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Oh, they're full of it, alright.

Back in business! Don't forget the Donate button. George

A big thank you goes out to all that make this happen!

“…when they claim to speak for God…” This is your sign that they do not. They are either under a misapprehension or are lying.

Charity, you SURMISED correctly. I just viewed a YouTube short that calls out mindlessness. IOW, acting/believing because someone told us something which we accept without challenging. Victor Wierwille gave absolute (private) interpretations of scripture. In many cases, some of us wrote notes in our bibles to memorialize those absolutes. I don't subscribe to William Brooks' interpretations/declarations. BUT, I can't argue with his notion/desire to challenge what he was taught. That's the whole idea behind Proverbs 2:1-5. Here's another caveat: while I wouldn't discourage him from challenging any given teaching/interpretation/declaration of twi, I would counsel against anyone accepting his claims without challenging them mindfully. IOW, he would have to make sound arguments for how/why what he claims to be true is actually true.

Another one..

Well done, WW. The academic term for this is Trauma Bond

So, Melissa Rauch stars in the new Night Court. (She plays Harry Anderson's daughter.) In tonight's episode, Mayim Bialik, plays herself, appearing in Rauch's court. Rauch is a big "Blossom" fan and strikes up a friendship with Bialik. Bialik mentions that she was also in "The Big Bang Theory." "Oh, were you in that? My favorite was the blonde with the high voice!" George

That was a text-filled image. Here's what it says. "Dearest Saints, God bless you abundantly. What we commonly recognize as the first Rock of Ages emerged into full fruition in August of 1971, although with quite humble beginnings. The main stage consisted of two flatbed trailers. This stage was situated in an unpretentious spot under a willow tree near the creek that flows through the grounds of The Way International Headquarters. The nonconventional decorations on the stage paired well with the numerous musical groups of differing skill levels. Things weren't perfect. One night during the event the power even went out, affecting the lighting and sound. But that summer at this "Christian music festival,"things occurred of gigantic spiritual proportions. About a thousand people attended. Young people from all over the country gathered to hear the bands play and to fellowship with each other. But they were there for another reason also. They wanted to hear the rightly divided Word of God and see it live bigger in their lives. In addition to the energized teachings, the first call was made for Word Over the World (WOW) Ambassadors. WOW Ambassadors would be sent all over the United States to preach and teach God's Word. About one-quarter of the participants went out as WOW Ambassadors that year in three waves. It is clear that many who attended "ROA '71" had their lives wonderfully changed forever. Over the next twenty-four years, the Rock of Ages became an annual event. It changed as the needs of the ministry changed. It naturally adapted into a gathering for the whole family- with good fun, good food, and good fellowship, but still centered around the Word of God. For several years the event was held at local fairgrounds equipped to accommodate the growing interest, but in 1978 it came back to the grounds of The Way International. For the next number of years it grew in various capacities. Then in 1995 it was discontinued. We now have the magnificent joy and privilege to once again host the Rock of Ages at The Way International. It will be a beautiful blend of the old and the new. It will have elements of nostalgia, but with a modern flair carefully intertwined. It will give believers some relaxing days that are full of sweet fellowship, rich with the love of God, and lavish with God's rightly divided Word. It will be an inspiring time of seeing Way Ambassadors commissioned and Ambassadors once again sent forth from the Rock. Yes, ROA '25 is for those who love God, of all generations and at all levels of spiritual maturity. And it will reflect this heart expressed by our Founder, Victor Paul Wierwille, in 1983: " It is wonderful to be home again for the fellowship of believers where the family [of God] is the center of joyful living." Make your plans now and diligently prepare so that nothing hinders your participation in this splendid occasion. Believe big to overcome any obstacle. There may be many life-changing events in a person's short time here on earth, but this will be among the greatest of them all. It will be the Rock of all Rocks. So...SEE YOU AT THE ROCK! In our Father's love, Vernon W. Edwards President

Let's see.... Thin white guy, lots of makeup.... shock rock, harsh music....weird, dark stage imagery... stage name's first name is a woman's name... let's see... where have I heard of that before....

On a more positive note, Happy New Years to everyone on GSC.

I must confess, the ambiguity escaped me at first glance. But, Happy New Year to all. Let's hope it's a good one.

I THINK you thought correctly. I brought him up last May in the Deconversion thread. BTW, I checked out those other Charlie Kirk videos. Though Charlie attempts to support his political ideology with the "Bible tells me so," Dan refutes his claims with actual Bible verses in a non-political way. But I get your point and will respect it. The one about migrants is immensely satisfying - a righteous evisceration. Wow!

