I have some friends in Deleware that got involved with a man named Dale Sides (I think that's his last name - sounds like it anyway). She went to him to cast out demons. Healing and Deliverence is what she said. Cigarette demons, to be specific. The exorcism apparently was a hit, she no longer smokes. But the thing is, she has to go for touch-ups. Every few months or so, the demon has to be ejected again.
I think this is so dangerous I can't even speak. God wants us healed from illness. He wants us delivered. But sickness was set in motion at the fall - It's called death. Every ache and pain leads to the first death. Sure, we can be healthy - Take vitamins, run. Take care of yourself. I think the biggest way to get healed physically is to make a concerted effort to not sin. That is our protection. Trying to live as holy a life as we can. There are 10 rules - we all know them. If we try to live by them, we might not be so sick all the time. Sin brings death - and I believe active and willful sin brings ilness.
"Sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law' - John wrote that. In one of his epistles. God wants us to have an abundant life, right? Abundant means: "above the common one" Well, what type of life is above the common one? We all are alive, right? I think it means to live again, in our new bodies. Not in this life - This life is the common one. And how do we do that? Endure till the end, then we will be saved. Just obey Him. See if you can keep the 10 commandments for 7 days. I say 7 days because of the Sabbath. Nevermind what we have been taght, just try it. It's good. Afterward you will feel wonderful. And don't lie. Don't steal anything, or bear false witness. Don't commit adultery, or think about sexual immorality. Stop saying God does things you can't prove in the Bible (take His name in vain - That's in Zechariah, by the way - the practical application of it).
If you do this, you may very well get some healing and deliverance.
they are saying its more about things in your past. It's about casting out spirits, and they say we all have them, and we need to rid ourselves of them.
it sounds more like therapy to me,
im supposed to write down anything in my past that i can remember that bothered me, then talk about them in the "healing and deliverence" session, then god will show me what spirits are operating in me (because the situations that bothered me in the past are how the spirits moved in)
they are saying its more about things in your past. It's about casting out spirits, and they say we all have them, and we need to rid ourselves of them.
it sounds more like therapy to me,
im supposed to write down anything in my past that i can remember that bothered me, then talk about them in the "healing and deliverence" session, then god will show me what spirits are operating in me (because the situations that bothered me in the past are how the spirits moved in)
what the heck am i getting myself into..
Please be careful. Acts 19 talks about exorcists - It literally means conjurures, that binds things with words. You can get healing annd deliverance on your own. Read the Word, Pray and keep the Commandments. If you love Jesus, that's how you prove it.
they are saying its more about things in your past. It's about casting out spirits, and they say we all have them, and we need to rid ourselves of them.
it sounds more like therapy to me,
im supposed to write down anything in my past that i can remember that bothered me, then talk about them in the "healing and deliverence" session, then god will show me what spirits are operating in me (because the situations that bothered me in the past are how the spirits moved in)
what the heck am i getting myself into..
I only have a few seconds and this really needs some in depth explination.
I know of two ministries that are prodegies if TWI.....though they say they are healed from that. One has been mentioned and the other is I was involved with for a few years.......and it was really a drag.
You don't need a minister to cast demons out of you.........Bottom line.
Glad you asked and I'll add more when I have more time.
thank you PatrickandSarah i look forward to hearing what you have to say!!!!!
Hi nandon,
I have experience with one of the largest cults in the US back in the 80's and then one of the smallest cults in the us, back in the 90s.
From the 80's TWI came some Corp. grads who felt that they had to be delivered from the devil in order to continue their ministries of miricles. They can talk extensivly about their deliverences, and where God has brought them as ministers for the Lord Jesus Christ.
I had som false expectations back in the 90's where I actually expected to find a good fellowship in one of these groups. I went through years of being dissatisfied as I "worked out my own salvation", so I am thankful for the time spent.
Basically they are harmless. I found that the leader was not what I had thought he was. I was looking for friendship and fellowship and found 'doctrine to be over love' rather then the other way around. My soul was hurt from the whole experience. I'm still healing. I see better now and realize what my false expectations where.
