Somehow in all of my bible studies I do not remember ever reading this chapter. Commonly known as The Prayer of the High Priest, when I was first shown this chapter I felt as though life finally came into focus.
Verse 3 in particular: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Eccl 3:11 - He hath made everything beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
So from our perspective, there is a bottom. No matter how deeply we may search, there will be a place(s) where we see "this page cannot be displayed", so to speak, but there is no limit to what we can search. We can always search with reasonable expectation of learning SOMETHING.
Is there a bottom? As we continue to learn and grown, doesn't the well deepen? Aren't new connections and insights made?
I think the inward path has to do with listening and learning from our 'other' mind, the unconsciouse mind some say, or sub conscious. The part that is not necesarily verbal or numerical, that speaks in symbol, image, dreams.
In my mind I often have a fleeting image of time--but it is not a calendar like i see everyday on my wall. It is a type of line. I can't describe it with words.I didn't think it up, it just happens, I guess it is how that 'other'side of my mind sees time. No boxes.
One of my(non Christian) practices is using a set of cards, with symbols, not for telling the future, but to think deeply about a situation before me. The symbols help give a voice I can recognise to thwat other side of my brain.
In meditation you can run into a 'gatekeeper' a frightening image. Many people will quit there, oh, meditation is sooo awful. But the gatekeeper is a symbol. It is protecting something important, and can be passed.
I was just thinking & came to greasespot looking for you Todd - my thoughts would be good to chat with you about. Well, you're not here, but lo & behold, this thread is.
Which is more real? Our lives as we know them or God's thoughts on us?
God is the fountain of living waters.
We are living water poured out.
Before we flowed out, we were with God in his thoughts. We were the thinking of God. Though our life in this flesh ends, yet we will be in God's thoughts.
How is it that we will awaken, called forth from the grave, again to know life - not only again to know life, but to have a sense that it is really ourselves even though the soul life we have now will not be the life we have then. How can this be? Only because God will remember us, and, again, our lives will flow forth from Him, the fountain of living waters.
So I say that our sense of ourselves, no matter how deep, is not as real as God's thoughts.
To have a sense of the living water that we are is to, or rather may be to, sense the years of desire and the surety of eternity that resides in the heart of God concerning us and everything else that he thinks about.
We were made flesh, but begotten (not made) of the Father.
"Galut means being imprisoned within a fragmented perception of reality, on all levels: fragmentation in time, space, self and community. It affects how we view ourselves, others, and all the events in our lives. It is our inability to see the underlying unity in all of reality."
"Geulah, redemption, on the other hand, is seeing the wholeness, the unity and the underlying G-dliness within creation. It is the perception of the connecting thread and the unifying force in everything--people, places, events"
"That is why the Hebrew word for exile, golah differs only in one letter from its counterpart, geulah, redemption. Golah is missing the aleph (one) contained in geulah. It is lacking the perception of Oneness, the unity, the wholeness, the Divine underlying purpose of its creation."
"Every mitzvah that we do within galut draws down this aleph within each of us, and within the world at large. Mitzvah means connection. Every mitzvah uncovers the concealed purpose of this moment, or of this created matter, and thereby connects us all to our Creator.
Because drawing down this aleph consciousness is something that is in the powers of each and every one of us."
Are you posting without regard to the topic of the thread you're in again? Or do you think courageously holding fast to the faithful Word is an inward path?
Oh, I see - back a few posts; you're just arguing with Clay again. I should have known.
That statement/principle you just stated - is that the Word? I don't remember seeing that in the Word anywhere.
The Word says to give thanks for God's goodness. I hold that fast; it doesn't take any courage at all.
On the other hand, courage is to keep heart in the face of danger - even "unbelievers" do that.
Where in the faithful Word does it say that true courage is to hold fast the faithful Word? And if that's not in the faithful Word, then what Word are you holding fast to by saying that?
Argue with Clay & Todd every chance you get? Even if you have to make up statements & make believe they are the Word to do so? And act like you're holding fast to the faithful Word when you do so?
The Israelites know the way to the inward paths but they needed God's help to find the outward paths at times
but at times they had to fight there way to the inward paths with God's help
does this tell us when we get trap in places like the Way Ministry cult with God's help we can find the way out better but most of us just jump out blind
but thanks to God and Pax we have a place to cast away even the bad dreams of the Way Ministry our trap while Egypt was the Israelites trap
While the Israelites inward paths were to the land of milk and honey our inward paths are to the spiritual land of light and truth
True courage...And to stay firm in the face of ridicule, persecution etc...You're right Tom, I was addressing Clays comment, but as usual, you're welcome to 'butt in'. Clays comment was "true courage is to face the inward you" (Biblical) ? Your comment was "True courage is to stand firm in the face of danger" (Biblical) ?
