Brilliant, Shell. Thank you. I'm up past my bedtime or I'd say more, but I didn't want to go to bed without acknowledging your words and the heart behind them.
You have managed to put into words some of what I have also been thinking lately.
I love to see some old friends again, and for them to know that I am ok. It always bothered me to leave and not know whether anybody cared. Now, I know they did care and they know I'm alright.
The rest of it eased my mind in knowing that I am not alone in what I thought of myself. I have been able to restore my soul in many ways that I couldn't before. That's actually what my first impressions of Greasespot were when I first found it-a place to get information and a place to safely begin to heal the hurts.
Many people still have bitterness. Some have only been out a relatively short time, so I suppose that they haven't had the time to purge the bitterness from their souls. That's a lot of what I think we are seeing.
I cringe when I see people being raked over the coals (on both sides of issues) in sometimes a vicious manner. It's not who we were.
I swear I feel that people who continually berate others are forgetting that this may be exactly the reason the left the Way in the first place. You didn't like it when it was done to you, or when you saw it done to others? Why is it okay to do it here?
I know that if what we have been seeing the last few months is what I would have first seen, I probably would not have stayed. We (IMHO) should be dealing in facts, not wild speculation. It does not lend credibility to the site, or the hard work many have put into it.
"We were once a family within a family that was presented to us as The Way International. We shared on some level, we loved together, we laughed and cried and raised babies and lived actual lives."
Ah, but were we really? Or did we just pretend to be. I can tell you only my experience. In the beginning I did have friends who I loved like family. Those people I do still love, though some of us no longer speak to each other for reasons I cannot even begin to understand. Those people I would take care to not hurt, even when we disagree.
But by the end of my TWI days, there wsa no family within a family. There was, by and large, simply a group of people I had to get along with, whether I liked them or not. Some I did, some I did not. But certainly there was a vast difference in that they were not people I could share my heart with, for to expose yourself to one of them was to risk exposing yourself to all. It left you wide open to public reproof and humiliation as we were expected to "tattle" on one another. Still, I would use some amount of care with those people, because they are still just that - people. BUT, if I felt one was attacking me or mine, I would do what is also human nature and defend myself, protect my boundaries.
"How is it that we were all in the same place, hearing the same words, playing the same game with the same pieces got to this place?"
Ah, but is that true? When I read what people share of their experiences in TWI, I conclude that we were not all in the same place and hearing the same words. And that does account for a good degree of the fighting around the cafe - or rather, the unwillingness to accept that we DID have different experiences is the cause of it. Those who walked away relatively unscathed and those who walked away bruised or broken seem to have a difficult time accepting the experiences of the opposite camp.
"The place where we've forgotten what our original goal was when we left. What was your goal, did you have one, do you remember it?"
I had few goals when I initialy left, beyond basic survival and healing. Those goals I have met. I have formed many other goals since then, but few if any of them are related to TWI.
"Do you remember what you felt if you considered what you'd say or do when you might run into old friends? That's perhaps changed over time as you realized you would/could find old friends.
Did you expect that you'd do such battle with them or others that walked the same road as you?"
I don't remember giving much thought to what it would be like to run into other wayfers, in or out. I do know I would do as always and hold my head high, not let them kick me again. As for those who were truly friends, with them there would be no need to "hold my head high" because the love we had would still be there and that I have found to be true.
I don't do battle with old friends, even those who have chosen a different path than I. We love each other enough to give each other the room we need to be who we are.
"I want to understand what the anger really is.
Is it rage at a man that performed such life altering behaviors as to never be healable?
Is it rage at a man that has fallen from his position of power and control and now lives a life totally differant? "
I think the rage is on so many different levels and for so may different reasons - each person has their own story, and the stories are numerous.
"I want to remember the joy we felt that day in april not so many years ago when the first domino of his fall was touched to begin a process the likes of which we may never see again"
Again, this difference in experiences. I felt no joy. Mostly what I felt was fear, and that fear remained for quite a long time.
I think the ugliness comes as part of the healing process. After so many years of not having a voice, it takes a lot of time to find one again. That process often includes doing it straight from the gut - regardless of how harsh it is, until we re-learn how to do it more gently. And I would add, I don't think straight from the gut is always a bad thing. We are learning two things at the very least 1) how to speak up and voice our opinions and 2) how to hold our boundaries when others would trample them.
As for what those who are still in see when they come here? I can't say, beyond saying that each person who comes here probably sees something a little different. I saw and continue to see people who love each other, people who dislike each other, people who agree and who are also allowed to disagree.
Greasespot may not be the right fit for everyone. It can be a rough place at times, no doubt. There are certainly those who cannot handle that roughness or are not yet ready to handle that roughness. But the cool thing is, there are other ex-way websites that would be a good fit for those people too. And so, I am left feeling that the "need is covered" one way or another.
That day in April...at first all we heard was that LCM had stepped down--and we were happy. Maybe we even thought that a way would be paved to go back, become not M&A...everything the way it should be.
Later in the day we heard more, about the adultery. At that time we thought it was the one time affair.
My husband was furious. Really. We left TWI because we were sick of being dogged about piddly little crap. In his thinking, adultery was far worse than the piddly stuff that our lives were made miserable about.
He went out to trim some bushes and had a heart attack. Yep, that's a day I won't forget too soon. I even remember what we had for dinner--marinated round steak, steamed veggies and rice.
As far as all the anger--Anger was the magic that got things done in TWI. Tantrums got results, if you were in a leadership situation. Being spiritually angry was a godly habit, it meant you were super spirtual and could see things others couldn't. Control of others through anger, threats and name calling--yep, that's the TWI I knew pretty well. Still see it here. I'll bet alot of lurkers in TWI are familiar with it.