Today I earned that victor not only ripped off Oral Robert's Fourth Man sermon, he claimed as his own Robert's personal story of preaching to the trees. WITAF! This is as petty and weak as his plagiarizing poetry.

BTW, we've previously discussed and whether or not he was completely a fraud. That is, was he even a Christian at all, or was it all an act from the beginning? Was he a Christian once whose sins dominated his ministry, or was he a fraud from the beginning of his career? We know- by his own wording- that he chose ministry out of 3 possible careers, besides business or entertainment, and it was a toss-up. The only indications he was actually interested in God before his decision was 2 anecdotes- and vpw lied a lot. One anecdote was when he was a kid. A preacher showed up and preached at his local church. When the preacher asked him what he planned to be when he grew up, vpw supposedly said he wanted to be a man of God like the preacher. vpw followed this up with saying that he'd thought that he himself wasn't serious when he said it. "You know how kids talk." So, even he didn't believe that story. The other story was that he would shirk his chores as a kid and run off into the woods for hours. When there were no witnesses, he supposedly was off "preaching to the trees" and practicing how to preach. Naturally, nobody came forward and said they ever saw him do it, even once. Even more naturally, vpw- most obviously a big plagiarist- plagiarized that story as well as all the others he plagiarized. ORAL ROBERTS preached to the trees. He fought his own stage fright by going among trees and got used to addressing them as if they were the public, making altar calls and so on. Now, with the internet, that story is easy to find, and easy to trace to Oral Roberts. In vpw's lifetime, it was a LOT harder to catch him plagiarizing, without access to the internet. We know that his efforts in school leading up to the ministry were slack enough that his father had to get involved for vpw to be allowed to continue his education. By vpw's own admission, when he claimed to choose the ministry, his own father pointed out he lacked the discipline to be a decent farmer, and thought the ministry would require MORE dedication. When in divinity school, vpw chose the SOFTEST option available- preaching. He skipped studying church history, church languages, and so on. Later, he pretended to know both, but, as we've seen since. he was awful at both. His area of study was "homiletics"- or putting together sermons. How hard is that? Most of the posters here, if not all the posters here, have done it at some point, when in twi. We called them "teachings" but they were sermons by another name. vpw went to school for it, we did not. That's how soft an option that was. According to vpw himself, when he was first assigned a church to pastor, the local elders gave him almost no instructions. Rather than focus on what his congregation needed, he supposedly spent the entire first month focusing on going completely against what the local elders had said, and mouthed off to them when they confronted them on it. The story rings hollow and sounds made-up because they didn't have him removed and the church locals didn't stop attending when he spent his entire first month focusing ALL of his sermons on giving money to the church. However, as a lie, it shows his frame of mind- that he thinks that this is an appropriate lie to tell of his early days as a preacher. And he didn't spin this as "but I learned better and I thank God I'm not like that any more", he gave that as an example of his frame of mind, that he chafed at authority so much he would preach "up" if he was told to preach on "down,", and focusing all his sermons on talking people into giving him money was fine. Did you think it was a new thing with him that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" (why I should give twi my money) was mandatory reading for all pfal students, a book they paid for with their pfal tuition, a book they paid retail prices for, a book printed in-house for a LOT less than they paid? He got a job editing the sermons and articles of other Christians. Shortly thereafter, he got used to re-preaching whatever they'd worked at. In short, in his entire career, he plagiarized freely whenever and wherever he was able. He himself admitted that he's completed his entire divinity education, and spent his entire first year preaching BEFORE he ever believed the Bible was the Word of God. Is it even possible to believe a man could spend that much time as a GENUINE ministry student and preacher and not have that as A foundation for everything if not THE foundation for everything? By his own admission, TWICE in his first year as a preacher, he considered giving up as a minister. I'm supposed to believe he was a dedicated, GENUINE minister when he kept looking back and considering hanging it all up. What changed everything? All evidence points to him ripping off/plagiarizing BG Leonard's class, and JE Stiles book, both in the same year, and making those the 1.0 version and following of pfal. (The very first pfal class, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today", was a ripoff clone of Leonard's class in EVERY detail, and remained so until he added Stiles' work, then Bullinger's work.) All evidence points to him being a fraud from the beginning. Every step was calculated as a business move, and none of it was "at the behest of God Almighty." When all of this came up, the counter-argument- the claim that vpw was always actually genuine, was entirely based