My comment was "True courage is to hold fast the faithful Word". I never said it was a scripture.
And I also (presumed) you had read Titus 1:9 at some point.
Allan, why shouldn't Tom "butt in"? Afterall, you do it time after time after time after time. Have you noticed that basically no one here appreciates your input? That doesn't stop you from offering your insulting, non logical, non documented, lies and insults does it?
Of course what you said wasn't based on scripture. When is anything you post based on fact, much less scripture? So, once again - lacking in any true courage yourself, you must insult those who are NOT lacking in it.
In fact, that too is what makes you a bully. Bully's lack courage - they fake courage to try and intimidate others, but in reality they have none.
So once again, you will derail a thread with opff topic comments, insults and lies. So what is new. But ya know what, we will continue to have our conversations even if there are sidebars with you.
That's great stuff, Abigail - thanks. I'll take the time to look further."
Egypt, Tom. In a way, we are all still in Egypt. Enslaved to the rules and bounds of the physical world. Yet, God has freed us from Egypt, we just don't always remember that. In many ways, that is exactly the crux of what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught of the underlying unity. That was a large portion of his message. That is why he became angry with the pharasees in the Temple. That is why he spoke of the good samaritan, that is why he spoke of "he who is without sin" casting the first stone. Ultimately, that is the redemption he spoke of too.
Is that not also the message of the epistles? That whether bond or free, Jew or Christian, we are all one in Christ? Is becoming one in Christ truly just a matter of repeating Romans 10:9 and 10 like some sort of mindless formula? Or does it require more of us? Some thoughts and actions with respect to who we are and who those around us are?
Truly, that sense of oneness is THE key element that is missing. If there were truly a sense of oneness, would we kill each other off over religion, land, oil? If there were true oneness, would we ignore the hungry begger in the street? If there were true oneness, would we sit at home staring at the t.v. while others work to pay for our food?
Think about it - how different would this world be if instead of fighting each other - we saw the unity.
People who don't understand see "Mitzvah" as some sort of law or rule one must follow. Another "law" Jesus supposedly set us free from. What they don't get s that Mitzvah is what Jesus taught about. Because when we step ouside ourselves and perform a mitzvah, we truly are taking another step forward down that inward path towards recognizing who we really are. And in doing so, we also reunite another fragmented piece.
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CoolWaters
John 17
Somehow in all of my bible studies I do not remember ever reading this chapter. Commonly known as The Prayer of the High Priest, when I was first shown this chapter I felt as though life finally came into focus.
Verse 3 in particular: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
This is eternal life.
It just resonates within me like a tuning fork.
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mstar1
The question immediately reminded me of an old blues song by Blind Willie Johnson, that in its rhythms and lyrics begs the same question
Soul of a Man
Won't somebody tell me, answer if you can!
Want somebody to tell me, what is the soul of a man?
I'm going to ask the question, answer if you can
If anybody here can tell me, what is the soul of a man?
I've traveled in different countries, I've traveled foreign lands
I've found nobody to tell me, what is the soul of a man
I saw a crowd stand talking, I came up right on time
Were hearing the doctor and the lawyer, say a man ain't nothing but his mind
I read the bible often, I tries to read it right
As far as I can understand, a man is more than his mind
When Christ stood in the temple, the people all stood amazed
Was showing the doctors and the lawyers, how to raise a man from the grave
Won't somebody tell me, answer if you can!
Want somebody to tell me, what is the soul of a man?
I'm going to ask the question, answer if you can
If anybody here can tell me, just what is the soul of a man?
I have no answers-its much bigger than I thought or was taught
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ChattyKathy
Food for thoughts. I've not the time now but interesting Todd.
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johniam
quote:i mean...how deep are we already?
is there even a bottom to us?
if so, what do we call this?
and if not, what do we call this?
Eccl 3:11 - He hath made everything beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
So from our perspective, there is a bottom. No matter how deeply we may search, there will be a place(s) where we see "this page cannot be displayed", so to speak, but there is no limit to what we can search. We can always search with reasonable expectation of learning SOMETHING.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd
God loves ua all
I have not found the bottom of my spirit within me
I have not found the bottom of my spirit out side of me
Nor have I have not found the top of my spirit within me
Nor have I have not found the top of my spirit out side of me
Nor have I have not found the left side of my spirit within me
Nor have I have not found the left side of my spirit out side of me
Nor have I have not found the right side of my spirit within me
Nor have I have not found the right side of my spirit out side of me
I just have no seem any of my spirit limits
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Bramble
Is there a bottom? As we continue to learn and grown, doesn't the well deepen? Aren't new connections and insights made?