I also think there are a few posters that have the hearts of trolls--they stalk other posters, derail threads, try to get the focus on themselves because they have the truth and all...they are ugly people. It is probably fun for them to get others upset!
I have come to a place in my life where I need to understand how each person...myself included...became the keepers of twi's insanity. I need to dig into and really look at the part each one of us played in making sure the box was locked, making sure that it was all kept in the household, making sure that twi be not blamed.
IMO, so much of the anger that I express and see on the threads has a whole lot to do with wanting to rage against the machine that gave twi its power over people's lives.
It's just not acceptable conversation at this point in time.
This is all just my opinion and only from my perspective.
We were once a family within a family that was presented to us as The Way International. We shared on some level, we loved together, we laughed and cried and raised babies and lived actual lives.
This reminds me of a time LONG ago... very long ago. This peaceful living was already going away in the early 90's. Somewhere, someone thought it would be 'best' for everyone to be 'the same', the Word was being mishandled, and everyone was to suffer.
How is it that we were all in the same place, hearing the same words, playing the same game with the same pieces got to this place?
The place where we fight about a man who made the choices to start a ministry and allowed it and himself to get so dirty.
I'm seeing different situations due to differing experiences... there were different levels of good and evil in TWI. My WOW brother (corps) was an a*s. He was a heavy drinker, slept with the new girls we brought to twig, and then had the nerve to yell at us.. YELL... at odd hours of the night... would wake us up and tell us that God put something on his heart, and would YELL about the stupidest things... not everyone experienced him.
The place where we've forgotten what our original goal was when we left. What was your goal, did you have one, do you remember it?
When I first came here, I just looked... at facts mostly... didn't post much, not really having much to say. I had no goal outside of stopping the abuse.. I was hurt, and most of my close friends were still in... since I had NO friends when it came to the Word. I was a very good cult member... and leaving was difficult, so much that I had gone back at one point, and subjected myself & family to the scrutinizing eyes of young, stupid corps girls, who were also trying to be very good cult members...
Did you expect that you'd do such battle with them or others that walked the same road as you?
I want to understand what the anger really is.
Can't say I feel like being involved in any battles... my days of being right at the sake of others is over. There are some places here I'll pass over... Still enjoy looking at the facts, it is a meter of how far I've come, since my mind had agreed with that stupidity at one time.
Is it rage at a man that performed such life altering behaviors as to never be healable?
Frankly, it's embarrassing. I put MY WHOLE LIFE at one time into that place... a few men and women ruined it, and for awhile they fooled me... that would make me a fool...? Didn't like that!... but I am healing~
I want to remember the joy we felt that day in April not so many years ago when the first domino of his fall was touched to begin a process the likes of which we may never see again.
This I don't understand... I never felt any joy... it was all hurtful for me... just a waste ... the people at the top had too much say and the group as a whole didn't really matter... it was all sad~
What is The Greasespot Cafe here for? I used to know, but I don't see it anymore. What was the original idea? To provide a place to rest and know peace to those that had been so broken and left for death?
I'm hoping it's hear for any to see the facts, chat a bit, find answers, and know recovery is different for everyone.
I can only speak for myself when I say that Waydale and Greasespot, although didn't save my life, they did afford me to be quiet and decide 'what now' and take the time to really be sure and then it's been supportive as I take action.
There is support here, and some topics are quieter than others... for me, if it seemed to noisy, or a few people were picking on each other, I would just stay away from those areas...
I no longer know why I'm here and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Awww ((((((((((Shell))))))))))
We excuse ourselves if we bump a stranger in the grocery, we apologize if we offend our neighbor.
I'm wondering why we treat each other with such ugliness in here, considering how we all (most of us) came from the same place, have so many things in common and really need and deserve each others support and care.
Could it be, possibly, that the ones who like to argue & fight are mostly men? I've found some are not as tender as women, and can be pretty crude at times... not too quick to think outside of themselves... and watch, because some, when they get real comfortable, will fart & burp and just laugh... and we have to sit & smell it... :blink: but then there are some wonderful, tender hearted men with good manners here too...
Not being face to face and speaking is for the most part an easy way for some to say things they'd NEVER say otherwise. Perhaps we should be reminded of that... a couple people I'd like to visit in here... say 'what's up with that dude' ;)
I know how very weary the journey makes us sometimes. Wouldn't it be nice to have a place to come home to, to rest, to recharge, a place to put our oars for awhile.
Shell you always have something nice to say in Chat... you seem warm, caring & understanding, and I'm very glad we've 'met'... looking forward to seeing you in person some day :)
Thanks ladies, this is what I'm talking about; talking about it!
I'm not against discussing things and arguing about them, hashing and re-hashing. (what a wierd word)
I don't believe in the 'can't we all just get along', either and I sure wouldn't hang around if that were the case.
The april day I speak of is when the lawsuit was announced; indicating that something was finally going to happen to DO something.
I get that we all have differant lens with which we see TWI and GS. How boring it'd be otherwise. We each have our own bias's and life things that effect how we approach and present.
What I don't get is the ugliness toward each other when it happens. Some things are really painful and do indeed need to be addressed, regardless of how painful.
If you offend me and I then offend you because you offended me and then you come back and offend me cuz I offended your for offending me.............. :blink: That's what I'm talking about.
It's the one upmanship that speaks poorly to me. The grandiosity of 'well I'm right cuz I said so and you need to shut up and agree that I'm right and I'm going to keep saying so no matter what it costs'.
I guess I'm naive to think that adult people can discuss things with some form while using their manners. That's not real life and it won't happen, I know that.
