money, heart and everything I wasted on that terrible outfit. Anything worthwhile that can be gleaned from it can be learned much more easily and less painfully and in less time just by living life and applying common sense. Any good is absolutely completely overshadowed by the vile thought and behavior control and abuse. If you want to wreck your life, try heroin. It's cheaper, less destructive and easier to kick. Plus, you will find it easier to explain to others when they ask you what you wasted your youth on. Burn HQ to the ground and turn it back into a farm if anything will still grow in that corrupted dirt. That's the nicest thing I can say about the organization, and don't get me started on its sick, perverted, lying, diseased founder or his successors. And I'm in a good mood right now so I'm holding back.