Here is the problem I had with the whole thing. I knew I had some issues, but had a hard time thinking I had these demons, that hey could so easily catagorize and cast out. My skepticism showed, and I was never really fully excepted, or so I fealt. I did not fit in with the program, so we where distanced for years, while living in the same, rather small town.
The distance actaually did me some good, because I worked out the issues of my false expectations.
If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at. They think themselves to have this deliverance ministry and by golly they will deliver you, and expect your support so they can continue to deliver more people. You will be included on the mailing list and thank you for your support.
It is hard to love and get to know people if they think that you have some demons. It is not real in that respect. They actually do attempt to do some good by delving into your past.........there is some profit to this, but the scars will take a lot more then what they are offering.
First and formost you must know that you are loved by God. "God loves you" is the first premise of Christianity. "For God so loved the world....."
The dualism involved in God against the devil is what keeps these enchantments strong. A belief is a powerful thing. If you believe that you have a devil, it will manifest in the way you expect.
God is love...this is the one power.....the rest is man made imaginations.
What man imagines in the spiritual, has powerful influence on his outlook on life.
Dualism is what fuels all of the hoopla of casting out devils.
Renewed mind is the streangth to overcome. Renewed mind to love. As God loves, so do I. That is called an affirmation. An affirmation is part of the renewed mind and has to do with your self talk. If your self talk is ,"I have a devil" you are seeing seperation rather then oneness with God. This sepperation is a lie that you believe. You have to erradicate it by changing your mind and putting a more profitable beleif in it's place. God is love, and God is me. As God loves, so do I.
they are saying its more about things in your past. It's about casting out spirits, and they say we all have them, and we need to rid ourselves of them.
it sounds more like therapy to me,
im supposed to write down anything in my past that i can remember that bothered me, then talk about them in the "healing and deliverence" session, then god will show me what spirits are operating in me (because the situations that bothered me in the past are how the spirits moved in)
what the heck am i getting myself into..
First, true healing comes from the Lord Jesus Christ. Sometimes He grants us true miracles and we manifest them instantly, and
at other times they may take some time. I also am involved with deliverance and no it is not evil. I do caution you however to know who is about to
lay hands on you. I have learned personally that though some may say they are deliverance ministers, they themselves should've checked under their
own hoods first before trying to re-wire someone else's motor.
Many times I have found that there is a lack of understanding in the differences between iniquity, transgressions and sins. God uses all three words and they mean different things. Also, many times, sickness is let in through our doors because of unforgiveness being present towards anything or anyone. Sometimes
traumas are the open doors for demons to enter. Such as a women being sexually abused...it was done to them...it wasn't their fault but the trauma of
such opens the door for various demons to manifest in their later years. Fear can be a persistent demon that then colors that person's life unless dealt
with through deliverance.
You say it sounds like therapy...in a way it is...But it goes further than therapy which only deals with the symptoms of the problem, while deliverance
if led correctly by the Lord Jesus Christ, for He is the Master, gets to the underlying root cause of the problem.
I highly recommend a tape series done by Dale Sides called "Mending Cracks in the Soul", find some time by yourself, you'll need it, a big box of
Kleenex and be prepared to be on your knees repenting before the Lord Jesus Christ.