Shell, I hear you loud and clear. I get sick of the contentiousness too, and the lack of respect for other's experiences and points of view. So I just back off and disappear into my real life for awhile. :B)
Sometimes I wonder if the insistance that people agree with our individual povs, isn't just a "way hangover." You know, no conflicting opinions allowed, ever, for any reason. :ph34r:
I think some of us are still angry with ourselves for having gotten involved in the first place, or, for not seeing what was evident and acting on it. Once I was out, and had time to think for myself I found lots of things that ordinarily would have tipped me off to a scam. I didn't want to believe it because I was so brainwashed at the time.
All I wanted to do was know God, love Him, and serve Him in my own life. I was duped into thinking that their way was the only way to do that. I was very ashamed of myself for that.....I wonder who else might be acting out of their own shame or sense of guilt.
This is a great thread....so much to ponder. Lots of growth can come from that.
The heart that resides within us that allows for us to love and be loved and think kindly is the heart I'm interested in this morning. When you reach to the heart of someone why is it that you take the risk and put out your own heart of giving? Why is it you open up your own heart to receive when another offers theirs?
Shell, some of us open our hearts too easily and too quickly. Why? We want to be loved. We don’t like to play games. We love too easily and too quickly and part of loving is opening your heart to somone. Trusting them to be as careful with yours as you are with theirs.
We were once a family within a family that was presented to us as The Way International. We shared on some level, we loved together, we laughed and cried and raised babies and lived actual lives.
I never experienced this part of TWI, so I can’t speak to it.
How is it that we were all in the same place, hearing the same words, playing the same game with the same pieces got to this place?
Our experiences are all so varied and perceptions of those same words so different, that I’m not sure “same” is all that accurate and that’s why we have what we have here.
The place where we fight about a man who made the choices to start a ministry and allowed it and himself to get so dirty.
There’s deep, very deeply rooted hurt in many lives because of that man and to see folks praise him is like salt in the wounds.
The place where we've forgotten what our original goal was when we left. What was your goal, did you have one, do you remember it?
My goal was to look at the lawsuit since we weren’t given a copy of it. I was NOT expecting to find what I did. Once I found it – my goal was to get out but to do it with my marriage still in place. I saw where I could get help with that, so I stayed.
The longer I stayed the more mad I got at TWI, so I had a second goal of exposing all the things they didn’t want exposed. I wanted to share as much about what was going on as I could.
I still have the second goal, but since I’ve accomplished (somewhat) the first goal, I no longer have direct access to what TWI is doing and telling their folks.
Do you remember what you felt if you considered what you'd say or do when you might run into old friends? That's perhaps changed over time as you realized you would/could find old friends.
Again, I never had any real friends in TWI, so I can’t speak to that.
I want to understand what the anger really is.
Is it rage at a man that performed such life altering behaviors as to never be healable?
Is it rage at a man that has fallen from his position of power and control and now lives a life totally differant?
Yes and yes and astonishment that there are folks who condone, support and minimalize the actions of those men.
I want to remember the joy we felt that day in april not so many years ago when the first domino of his fall was touched to begin a process the likes of which we may never see again.
Different experience – different perception – mine is very different from what you describe here. :)
What is The Greasespot Cafe here for? I used to know, but I don't see it anymore. What was the original idea? To provide a place to rest and know peace to those that had been so broken and left for death?
Wasn't it also to be a place where those still entrapped within the walls of our old stomping grounds could find the courage to come and find strength to make decisions?
Could it have ever been a place for us to stop and think, reflecting quietly on thankfulness of freedom?
I'm wondering why we treat each other with such ugliness in here, considering how we all (most of us) came from the same place, have so many things in common and really need and deserve each others support and care.
I think Gspot is different things for different people. WayDale and Gspot have both had times where the posts are flying – sometimes it’s all fun and games – sometimes it’s very heated discussions. We’re all passionate about our experiences and about our “feelings” and some go extremely overboard now that they are at a place outside TWI where they can really share those things.
Gspot is my café – it’s where I can come and put my feet up, have a cuppa java and chew the fat in the “General” forum where it’s usually pretty tame and non-TWI related discussions.
I can go to the “Just Plain Silly” forum where I laugh out loud in my cube farm and feel better because I just needed a laugh.
I can muse out loud in the “Doctrinal” dungeon and know that if a couple of posters don’t show up, I’ll be treated respectfully and patiently by those who can give me answers and point me in the right direction.
I can tread into the “About The Way” forum and expose something I’ve learned – learn from others and vent about my experience…..my feelings and thoughts on things TWI-related.
And I can go to the chat room where we gab, get to know each other on a much more personal basis and share our lives with one another.
SafariVista said it best, I think…..some folks feel free to type stuff they would never in a million years say to someone’s face. Those guys don’t participate in any other parts of Gspot – they don’t see the names on here as real people and they don’t care – and they don’t care to even try. They are here for one reason only, imo, and that’s to stir sh1t up and to attack and belittle people. Kick ‘em when they’re down kind of wimps. I try to ignore them, but sometimes it gets to be a bit too much …. I remember an e-mail you sent to me on one of those occasions. ….
It’s because you and I are like family – we respect each other – we care for each other’s feelings and we may get into heated discussions – almost all of us get into heated discussions at times, but the people who have been on here a long time and who see us as family generally always work it out and we end up in one big group hug. Some we rub the wrong way and we just tend to stay out of each other’s way. We’ve agreed to disagree – so to speak. This place, these folks, are like family to me – I have a vested interest in those who fit into this “group” so to speak and that’s why I get involved in some of the dog piles on the men in the “bully group”.
