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Caleb - couple of thoughts for you - meant in all earnestness. A lot, if not most, of the people that are regulars here are old enough to know your mom and maybe your grandma. Anywhere from 5-25 years in TWI and for some a few more years in some offshoots where, in some or perhaps many cases, the damage continued. Everyone with a brain will respect your right to "religious" choice - heck it's your constitutional first amendment right. Bear in mind however that SOWERS has some "roots", if you will, in an organization which was so damaged, and in many ways malicious, that that is how GSC came to be - a gathering place (read mission statement) "to tell the other side of the story." Some here will be genuinely curious - some have been damaged enough that they are never going to listen to you. Go with the flow like any other networking site. Talk to the people not to the organization. No one goes to facebook and talks much about facebook - people go to facebook to yak at each other - consider GSC a microcosm of that - a group of people who have some rather odd past experiences in common (to lesser or greater degrees) who often enjoy yakking about anything from sports, cooking, to TWI. One other thought - at the age of 22 you might want to just keep some options open. Hope it all works out for you. RR

Honestly no-they are not for me. I dont understand the jubilation at a free Bible teaching Is that something new, remarkable and revolutionary somewhere? I can walk into just about any church in the world or turn on the TV in just about any city or poke around the internet and hear bible teachings for free anytime of the day or night. If you like them ---fine--but its not like they are doing anything new, or that they shouldnt be doing anyway. Is it? The weird part was that they were ever charging in the first place

Over the years the structure of CES has changed, but initially it was a lot like TWI, which involved paying for tapes/CDs and video. When they instituted the "partnership" program, audio teachings and the bimonthly newsletter came along with the partnership. Pretty much everything was sent out first class mail. Even mass mailings were sent straight first class, which is very costly. Now that the Sower's print version is printed on slick paper and is in full color, it costs a lot more money to produce. There is a certain economies of scale, but that break point is in the hundreds. I had always advocated that the teachings and what became the sower should be freely available, and the easiest and cheapest way to distribute was in electronic format. Continue to sell the books and whatever on media (if that's the preferred delivery method by the buyer), but pass those costs on to those buyers. I argued that once you have the production equipment bought and paid for, there is only the cost of maintenance or replacement. If you have the cost of media, duplication, packaging, postage, and mailing materials on top of that, it's hard to control costs. Particularly since they weren't taking advantage of bulk rates. Electronic media has none of those costs past the cost and maintenance of the production equipment. In my mind, it was a no-brainer to move to electronic distribution, and advocated it as early as 2002. Once they were able to move past the TWI model of materials distribution (which revolves around the notion that charging people for teachings makes them more receptive), and found they had the ability to post videos and audio on free sites, only an idiot wouldn't take advantage of that. But they really had to get past the money = appreciation dynamic. The Biblical Unitarian site, which was mine, showed them that making everything freely available would generate more interest. Jeff was really the one who caught on and asked me to set up the TorT site. Both of the sites are dated (visually), and I wouldn't be using the format at all, but the reasons behind that are based on antiquated notions about how search engine optimization works. I think that STF has it wrong about church and that is because it still clings to too many things TWI. TWI followed a "tree" structure, while STF is basically a weed patch. There is no central core of corporate worship from which small groups emerge. STF produces teachings and independent groups affiliate. So to answer your question, I'm not particularly jubilant. They could have been doing this years ago, and they haven't even made a scratch in uncovering their potential (assuming that God wants them to be more visible).

Proverbs 24:10 is appropriate here..

Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi? Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved. It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure. I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.

Ha ha, this thread belongs right next to "Cat Whispering"! Maybe, Ham, I should try feeding Crypto egg yolks. Problem will be keeping Tuxedo away from them. Waysider: ain't that just like cats. They know when to react, and when to carry on snoozing. Brainfixed: you'd enjoy Cat Whispering (Open forum) I haven't yet see Go-Cat in "Bacon and Egg" flavor (or even just Egg) but that might go down a treat. I did suggest to them that they made a flavor Robin and Starling, or Mouse and Shrew, but they didn't seem to think that was a good idea.

Yeah---just not "every day". :blush:

Jeff, you summed up my reaction pretty well. thank you.

Actually I think there is a step that churches teach that you may have missed. . . . that coming to Jesus moment called repentance. Part of being born again. I think they use both Jesus and Jesus Christ in church. . . . . since it is a personal relationship with the Lord. . . the name Jesus is spoken with reverence and held in honor. Not all churches are good, but there are many wonderful churches who preach the gospel. You should go to one sometime. . . might just surprise you.

I take it that you dont go out to many churches. Being that my profession involves working in churches I go to about 50 or more a year and I havent heard that phrase at any of them in about 18 years-- and when I did hear it last, back in 1991, it that was a grand total of exactly once. I dont know where you are going to hear these things but it is not commonplace at all, and certainly not nearly as common as youd lead others to believe. Whats with all the church hate anyway ? Is John 13:35 not in your bible? did someone rip it out or twist it around somehow I knew that they used to because they sent me their mailers (advertisements) for abunch of years--after checking their site--well yup. lookee, lookee they still do

that was a backhanded apology so not accepted and also the Word of God according to the bible is jesus not the bible.

And you know this because you've been in a variety of churches? Or is it because you've been told that's what they teach. You sound like a replay of Martinale.

Twinky, the fella did come back and post. Jeff, I think you ought to lighten up a bit. Caleb apologized. Most of us don`t have a full understanding of how truly reprehensible twi leaders and off shoot leaders behavior has been when we arrive here. I seem to remember being reprimanded by you for speaking ill of wierwille when you first arrived. It takes time to learn and come to grips with the true horrors of what many of us have suffered. It takes time to re evaluate an entire life time of beliefs and teachings in light of that. I don`t think that running at somebody with a ball bat swinging is going to help them hear a different point of view. This kid had the guts to post, and the grace to apologize. There are several pages of questions directed at him, some pretty harsh. It might seem like a gang banging to him. I`d like to hear what he has to say.

there is NO proof of which "god" or "jesus" is "right" or "wrong" but mockery of others IS wrong according to ANY interpretation of the bible.

I'm not so sure this will be interesting at all. We pretty much know what will be said by the first post.