I think the inward path has to do with listening and learning from our 'other' mind, the unconsciouse mind some say, or sub conscious. The part that is not necesarily verbal or numerical, that speaks in symbol, image, dreams.
In my mind I often have a fleeting image of time--but it is not a calendar like i see everyday on my wall. It is a type of line. I can't describe it with words.I didn't think it up, it just happens, I guess it is how that 'other'side of my mind sees time. No boxes.
One of my(non Christian) practices is using a set of cards, with symbols, not for telling the future, but to think deeply about a situation before me. The symbols help give a voice I can recognise to thwat other side of my brain.
In meditation you can run into a 'gatekeeper' a frightening image. Many people will quit there, oh, meditation is sooo awful. But the gatekeeper is a symbol. It is protecting something important, and can be passed.
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gc
sirguessalot, I absolutely love you nick :)
Is this question along the lines of "can we ever know ourselves" and "can we ever know God"?
gc
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sirguessalot
yes and no
permit a tad rant...every word of which is dramatically incomplete
according to ancient scriptures...one can wrestle with God and win
according to others....God was described as being known, touched, tasted, handled, and seen
but there is indeed a distinct end, which is also a new beginning
and if we ask, we will find, as the scripture says
if we stop asking, we will not find
amazing how the questions, and not the answers, are the key
and when we find that the ground of all is a clearing
and we can rest in the witness of that invisible God
and the fact there is no answer in the clearing is the great answer
and we will be free from the great search when we can rest in this
though we will also be free to keep searching for other things
now, that is freedom, imo
and a radical grace
we will find comfort in mystery, and the enigmatic nature of things
paradox and contradiction will no longer rattle us
and we can let go of our death-grip on control and perfection
and the world will cease being the frightening nasty wilderness
because right here, right now, it will spring forth life eternal
and we will realize that nothing has really changed, but ourselves..within
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dancing
Interesting how many are so brave to face what is not within.
True courage is to take an honest look within and face it head on.
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Tom
I was just thinking & came to greasespot looking for you Todd - my thoughts would be good to chat with you about. Well, you're not here, but lo & behold, this thread is.
Which is more real? Our lives as we know them or God's thoughts on us?
God is the fountain of living waters.
We are living water poured out.
Before we flowed out, we were with God in his thoughts. We were the thinking of God. Though our life in this flesh ends, yet we will be in God's thoughts.
How is it that we will awaken, called forth from the grave, again to know life - not only again to know life, but to have a sense that it is really ourselves even though the soul life we have now will not be the life we have then. How can this be? Only because God will remember us, and, again, our lives will flow forth from Him, the fountain of living waters.
So I say that our sense of ourselves, no matter how deep, is not as real as God's thoughts.
To have a sense of the living water that we are is to, or rather may be to, sense the years of desire and the surety of eternity that resides in the heart of God concerning us and everything else that he thinks about.
We were made flesh, but begotten (not made) of the Father.
We came out from what God is.
Before we came out, we were still of Him in Him.
We just hadn't come out yet.
Remember?
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sirguessalot
ha...very nice, Tom
thanks for adding your thoughts
i really like this part...
yes...i have come to think of our spiritual brokenness as more of a state of amnesia
and our life's work can be summarized as a remembering of our original nature
because, in essence...we already always are what we have always already been
...from the very beginning of time
if we truly are a stream in a fountain, we are always already spiritually soaking wet,
and our seperation from God is a deep forgetting and misunderstanding of how inseperable from the fountain that we always already are
ultimately, even the boundaries between that which is within and that which is without will vanish
...we are that wet
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Abigail
From here
"At first all existed as a single whole in a single thought. Then it fell below, shattering into tiny fragments and fragments of fragments"
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Abigail
And experpts from here
"Galut means being imprisoned within a fragmented perception of reality, on all levels: fragmentation in time, space, self and community. It affects how we view ourselves, others, and all the events in our lives. It is our inability to see the underlying unity in all of reality."
"Geulah, redemption, on the other hand, is seeing the wholeness, the unity and the underlying G-dliness within creation. It is the perception of the connecting thread and the unifying force in everything--people, places, events"
"That is why the Hebrew word for exile, golah differs only in one letter from its counterpart, geulah, redemption. Golah is missing the aleph (one) contained in geulah. It is lacking the perception of Oneness, the unity, the wholeness, the Divine underlying purpose of its creation."