I also know that the integrity of my words and my consistency on the boards has given lurkers the confidence in me that they need so that they can reach out and ask me to help them privately. They may be afraid to post or afraid they can’t take the heated discussions or just not comfortable with the internet …. Oh, a myriad of reasons…. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is – lurkers can tell who’s genuine and who’s a bully pretty quickly; I think.
This is one of the best threads of it's kind I've seen in a long time.
I get sick of the squabbles, petty comments, and lack of respect I see on the board from time to time. But at the same time I remember what it was like to not have the freedom to disagree, or make any controversal comment at all.
Like Linda Z., I have to be somewhere soon, but want you to know that I appreciate what you're saying here and think MANY could benefit from it, if they chose to read it and consider it.
Been thinking about my anger, too...why do I jump in when I know it's often just another effort in futility...when I know that it's another thing about which I have to look within and figure out, but I write away anyway and then hit 'add reply'...anyway.
"Because I can," is the only thing I can come up with...ya know?
I can be angry...finally. I can talk about it...finally. I can get feedback...finally. I can choose...finally.
Me and Belle disagreed for the first time either yesterday or the day before. It scared me! A few days ago ChattyCathy and I had some stuff we had to clarify and figure out. It scared me! I adore these women...and I was disagreeing with them...and I felt that old stuff come up...and it all freaked me out...that maybe these women would never talk to me again...maybe they'd start terrible rumors about me...maybe this was going to be the day I'd be locked out of GSC forever and never have a chance to figure things out and get it all back to good again.
It was a total ptsd thingy for me.
But none of that stuff happened...we worked through it...and I actually feel as though we have better relationships.
Then there's exC...good ol' exC...who says what she thinks and lets others say what they think and doesn't hold a grudge or anything...and HOLY MOLY! have I ever needed exC since forever!!!! :D :D
And Shell...you just let me say whatever I need to say. You let me rant and rave. Then, when you're pretty sure you're not going to catch a grenade, you ask me, "What's that all about?" And I can tell you...and you usually laugh. What a relief!!!!!
Mo and me...we had some stuff. Stuff we had to talk about. Stuff we lived through together but never talked about...until GSC. We were 'enemies' once upon a time...but not really...that was twi's hope and 'accomplishment'...until we talked about it all...and found a place of deep, abiding friendship that has transcended the evil perpetrated in both our lives...against our children...against us. What a relief for me to know that Mo and her children were even alive! And to be kept abreast of even the tiniest hurdle overcome. Sigh.
All of us GSC women folk and our children...what awesome women and children we be!!!!!!!! I value each and every one of us and hold us all in a place in my heart where I hope to keep us safe with prayer, love, and a great big wall that nobody had better cross with any evil intention!!!!!! Oh!!! Wanna get my anger showing real quick? Mess with us women and our children!!!!!
The men here, though...that took me a long, long time to figure out. But you women folk helped me even in this. Now I see men as possible friends and not monsters to fear and hate and either hide from or attack vehemently. That's something that I needed to heal from that was put into my life long before twi...but twi made even worse. But here I get to heal...finally.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the arguing and contentions and stuff don't bother me so much...because it's still dialogue...it's still being real with one another...it's still a part of being human that twi denied us. It might scare me, but I'm learning that the time of fearing is over. YAY!!!!
I guess I'm naive to think that adult people can discuss things with some form while using their manners. That's not real life and it won't happen, I know that.
Shell I don't think you're naive. Adult people can discuss things and use manners while doing it... but without seeing people face to face, it's very easy to say things that wouldn't normally be communicated, while sitting at a computer... same with a telephone.
I don't know anyone personally, myself included, that would feel comfortable participating in the Jerry Springer Show... now THAT is not normal ;)
That day in April... we were still in, and knew basically nothing... like the beginning of war...
Hope everyone gets a chance to read your post here
I don't think I have any anger towards WayWorld and all it's minions anymore. I talked all that out years ago on WayDale and with former Wayfers.
Today, I find the organization and all the lackies associated with it to be simply a band of pathetically deluded dips$%ts. Maybe I should regard them with a tad more respect, seeing that - in a larger view - we're all imperfect souls that share a common fate. But I don't. Sorry.
Likewise with the folks that frequent this site and adamantly hold to obviously specious logic regarding VPW and his dogma. I have a vastly diminished view of them because of it. Just as I do of those that want to believe in U.F.O.s, or the healing waters of Lourdes, or the efficaciousness of crystal therapy or therapeutic touch. I can still like the folks, still have pleasant conversation with them and all, but I have serious reservations about their ability to think clearly. And sometimes I take guilty pleasure in pointing that out. Maybe I shouldn't?
I don't know... I come here because at some point you all were a part of TWI... there's a sort of kinship there in that we all shared similar experiences albeit at different times... I don't feel like I have any real 'anger' about TWI or it's different leaders, I have opinions though and some I feel more strongly about than others... others are free to have theirs as well, I may not agree with them and I may or may not tell them that I agree or disagree... most of the time I try to do it in a non-threatening way... but sometimes it just comes across that way...
I think I see the same personalities here that I'd see anywhere in 'real life' so I don't get too hung up on some of the personality traits that I don't really care too much for... like in 'real life' I pretty much ignore them, sometimes I can't resist though and poke them with a stick... sometimes as punishment, sometimes just to see what they'll do. But then I'm guilty of doing that in 'real life' as well...
To answer the "why are we all here? have we lost sight of it?" question (or at least I think it was a question) I don't remember coming here for any other reason than what I've mentioned earlier: because I have something in common with the folks here in that we were all in TWI at one point in time... and I found (and find) that unique because you could never explain TWI to someone who hadn't been involved and I respect that part of it...