on four things. A) Everything he taught was accurate, and of God, so he must have been connected to God to be that correct. vpw claimed to work by revelation, so he must have been working by revelation. As it turns out, the main reasons to believe he worked by revelation were his own claims he did so, and certainly all claims everything he taught was accurate run the same way- since we've examined some of his work and found errors all over it. Understandable as human error, but a problem if supposedly it was ALL by revelation, and so on. B) vpw claimed "the 1942 promise." vpw claimed God Almighty spoke to him, and that was the basis for his preaching, and of the material he presented later. It didn't take a lot of work to show that these claims didn't hold water. They fell apart easily when examined. Once again, vpw, a chronic liar, had lied to his congregation. C) I feel really blessed when I hear his teachings, and I felt really blessed when I was in twi, so vpw must have been genuine. Well, genuine Christians were in twi, and there was genuine, plagiarized material. I could see either blessing someone, even if vpw was a complete fraud. Furthermore, by vpw's own admission, feeling really blessed when he himself taught meant nothing- some people make similar claims about sitting on a Psychiatrist's couch (something he denigrated, probably because he was in competition with Psychiatrists who completed medical school.) So, those claims don't hold water, either. D) vpw sounded really sincere when he taught for decades, and supposedly nobody could sound sincere faking it for decades. YES THEY COULD. Now, none of US could do that, because we have a conscience. A true sociopath (like vpw) could brazenly go for decades, presenting things he didn't believe, to people who did believe them, in order to bring in the money. Certainly, any half-decent actor- or any half-skilled CON ARTIST- could do it for an entire sermon, given the right materials (like being able to plagiarize all the materials, the presentations, and so on, from real preachers.) So long as it was clear it was all for the stage, any decent actor could keep doing it- like Steve Martin performing in the movie "Leap of Faith". But his conscience would bother him if he pretended to be real while faking it and actually preaching at the pulpit. Heck, early acting exercises have actors practicing to speak convincingly while speaking literal gibberish. Any number of politicians have gone and given speeches they didn't really believe, and delivered them with gusto, as if they believed them. (No examples, please, politics is off-limits at the GSC.) I once saw comedian/actor John Candy deliver an example of that. He got onstage pretending to be a member of the Canadian Parliament. All of the MPs are supposed to be bilingual in English and French, but many don't know much French, and that was the basis for the joke. With lots of florid hand gestures and looking "genuine", he delivered a speech in French- in poorly-pronounced French. The subtitles clued English-speakers in on the jokes. "Good evening and welcome. I do not speak French. This speech was written for me by someone else, and I don't understand a word I am saying. I am a fat English pig." The entire time, that was delivered every bit as if he was giving a genuine speech. It's the example I know best, but it's common enough for actors. Faking it can be done if someone's conscience doesn't stop them. So, the only remaining objection doesn't hold water, either. Oh, there was also the "argument" that vpw was real because he spoke in tongues. No matter what twi said and says now, speaking in tongues can be faked, speaking in tongues with interpretation can be faked, word of prophecy can be faked. We had some heavy discussions as to whether or not they WERE ALL faked, or if they simply WERE faked LOTS OF TIMES. We know some were faked because some of us faked them at the time- all while trying to be genuine and meaning well, but faking it anyway because that's how we were taught. Now, I actually changed my position as a result of these discussions. I once believed it was all real, and now believe all the "speaking in tongues/interpretation" of twi and that style was and are all faked. (I'm convinced most of the "word of prophecy" was faked, but not all of it, I believe some of it was genuine.) Nobody is required to agree with me, but it's clear enough that SIT CAN be faked. So, the idea that vpw should be believed to be genuine because he was seen to SIT doesn't hold water either- it can be faked. Why do people believe it can't be faked? That's what we were taught by vpw- a man who lied to us all the time. Do you know the difference between "sincere" and "insincere"? vpw didn't. He said that the man who tries to sell you a toothbrush with only one bristle has to BE really sincere. UNTRUE. The man has to FAKE sincerity, he has to APPEAR sincere. Unless he is a complete moron, he would have to know such a product is defective and useless for its proclaimed purpose. He would be trying to con you, and APPEAR sincere while he FAKED his sincerity. Why would vpw be unable to understand such a simple distinction? It was part of his character. To him, there was no difference between BEING sincere- meaning it from the heart- and FAKING sincerity- looking like you meant it from the heart but faking all of it, making a performance with a genuine appearance. All evidence points to vpw having been a fraud from Day One. Oh, perhaps something, somewhere was genuine, but being 100% fake and being 95% fake pretty much look the same.