Beloved nandon, RachelYsrael, Patrick and Sarah, and brideofjc
God loves you my dear friends
nandon - I not heard about the "healing and deliverance" class or program but what I do know is how Dale Sides pushes their devil spirit doctrines like RachelYsrael shared with you - yes be careful
RachelYsrael - I witness Dale Sides doctrine that seem to build fear in devil spirit and I believe they do not understand them I went to their Church until the focus of the metting changed to changed me because they believe I had a evil spirit - now I still love these people so I look for them and the church is closed now I just wanted to visit my friends
Patrick and Sarah - yes there are ministries that are prodegies if TWI - yes "If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at" yes most people understanding of devil spirits are "man made imaginations"
brideofjc - yes one thing effects another- I wrote to Dale Sides many times I have nothing against him personally
I wrote all you that reply here because what I about to write can be address to all
I been thinking of repling to this tread from the time I saw it was about devil spirits
In the Way Ministry we were taught that light cast out darkness but today I know that is not completely true
What light does is take the power away from darkness when something that was control by the power of darkness light is turn on it loses it power
in the dark we can not see and we may run into things but take away its power by adding light then we can see were we walk
other wise darkness does not leave its just overpower
lets look at some verses
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
He that is in you Christ Jesus the hope of glory
he that is in the world the devil
but what is the devil I say fleshly worldly desires of animal natural - evil emotions
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
the evil emotions we might let control us like lust, pride, hate, and many more are in the world
but these are ideals which turn into powerful emotions of evil if we let the fleshly desires rule our actions
but if we let the light of truth the love of God rule then the evil emotions lose and good emotions win like love, joy, peace and many others
lets look at it this way
write something evil on a piece of paper then cover it up or remove it with good things
science can still read the evil that lose its power from being cover up or removed
your brain is like that once you get a ideal it there to stay but its up to you which ideal comes to the top
are you control by natural animal desires are spirit Godly desires
do you like it in the dark or do you like the light on
Matt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
tempted of desires which are devils whether to fast or not - get worldly power or not
Look at Adam in Genesis
to rule himself or follower God the two images fighting one another flesh image against spirit image
man desire to be like the animals God desire for men to be like himself
Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
the devil Jesus imagination the worldly ideals he got but overcame
Matt 33:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.
the word cast out is a bad word for this verse because Christ love of goodness overpower the person ideal to be dumb
the man just needed to change his focus from thinking like a animal to thinking like a men
then I guess you think about the story about the child and his father
the father put the ideal in the child mind because wrong teacher or what ever reason so both had to focus to keep the ideal in the dark
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Casting down -- taking away their power and given the power to Christ to rule your actions
high places are the places of power which controls our actions
now some say what about discerning of spirits;
its discerning of powers which power should rule natural animal desire or spiritual Godly desire
the power to know good from bad ideals or images
spirit could of been translated as "mental disposition"
This sounds very weird to me and not at all biblical. I have had the Advanced Class on PFAL several times and I sure never heard of a devil spirit that possessed you and made you smoke cigarettes although I suppose one could.
This whole thing of writing down anything in your past that bothers you is very, very dangerous and if I were you, I would run swiftly in the other direction. People can and will use your past against to prove whatever they want to. I would strongly discourage you from making that list.
Not everybody who has a problem is filled with evil spirits! I have diabetes. That ain't no spirit, it's a disease! I used to smoke, but I quit many years ago. I didn't get a spirit cast out, I just quit because it wasn't good for me.
I would suggest you talk to a Christian therapist, or even a not Christian therapist if you think you need some sort of psychological/spiritual assistance. If you want to talk to someone who has knowledge of the PFAL stuff, I would suggest someone from Wayne Clapp's group, CSF.
Beloved nandon, RachelYsrael, Patrick and Sarah, and brideofjc
God loves you my dear friends
nandon - I not heard about the "healing and deliverance" class or program but what I do know is how Dale Sides pushes their devil spirit doctrines like RachelYsrael shared with you - yes be careful
RachelYsrael - I witness Dale Sides doctrine that seem to build fear in devil spirit and I believe they do not understand them I went to their Church until the focus of the metting changed to changed me because they believe I had a evil spirit - now I still love these people so I look for them and the church is closed now I just wanted to visit my friends
Hi 2027, his classes don't build fear...what you're probably experiencing and/or witnessing with other people is that they do indeed have
demons of fear within them and it is the demons who are rising up because they don't want to lose their nice cozy home, i.e. YOU! or whoever it might be.