I don't think I came here for any sort of 'healing experience', at least not consciously, because I'd already been out for 20 years when I found GSC... but I have found 'healing' in areas that I wasn't aware of... just kind of happens, little light bulbs go on every now and then...
With all of the personalities here there's going to be times when emotions are all over the place... sometimes skewed to anger, sometimes skewed to happiness, sometimes skewed to oblivious... folks are folks... here on the internet as they are in 'real life'...
For me GSC is a virtual community I can come to and hang out with whom I choose... like anywhere else, there's places I know to avoid because (to me) "they're the bad part of town" or "they're the bullies" but that's no different than anything in life... I also think TWI "innies" can come here and find out a wealth of information exposing TWI's (seldom seen to them) dark side... regardless of whether or not they have to wade through our sniping and arguing...
Alternate points of view from alternate realities. And all of it, all of it, helps me to root out lingering "waybrain". Stuff that I don't even remember learning comes out of the discussions. I see it, remember that I used to fervently believe some of this crap, and can think now, "WTF was that all about?"
Yes, I would prefer the discussions be thoughtful, insightful and considerate of each person's human dignity, regardless of their belief system. I would much rather have positions and rebuttals argued than people slammed. But I don't get everything I want.
And, after the way, I can be content with that.
And I realize this is also just a discussion forum. If it gets too deep or intense, I can log off, shut down the computer, get up, clean the bathrooms, take a walk, go to the library, read the newest Christopher Moore novel, rent a movie I didn't see at the theater, sing, go see a play or concert or opera, think about not going to work tomorrow (yeah right)...
Sometimes you need to take a break, gather yourself, and do something else to maintain your sanity.
And I realize this is also just a discussion forum. If it gets too deep or intense, I can log off, shut down the computer, get up, clean the bathrooms, take a walk, go to the library, read the newest Christopher Moore novel, rent a movie I didn't see at the theater, sing, go see a play or concert or opera, think about not going to work tomorrow (yeah right)...
Please come by next time you need that break... no need to call in advance, if'n we're not home there's a key under the mat... you can borrow a DVD too if you want...
The men here, though...that took me a long, long time to figure out. But you women folk helped me even in this. Now I see men as possible friends and not monsters to fear and hate and either hide from or attack vehemently.
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Brilliant, Shell. Thank you. I'm up past my bedtime or I'd say more, but I didn't want to go to bed without acknowledging your words and the heart behind them.
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topoftheworld
Thank you, Shell.
You have managed to put into words some of what I have also been thinking lately.
I love to see some old friends again, and for them to know that I am ok. It always bothered me to leave and not know whether anybody cared. Now, I know they did care and they know I'm alright.
The rest of it eased my mind in knowing that I am not alone in what I thought of myself. I have been able to restore my soul in many ways that I couldn't before. That's actually what my first impressions of Greasespot were when I first found it-a place to get information and a place to safely begin to heal the hurts.
Many people still have bitterness. Some have only been out a relatively short time, so I suppose that they haven't had the time to purge the bitterness from their souls. That's a lot of what I think we are seeing.
I cringe when I see people being raked over the coals (on both sides of issues) in sometimes a vicious manner. It's not who we were.
I swear I feel that people who continually berate others are forgetting that this may be exactly the reason the left the Way in the first place. You didn't like it when it was done to you, or when you saw it done to others? Why is it okay to do it here?
I know that if what we have been seeing the last few months is what I would have first seen, I probably would not have stayed. We (IMHO) should be dealing in facts, not wild speculation. It does not lend credibility to the site, or the hard work many have put into it.
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Abigail
"We were once a family within a family that was presented to us as The Way International. We shared on some level, we loved together, we laughed and cried and raised babies and lived actual lives."
Ah, but were we really? Or did we just pretend to be. I can tell you only my experience. In the beginning I did have friends who I loved like family. Those people I do still love, though some of us no longer speak to each other for reasons I cannot even begin to understand. Those people I would take care to not hurt, even when we disagree.
But by the end of my TWI days, there wsa no family within a family. There was, by and large, simply a group of people I had to get along with, whether I liked them or not. Some I did, some I did not. But certainly there was a vast difference in that they were not people I could share my heart with, for to expose yourself to one of them was to risk exposing yourself to all. It left you wide open to public reproof and humiliation as we were expected to "tattle" on one another. Still, I would use some amount of care with those people, because they are still just that - people. BUT, if I felt one was attacking me or mine, I would do what is also human nature and defend myself, protect my boundaries.
"How is it that we were all in the same place, hearing the same words, playing the same game with the same pieces got to this place?"
Ah, but is that true? When I read what people share of their experiences in TWI, I conclude that we were not all in the same place and hearing the same words. And that does account for a good degree of the fighting around the cafe - or rather, the unwillingness to accept that we DID have different experiences is the cause of it. Those who walked away relatively unscathed and those who walked away bruised or broken seem to have a difficult time accepting the experiences of the opposite camp.
"The place where we've forgotten what our original goal was when we left. What was your goal, did you have one, do you remember it?"
I had few goals when I initialy left, beyond basic survival and healing. Those goals I have met. I have formed many other goals since then, but few if any of them are related to TWI.
"Do you remember what you felt if you considered what you'd say or do when you might run into old friends? That's perhaps changed over time as you realized you would/could find old friends.
Did you expect that you'd do such battle with them or others that walked the same road as you?"
I don't remember giving much thought to what it would be like to run into other wayfers, in or out. I do know I would do as always and hold my head high, not let them kick me again. As for those who were truly friends, with them there would be no need to "hold my head high" because the love we had would still be there and that I have found to be true.