We know the exact brand of nicotine products he smoked. We know the exact type of alcohol he drank. How many churches do you think have that as common knowledge among the rank-and-file? Right- most ministers don't smoke and many or most don't drink. BTW, he often chided people for lack of self-discipline. This was from a man notorious for angry fits without explanation or warning, whose addiction to tobacco killed him, and who was a chronic alcoholic. Don't believe me that he was a "chronic alcoholic"? We know what he drank. When he was away from the office for a few days, people were assigned to buy some for him. He couldn't manage a weekend without it? We also know that he carried a coffee mug around a lot- which didn't have coffee in it. When he was expected to speak, he had a system in place to cover alcohol breath. He had as a requirement that a bowl of mints be provided right where he was supposed to speak. When he would show up, he would put a mint in his mouth, break it in half- to release the most effective breath coverage all at once, then start speaking. We know that because he was once misunderstood. He explained to someone that he broke the mints in half- but didn't explain about covering alcohol breath. They went off thinking he likes mints broken in half. So, the bowls started to have mints pre-broken in half. That lasted until he finally complained, they explained, and he clarified that he broke them in his mouth (without explaining it covered alcohol breath.) So, he had procedures in place to help cover his chronic drinking. His chronic smoking is what gave him the cancer that killed him. We had long arguments about this. vpw insisted that the cancer was caused by the bright studio lights he used for 2 weeks while recording pfal. Ask any actor- bright studio lights do not cause cancer. If they did, Broadway and London's West End would be full of horror stories of great actors and actresses who got cancer when they did a 3-month run of a show. We're supposed to believe 2 weeks of those lights would give cancer. The only evidence of bright lights causing cancer came up when looking at professional WELDERS who didn't wear a welding mask. So, if you're teaching by the light of an OXY-ACETYLENE TORCH, you might be at risk for cancer, but even then, not so likely if you only do it for 2 weeks. We do know that chronic alcohol consumption weakens the immune system, making it easier to die from cancer, since your immune system is being beaten up when it's needed most. We also know that tobacco smoke exposure to eyes is a risk factor for getting eye cancer. So, vpw smoked a lot, and delivered a lot of smoke to his eyes, over decades. He got eye cancer, which spread and killed him, and his immune system was not able to fight it off. Which makes more sense? A) His chronic smoking started the cancer, and his chronic drinking multiplied the cancer's effectiveness in killing him. or B) 2 weeks of exposure to lights that don't cause cancer mysteriously caused him to get cancer over a decade later. To quote vpw himself, "You would have to be stupider than stupid" to think it was the bright lights. The only reason to even consider the lights is because vpw said it. Big surprise... the man was a liar, and he lied often, to everyone. His saying something is true is proof of nothing. The man lied all the time, without guilt and without hesitation.

My experiences as a Way Corps leader back in the 1970s and 1980s included providing those "perks" for VPW that WordWolf mentioned. So WordWolf is not making up what he posted. That is the kind of man he was. Take those perks, drink that booze, sexually assault women and get away with it. Too many women have told me their stories, independently from one another, not to believe that is true. So that is the man that followers of The Way even TODAY praise as a "great man of God." Actions speak louder than words ...

I believe it was in penwork's Undertow book where she mentioned the large piles of money that came in during the ROA from passing the baskets. I'll look it up because I was amazed how barrels full of cash were carted off somewhere to be counted. Studying how twi's book "Christians Should be Prosperous" was wrong according to scripture and then being insulted and dismissed by the top leadership when I went to discuss it with him was the day I walked away from twi without ever looking back.

Worked BP at the ROA a couple of times in the early 80’s. One shift I was working at the entrance to the driveway leading to (I think) Wierwille’s home. We were specifically told only vehicles with a certain colored pass were allowed through. A black limo rolls up. We stop it. Driver arrogantly demands that we let him through. We explain about the pass. He, again arrogantly informs us that The Way only has one limousine & this is it. We don’t budge. Finally the back window rolls down & it’s Howard Allen. Yeah, we let him through, but how difficult would it have been for the driver to get the pass that BP was being told to require for entry? Other than that, I worked the swing shift, so I had a legitimate reason for skipping the main evening teaching. Also a female friend would stop by to make out after things slowed down

I feel this is spot on. With wierwille's doctrinal error such as "keeping our affair in the lockbox" and "everything is ok as long as it's done in believing"...(I'm paraphrasing but hopefully my examples communicate) --- Wierwille was above sin. The depravity he allowed in his own life was backed up with twisted scriptures. Then based on his twisted scriptures he expected others to excuse his depravity. I feel this still goes on today with followers who overlook his obvious sinful life because he taught us the word....barf.