"Every mitzvah that we do within galut draws down this aleph within each of us, and within the world at large. Mitzvah means connection. Every mitzvah uncovers the concealed purpose of this moment, or of this created matter, and thereby connects us all to our Creator.
Because drawing down this aleph consciousness is something that is in the powers of each and every one of us."
One day at a time. One mitzvah at a time.
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allan w.
True courage is to 'hold fast' the faithful Word.
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Tom
Are you posting without regard to the topic of the thread you're in again? Or do you think courageously holding fast to the faithful Word is an inward path?
Oh, I see - back a few posts; you're just arguing with Clay again. I should have known.
That statement/principle you just stated - is that the Word? I don't remember seeing that in the Word anywhere.
The Word says to give thanks for God's goodness. I hold that fast; it doesn't take any courage at all.
On the other hand, courage is to keep heart in the face of danger - even "unbelievers" do that.
Where in the faithful Word does it say that true courage is to hold fast the faithful Word? And if that's not in the faithful Word, then what Word are you holding fast to by saying that?
Argue with Clay & Todd every chance you get? Even if you have to make up statements & make believe they are the Word to do so? And act like you're holding fast to the faithful Word when you do so?
Way to keep heart in the face of danger.
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God loves us all my dear friend
just a little fun here
The Israelites know the way to the inward paths but they needed God's help to find the outward paths at times
but at times they had to fight there way to the inward paths with God's help
does this tell us when we get trap in places like the Way Ministry cult with God's help we can find the way out better but most of us just jump out blind
but thanks to God and Pax we have a place to cast away even the bad dreams of the Way Ministry our trap while Egypt was the Israelites trap
While the Israelites inward paths were to the land of milk and honey our inward paths are to the spiritual land of light and truth
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
Makes you (really) want to think, eh?
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allan w.
True courage...And to stay firm in the face of ridicule, persecution etc...You're right Tom, I was addressing Clays comment, but as usual, you're welcome to 'butt in'. Clays comment was "true courage is to face the inward you" (Biblical) ? Your comment was "True courage is to stand firm in the face of danger" (Biblical) ?
My comment was "True courage is to hold fast the faithful Word". I never said it was a scripture.
And I also (presumed) you had read Titus 1:9 at some point.
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Abigail
Allan, why shouldn't Tom "butt in"? Afterall, you do it time after time after time after time. Have you noticed that basically no one here appreciates your input? That doesn't stop you from offering your insulting, non logical, non documented, lies and insults does it?
Of course what you said wasn't based on scripture. When is anything you post based on fact, much less scripture? So, once again - lacking in any true courage yourself, you must insult those who are NOT lacking in it.
In fact, that too is what makes you a bully. Bully's lack courage - they fake courage to try and intimidate others, but in reality they have none.
So once again, you will derail a thread with opff topic comments, insults and lies. So what is new. But ya know what, we will continue to have our conversations even if there are sidebars with you.
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allan w.
[edited due to personal attacks]
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Tom
That's great stuff, Abigail - thanks. I'll take the time to look further.
It's good having you here.
Tom
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Tom
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excathedra
a really big treat for me todd and tom getting together
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Abigail
""Galut means ...
That's great stuff, Abigail - thanks. I'll take the time to look further."
Egypt, Tom. In a way, we are all still in Egypt. Enslaved to the rules and bounds of the physical world. Yet, God has freed us from Egypt, we just don't always remember that. In many ways, that is exactly the crux of what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught of the underlying unity. That was a large portion of his message. That is why he became angry with the pharasees in the Temple. That is why he spoke of the good samaritan, that is why he spoke of "he who is without sin" casting the first stone. Ultimately, that is the redemption he spoke of too.
Is that not also the message of the epistles? That whether bond or free, Jew or Christian, we are all one in Christ? Is becoming one in Christ truly just a matter of repeating Romans 10:9 and 10 like some sort of mindless formula? Or does it require more of us? Some thoughts and actions with respect to who we are and who those around us are?
Truly, that sense of oneness is THE key element that is missing. If there were truly a sense of oneness, would we kill each other off over religion, land, oil? If there were true oneness, would we ignore the hungry begger in the street? If there were true oneness, would we sit at home staring at the t.v. while others work to pay for our food?
Think about it - how different would this world be if instead of fighting each other - we saw the unity.
People who don't understand see "Mitzvah" as some sort of law or rule one must follow. Another "law" Jesus supposedly set us free from. What they don't get s that Mitzvah is what Jesus taught about. Because when we step ouside ourselves and perform a mitzvah, we truly are taking another step forward down that inward path towards recognizing who we really are. And in doing so, we also reunite another fragmented piece.
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