I don't do battle with old friends, even those who have chosen a different path than I. We love each other enough to give each other the room we need to be who we are.
"I want to understand what the anger really is.
Is it rage at a man that performed such life altering behaviors as to never be healable?
Is it rage at a man that has fallen from his position of power and control and now lives a life totally differant? "
I think the rage is on so many different levels and for so may different reasons - each person has their own story, and the stories are numerous.
"I want to remember the joy we felt that day in april not so many years ago when the first domino of his fall was touched to begin a process the likes of which we may never see again"
Again, this difference in experiences. I felt no joy. Mostly what I felt was fear, and that fear remained for quite a long time.
I think the ugliness comes as part of the healing process. After so many years of not having a voice, it takes a lot of time to find one again. That process often includes doing it straight from the gut - regardless of how harsh it is, until we re-learn how to do it more gently. And I would add, I don't think straight from the gut is always a bad thing. We are learning two things at the very least 1) how to speak up and voice our opinions and 2) how to hold our boundaries when others would trample them.
As for what those who are still in see when they come here? I can't say, beyond saying that each person who comes here probably sees something a little different. I saw and continue to see people who love each other, people who dislike each other, people who agree and who are also allowed to disagree.
Greasespot may not be the right fit for everyone. It can be a rough place at times, no doubt. There are certainly those who cannot handle that roughness or are not yet ready to handle that roughness. But the cool thing is, there are other ex-way websites that would be a good fit for those people too. And so, I am left feeling that the "need is covered" one way or another.
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Bramble
That day in April...at first all we heard was that LCM had stepped down--and we were happy. Maybe we even thought that a way would be paved to go back, become not M&A...everything the way it should be.
Later in the day we heard more, about the adultery. At that time we thought it was the one time affair.
My husband was furious. Really. We left TWI because we were sick of being dogged about piddly little crap. In his thinking, adultery was far worse than the piddly stuff that our lives were made miserable about.
He went out to trim some bushes and had a heart attack. Yep, that's a day I won't forget too soon. I even remember what we had for dinner--marinated round steak, steamed veggies and rice.
As far as all the anger--Anger was the magic that got things done in TWI. Tantrums got results, if you were in a leadership situation. Being spiritually angry was a godly habit, it meant you were super spirtual and could see things others couldn't. Control of others through anger, threats and name calling--yep, that's the TWI I knew pretty well. Still see it here. I'll bet alot of lurkers in TWI are familiar with it.
I also think there are a few posters that have the hearts of trolls--they stalk other posters, derail threads, try to get the focus on themselves because they have the truth and all...they are ugly people. It is probably fun for them to get others upset!
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CoolWaters
Shell,
I have come to a place in my life where I need to understand how each person...myself included...became the keepers of twi's insanity. I need to dig into and really look at the part each one of us played in making sure the box was locked, making sure that it was all kept in the household, making sure that twi be not blamed.
IMO, so much of the anger that I express and see on the threads has a whole lot to do with wanting to rage against the machine that gave twi its power over people's lives.
It's just not acceptable conversation at this point in time.
This is all just my opinion and only from my perspective.
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SafariVista
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Shellon
Thanks ladies, this is what I'm talking about; talking about it!
I'm not against discussing things and arguing about them, hashing and re-hashing. (what a wierd word)
I don't believe in the 'can't we all just get along', either and I sure wouldn't hang around if that were the case.
The april day I speak of is when the lawsuit was announced; indicating that something was finally going to happen to DO something.
I get that we all have differant lens with which we see TWI and GS. How boring it'd be otherwise. We each have our own bias's and life things that effect how we approach and present.
What I don't get is the ugliness toward each other when it happens. Some things are really painful and do indeed need to be addressed, regardless of how painful.
If you offend me and I then offend you because you offended me and then you come back and offend me cuz I offended your for offending me.............. :blink: That's what I'm talking about.
It's the one upmanship that speaks poorly to me. The grandiosity of 'well I'm right cuz I said so and you need to shut up and agree that I'm right and I'm going to keep saying so no matter what it costs'.
I guess I'm naive to think that adult people can discuss things with some form while using their manners. That's not real life and it won't happen, I know that.
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ex10
Shell, I hear you loud and clear. I get sick of the contentiousness too, and the lack of respect for other's experiences and points of view. So I just back off and disappear into my real life for awhile. :B)
Sometimes I wonder if the insistance that people agree with our individual povs, isn't just a "way hangover." You know, no conflicting opinions allowed, ever, for any reason. :ph34r:
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krys
I think some of us are still angry with ourselves for having gotten involved in the first place, or, for not seeing what was evident and acting on it. Once I was out, and had time to think for myself I found lots of things that ordinarily would have tipped me off to a scam. I didn't want to believe it because I was so brainwashed at the time.
All I wanted to do was know God, love Him, and serve Him in my own life. I was duped into thinking that their way was the only way to do that. I was very ashamed of myself for that.....I wonder who else might be acting out of their own shame or sense of guilt.
This is a great thread....so much to ponder. Lots of growth can come from that.
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Belle
You asked...
Shell, some of us open our hearts too easily and too quickly. Why? We want to be loved. We don’t like to play games. We love too easily and too quickly and part of loving is opening your heart to somone. Trusting them to be as careful with yours as you are with theirs.I never experienced this part of TWI, so I can’t speak to it.
Our experiences are all so varied and perceptions of those same words so different, that I’m not sure “same” is all that accurate and that’s why we have what we have here.There’s deep, very deeply rooted hurt in many lives because of that man and to see folks praise him is like salt in the wounds.