Patrick and Sarah - yes there are ministries that are prodegies if TWI - yes "If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at" yes most people understanding of devil spirits are "man made imaginations"
Hardly, man-made imaginations. I'm not a flighty person at all, and I am a living testament that you are very misinformed.
brideofjc - yes one thing effects another- I wrote to Dale Sides many times I have nothing against him personally
lets look at some verses
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
He that is in you Christ Jesus the hope of glory
he that is in the world the devil
but what is the devil I say fleshly worldly desires of animal natural - evil emotions
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
the evil emotions we might let control us like lust, pride, hate, and many more are in the world
but these are ideals which turn into powerful emotions of evil ?? because it is the demon behind those emotions that are being controlled. if we let the fleshly desires rule our actions
are you control by natural animal desires are spirit Godly desires
God can have Spirit? but not the demons? It works both ways
2027. If you want the Lord God to reign, sometimes you have to cast out the demons first.
Matt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
tempted of desires which are devils whether to fast or not - get worldly power or not
Look at Adam in Genesis
to rule himself or follower God the two images fighting one another flesh image against spirit image
We do not war against flesh and blood...what does that mean 2027?
Matt 33:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.
the word cast out is a bad word for this verse because Christ love of goodness overpower the person ideal to be dumb
the man just needed to change his focus from thinking like a animal to thinking like a men
"Cast out" is not a bad word, 2027. It is the very word that is used in the Greek and you nor anyone else can change
the Word of God even if you don't like it. The Lord Jesus cast out demons because they are real. They are not man-made imaginations.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Casting down -- taking away their power and given the power to Christ to rule your actions
Not all thoughts are from the devil, but some are...therefore, discerning of which spirit it is from is crucial. Sometimes, it might
be just poor information on your part, others it very well could be demonic etc.
spirit could of been translated as "mental disposition"
2027, you cannot insert your own translation into the Word of God. If the text uses SPIRIT, it doesn't mean mental disposition.
You should always be careful as I said above about who you allow to lay hands on you. Brother Dale is all right. He carries a
powerful anointing bestowed by God in this area. If fear rises up within you, look under the rocks, it's probably a demon or demons trying to get
you to fear the man/woman of God and get you to leave. Since I don't personally know you Roy...but it sounds like you should have stayed. If
you do or did have any, you would have been delivered. God Bless.
This sounds very weird to me and not at all biblical. I have had the Advanced Class on PFAL several times and I sure never heard of a devil spirit that possessed you and made you smoke cigarettes although I suppose one could.
If it isn't Biblical, why was the Lord Jesus, Son of the Most High God doing it? And yes, you can have a demon that controls your
desire to keep smoking. It would fall into a category of "lust."
This whole thing of writing down anything in your past that bothers you is very, very dangerous and if I were you, I would run swiftly in the other direction. People can and will use your past against to prove whatever they want to. I would strongly discourage you from making that list.
THE LIST SHOULD BE KEPT PRIVATE! Unless the deliverance minister is licensed by the state you live in, WG is absolutely correct. There are some very unscrupulous people out there who will use your past against you. Again, THIS LIST SHOULD BE FOR YOUR EYES ONLY!
Yes, indeed. Make sure the person has a real anointing for it.
Not everybody who has a problem is filled with evil spirits! I have diabetes. That ain't no spirit, it's a disease! I used to smoke, but I quit many years ago. I didn't get a spirit cast out, I just quit because it wasn't good for me.
But on the same token, diseases can have as an underlying and/or precipitating cause, the presence of a demon. I also used to smoke, for almost 20 years and I was most assuredly granted a miracle from the Lord Christ. Whether or not the Lord Jesus cast a demon out of me or He simply removed the nicotine in my body...unsure...but Hallelujah, it worked.
I would suggest you talk to a Christian therapist, or even a not Christian therapist if you think you need some sort of psychological/spiritual assistance. If you want to talk to someone who has knowledge of the PFAL stuff, I would suggest someone from Wayne Clapp's group, CSF.