Chockfull, your post got me thinking about the importance of appropriately evaluating wierwille’s life and works. According to some wierwille/PFAL fans we should appreciate the good things he taught us. The more I thought about it, I kept going back to one of the passages I listed in my previous post – here – discussing the impact of sin AFTER salvation...the ramifications of one person’s sinful behavior can affect the rest of the local church. Note in I Corinthians 5 Paul is coming down on them for tolerating a church member’s sinful behavior (which would include church leaders ); basically Paul is saying such open-mindedness is dangerous because it’s like yeast that starts the fermentation process in a new batch of dough…FYI yeast consists largely of fungus cells - spore-producing organisms that feed on organic matter that produces fermentation - in biochemistry, it is narrowly defined as the extraction of energy from carbohydrates in the absence of oxygen. I can imagine sin as something in a scary sci-fi movie about a creature who sucks the lifeforce out of other beings. No wait – I’ve actually seen this movie! It’s The 4-D Man a 1959 film. Now read I Corinthians 5 and see if you think confronting sin is that important to the health of the church. Paul’s instructions apply to ALL members of the local church: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” I Corinthians 5 NIV I don’t see here or anywhere else in Scripture a directive that says when it comes to sinful behavior, we’re to cut certain folks some slack because of their special status in the church. Instead, another passage comes to mind: Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism…Acts 10:34 Barnes notes on the KJV “no respecter of persons” - The word used here denotes "the act of showing favor to one on account of rank, family, wealth, or partiality arising from any cause." It is explained in James 2:1-4. A judge is a respecter of persons when he favors one of the parties on account of private friendship, or because he is a man of rank, influence, or power, or because he belongs to the same political party, etc. from Bible Hub Commentary Acts 10:34 …yet in TWI what I witnessed is that most way corps who had been around wierwille for a while were acclimatized to his decadent lifestyle. I think his depraved way of life was subsumed under the general opinion that he was so spiritual…was so spiritually mature…he so renewed his mind that he was unaffected by sin and maybe not even susceptible to sin…of course he’d go on about how humble he was and had no problem forgiving others because he knew what God forgave him for…sounds pretty sweet and fair-minded doesn’t it? God only knows – may be an unrepentant sinner’s famous last words. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2 wierwille probably thought he was serving God’s word to the way corps as he served up his immorally laced ideology. what a betrayal of trust! Many of us assumed he was THE MAN OF GOD FOR THIS DAY AND TIME AND HOUR while he lived a double life… To the general public of TWI he was “the teacher of PFAL” yet he also maintained a separate…simultaneous… and secret depraved lifestyle. Paul’s words to the Corinthian church are just as relevant to the way corps today: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate…And you are proud! Must be something wrong with the way corps’ scale of values. For whatever weird reasons that drive people – I think some corps may have felt almost a deep pleasure or satisfaction over wierwille’s “achievement” of such renewed mind spirituality – like his way was the ideal to shoot for…an example of someone who mastered PFAL…once any newbie way corps got over the shock of seeing wierwille in his natural depraved state…their moral compass may suffer in emotional numbness…other psychological symptoms may follow…like an overpowering sense of fear or anxiety as if YOU are the weird one for thinking evil of “the man of god”. try a couple of thought experiments: 1.) try imagining if Paul never said anything to the Corinthian church about the influence of the immoral church member. How would that play out in the long term? What kind of credibility would the church have? 2.) Imagine if Paul and other church leaders were not only cool with rampant immorality but had all kinds of illicit side gigs going on themselves. Would you look at the epistles any differently? Would it bother you that there was a double standard in the Christian faith? The Bible says one thing – but we all know you can do as you full well please. ~ ~ ~ ~ what’s so bad about PFAL? Well, besides the fact that wierwille uses logical fallacies and twists Scripture to champion his cause - most new students are unaware of the wicked error that ferments as they continue to review the class materials once they’ve graduated from PFAL. Your boasting [over the supposed spirituality of your church] is not good [indeed, it is vulgar and inappropriate]. Do you not know that [just] a little leaven ferments the whole batch [of dough, just as a little sin corrupts a person or an entire church]? I Corinthians 5:6 Amplified ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD Bonus features: Wiki – I Corinthians 5 Blue Letter Bible.org I Corinthians 5 Bible Study Tools: Matthew Henry on I Corinthians 5 Enduring Word Commentary: I Corinthians 5 Study Light Commentaries: I Corinthians 5 Bible Reference.com : I Corinthians 5 What does the Bible say about setting a bad example 6 warning signs of a bad pastor and spiritual abuse 8 dangerous pastors that will destroy your church emotional shock What does a traumatic experience do to your body and brain?