My goal was to look at the lawsuit since we weren’t given a copy of it. I was NOT expecting to find what I did. Once I found it – my goal was to get out but to do it with my marriage still in place. I saw where I could get help with that, so I stayed.The longer I stayed the more mad I got at TWI, so I had a second goal of exposing all the things they didn’t want exposed. I wanted to share as much about what was going on as I could.
I still have the second goal, but since I’ve accomplished (somewhat) the first goal, I no longer have direct access to what TWI is doing and telling their folks.
Again, I never had any real friends in TWI, so I can’t speak to that.
Yes and yes and astonishment that there are folks who condone, support and minimalize the actions of those men.Different experience – different perception – mine is very different from what you describe here. :)
I think Gspot is different things for different people. WayDale and Gspot have both had times where the posts are flying – sometimes it’s all fun and games – sometimes it’s very heated discussions. We’re all passionate about our experiences and about our “feelings” and some go extremely overboard now that they are at a place outside TWI where they can really share those things.
Gspot is my café – it’s where I can come and put my feet up, have a cuppa java and chew the fat in the “General” forum where it’s usually pretty tame and non-TWI related discussions.
I can go to the “Just Plain Silly” forum where I laugh out loud in my cube farm and feel better because I just needed a laugh.
I can muse out loud in the “Doctrinal” dungeon and know that if a couple of posters don’t show up, I’ll be treated respectfully and patiently by those who can give me answers and point me in the right direction.
I can tread into the “About The Way” forum and expose something I’ve learned – learn from others and vent about my experience…..my feelings and thoughts on things TWI-related.
And I can go to the chat room where we gab, get to know each other on a much more personal basis and share our lives with one another.
SafariVista said it best, I think…..some folks feel free to type stuff they would never in a million years say to someone’s face. Those guys don’t participate in any other parts of Gspot – they don’t see the names on here as real people and they don’t care – and they don’t care to even try. They are here for one reason only, imo, and that’s to stir sh1t up and to attack and belittle people. Kick ‘em when they’re down kind of wimps. I try to ignore them, but sometimes it gets to be a bit too much …. I remember an e-mail you sent to me on one of those occasions. ….
It’s because you and I are like family – we respect each other – we care for each other’s feelings and we may get into heated discussions – almost all of us get into heated discussions at times, but the people who have been on here a long time and who see us as family generally always work it out and we end up in one big group hug. Some we rub the wrong way and we just tend to stay out of each other’s way. We’ve agreed to disagree – so to speak. This place, these folks, are like family to me – I have a vested interest in those who fit into this “group” so to speak and that’s why I get involved in some of the dog piles on the men in the “bully group”.
I also know that the integrity of my words and my consistency on the boards has given lurkers the confidence in me that they need so that they can reach out and ask me to help them privately. They may be afraid to post or afraid they can’t take the heated discussions or just not comfortable with the internet …. Oh, a myriad of reasons…. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is – lurkers can tell who’s genuine and who’s a bully pretty quickly; I think.
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ChasUFarley
This is one of the best threads of it's kind I've seen in a long time.
I get sick of the squabbles, petty comments, and lack of respect I see on the board from time to time. But at the same time I remember what it was like to not have the freedom to disagree, or make any controversal comment at all.
Like Linda Z., I have to be somewhere soon, but want you to know that I appreciate what you're saying here and think MANY could benefit from it, if they chose to read it and consider it.
Selah.
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CoolWaters
Been thinking about this thread all day...
Been thinking about my anger, too...why do I jump in when I know it's often just another effort in futility...when I know that it's another thing about which I have to look within and figure out, but I write away anyway and then hit 'add reply'...anyway.
"Because I can," is the only thing I can come up with...ya know?
I can be angry...finally. I can talk about it...finally. I can get feedback...finally. I can choose...finally.
Me and Belle disagreed for the first time either yesterday or the day before. It scared me! A few days ago ChattyCathy and I had some stuff we had to clarify and figure out. It scared me! I adore these women...and I was disagreeing with them...and I felt that old stuff come up...and it all freaked me out...that maybe these women would never talk to me again...maybe they'd start terrible rumors about me...maybe this was going to be the day I'd be locked out of GSC forever and never have a chance to figure things out and get it all back to good again.
It was a total ptsd thingy for me.
But none of that stuff happened...we worked through it...and I actually feel as though we have better relationships.
Then there's exC...good ol' exC...who says what she thinks and lets others say what they think and doesn't hold a grudge or anything...and HOLY MOLY! have I ever needed exC since forever!!!! :D :D
And Shell...you just let me say whatever I need to say. You let me rant and rave. Then, when you're pretty sure you're not going to catch a grenade, you ask me, "What's that all about?" And I can tell you...and you usually laugh. What a relief!!!!!
Mo and me...we had some stuff. Stuff we had to talk about. Stuff we lived through together but never talked about...until GSC. We were 'enemies' once upon a time...but not really...that was twi's hope and 'accomplishment'...until we talked about it all...and found a place of deep, abiding friendship that has transcended the evil perpetrated in both our lives...against our children...against us. What a relief for me to know that Mo and her children were even alive! And to be kept abreast of even the tiniest hurdle overcome. Sigh.
All of us GSC women folk and our children...what awesome women and children we be!!!!!!!! I value each and every one of us and hold us all in a place in my heart where I hope to keep us safe with prayer, love, and a great big wall that nobody had better cross with any evil intention!!!!!!
Oh!!! Wanna get my anger showing real quick? Mess with us women and our children!!!!!
The men here, though...that took me a long, long time to figure out. But you women folk helped me even in this.
Now I see men as possible friends and not monsters to fear and hate and either hide from or attack vehemently. That's something that I needed to heal from that was put into my life long before twi...but twi made even worse. But here I get to heal...finally.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the arguing and contentions and stuff don't bother me so much...because it's still dialogue...it's still being real with one another...it's still a part of being human that twi denied us. It might scare me, but I'm learning that the time of fearing is over. YAY!!!!
I really, really needed that.
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SafariVista
Shell I don't think you're naive. Adult people can discuss things and use manners while doing it... but without seeing people face to face, it's very easy to say things that wouldn't normally be communicated, while sitting at a computer... same with a telephone.
I don't know anyone personally, myself included, that would feel comfortable participating in the Jerry Springer Show... now THAT is not normal ;)
That day in April... we were still in, and knew basically nothing... like the beginning of war...
Hope everyone gets a chance to read your post here
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George Aar
I don't think I have any anger towards WayWorld and all it's minions anymore. I talked all that out years ago on WayDale and with former Wayfers.
Today, I find the organization and all the lackies associated with it to be simply a band of pathetically deluded dips$%ts. Maybe I should regard them with a tad more respect, seeing that - in a larger view - we're all imperfect souls that share a common fate. But I don't. Sorry.
Likewise with the folks that frequent this site and adamantly hold to obviously specious logic regarding VPW and his dogma. I have a vastly diminished view of them because of it. Just as I do of those that want to believe in U.F.O.s, or the healing waters of Lourdes, or the efficaciousness of crystal therapy or therapeutic touch. I can still like the folks, still have pleasant conversation with them and all, but I have serious reservations about their ability to think clearly. And sometimes I take guilty pleasure in pointing that out. Maybe I shouldn't?
I dunno...
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oldiesman
George, the Apostle Paul said himself that if our hope in Christ is for this life only, we are pitiful.
The thing is, a person that has no hope is pitiful already.
We, all of us, have nothing without Christ, and are in deep doo doo if Christ is a myth.
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CoolWaters
OM!!
Now you go sit in the corner for awhile and think about how you're going to participate in this thread like a big boy!
I'll let you know when to come out of the corner!
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SafariVista
Very fuuuuunnnnnyyyyyy!
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Tom Strange
I don't know... I come here because at some point you all were a part of TWI... there's a sort of kinship there in that we all shared similar experiences albeit at different times... I don't feel like I have any real 'anger' about TWI or it's different leaders, I have opinions though and some I feel more strongly about than others... others are free to have theirs as well, I may not agree with them and I may or may not tell them that I agree or disagree... most of the time I try to do it in a non-threatening way... but sometimes it just comes across that way...
I think I see the same personalities here that I'd see anywhere in 'real life' so I don't get too hung up on some of the personality traits that I don't really care too much for... like in 'real life' I pretty much ignore them, sometimes I can't resist though and poke them with a stick... sometimes as punishment, sometimes just to see what they'll do. But then I'm guilty of doing that in 'real life' as well...
To answer the "why are we all here? have we lost sight of it?" question (or at least I think it was a question) I don't remember coming here for any other reason than what I've mentioned earlier: because I have something in common with the folks here in that we were all in TWI at one point in time... and I found (and find) that unique because you could never explain TWI to someone who hadn't been involved and I respect that part of it...
I don't think I came here for any sort of 'healing experience', at least not consciously, because I'd already been out for 20 years when I found GSC... but I have found 'healing' in areas that I wasn't aware of... just kind of happens, little light bulbs go on every now and then...
With all of the personalities here there's going to be times when emotions are all over the place... sometimes skewed to anger, sometimes skewed to happiness, sometimes skewed to oblivious... folks are folks... here on the internet as they are in 'real life'...
For me GSC is a virtual community I can come to and hang out with whom I choose... like anywhere else, there's places I know to avoid because (to me) "they're the bad part of town" or "they're the bullies" but that's no different than anything in life... I also think TWI "innies" can come here and find out a wealth of information exposing TWI's (seldom seen to them) dark side... regardless of whether or not they have to wade through our sniping and arguing...
IF they want to see, they'll be able to see...
Other than that I only have two questions:
1) Safari: don't your arms ever get tired?
2) Who wants snowcones?
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CoolWaters
Oh chit!! I forgotted about ya OM!
You can come out of the corner now...if you've learned your lesson.
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Kevlar2000
I love the dialogue that goes on here.
Alternate points of view from alternate realities. And all of it, all of it, helps me to root out lingering "waybrain". Stuff that I don't even remember learning comes out of the discussions. I see it, remember that I used to fervently believe some of this crap, and can think now, "WTF was that all about?"
Yes, I would prefer the discussions be thoughtful, insightful and considerate of each person's human dignity, regardless of their belief system. I would much rather have positions and rebuttals argued than people slammed. But I don't get everything I want.
And, after the way, I can be content with that.
And I realize this is also just a discussion forum. If it gets too deep or intense, I can log off, shut down the computer, get up, clean the bathrooms, take a walk, go to the library, read the newest Christopher Moore novel, rent a movie I didn't see at the theater, sing, go see a play or concert or opera, think about not going to work tomorrow (yeah right)...
Sometimes you need to take a break, gather yourself, and do something else to maintain your sanity.
You're free. Really.
Belle said "wimps". hehheh, hehheh, hehheh.
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Tom Strange
Please come by next time you need that break... no need to call in advance, if'n we're not home there's a key under the mat... you can borrow a DVD too if you want...
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dmiller
THANKS!!!
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dmiller
Did she???? Reallllly???
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SafariVista
What's really funny is that I didn't get it at first... you really had me thinking Tom
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