Chistian therapy can work too, but unless they can also receive revelation from the Lord, sometimes they are limited.
Did YOU ASK FOR DELIVERANCE? Did you tell them you'd like for them to heal you? If YOU did not ask for help, then, what I'd like to know is where these folks get off telling you that you need it?
What this sounds like to me, is theophostics.... aka, just one more "momentus" type of "hot seat".
If someone is looking for devil spirits/demons/wtf ever you want to call them - they most certainly will find them. Look at all the "homo spirits" we found in TWI when we started looking for them. <_<
Ps 32:5 - I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
There is no need, nor requirement that we confess anything to other people. What goes on in your mind, heart, soul, body is between you and God - that's it.
I never took any of his classes but from what I saw from the people around here that were let run the classes is fear there a devil spirit if some one does not agree with them
Now I do not dislike Dale Sides but I do not believe his people understand devil spirit field
the people I am talking about have Christ in their heart so devils can not control them they control their self
While I have a old natural of flesh there is no devil controling me but I might get trick into doing bad I still have free will as do all men
so yes I do not believe one can be control by being devil possessed but what I believe is we all can have bad ideals in our mind which needs to not to be put in action
other wise devil possessed is a bad choice of words but how about "evil imaginations"
yes I do not agree with you on who the devil is
-- your words
Hardly, man-made imaginations. I'm not a flighty person at all, and I am a living testament that you are very misinformed
WE could go scripture by scripture but unless your willing to asked have Christ show you and put away fleshly research works of the flesh and move forward to receiving things spiritual
The answers are in the bible with holy spirit teaching and not in man's made classes no matter who teaches
while Dale Sides is a good man that is all
while I am a good man that is all
while you are a good man that is all
its Christ that will guide us not each other we just help each other find questions to asked
you wrote
?? because it is the demon behind those emotions that are being controlled
if this statement be true there is no free will but we do have free will this is why Christ guides us without controling us
you asked and said
We do not war against flesh and blood...what does that mean 2027?
we war against imaginations which are images in our mind to love a person or hate a person
imaginations can not be seen and they are not made of dust but they blow in the wind as living water or smoke of fire to say
other wise ideals we have good ones against bad ones
the year 2027 will be the 2,000 year from the year Chrit left in the air plus
"Cast out" is not a bad word, 2027. It is the very word that is used in the Greek and you nor anyone else can change
the Word of God even if you don't like it. The Lord Jesus cast out demons because they are real. They are not man-made imaginations.
Can you prove the new testament was first wrote in Greek NO because you only have copies but I have the words has they were spoke in the gift of Christ in me
a living witness to help me
why cast out one place and cast down another place because cast down from its seat of power move to not be act on replace by a good imaginations
Not all thoughts are from the devil, but some are...therefore, discerning of which spirit it is from is crucial. Sometimes, it might
be just poor information on your part, others it very well could be demonic etc.
all thoughts come from our free will either we use our five senses or we reach to receive spiritual knowledge
some thoughts that come from our five senses are bad others are good but there no devil sending them there just evil people pushing evil and good people sharing good its up to us to pick which thoughts to put in action
the verse in question 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I said
spirit could of been translated as "mental disposition"
you said
2027, you cannot insert your own translation into the Word of God. If the text uses SPIRIT, it doesn't mean mental disposition.
I did not insert my own translation into the verse I just look at the meaning to see which other words might work
G4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.
so yes the translators pick a word from a list I can pick another word that fits better because they all should work if that the right meaning of the word
You should always be careful as I said above about who you allow to lay hands on you. Brother Dale is all right.
He carries a powerful anointing bestowed by God in this area. If fear rises up within you, look under the rocks, it's probably a demon or demons trying to get you to fear the man/woman of God and get you to leave.
Since I don't personally know you Roy...but it sounds like you should have stayed. If you do or did have any, you would have been delivered. God Bless.
Do I trust Dale Sides Ministry NO he asked for money right on his web page the word "donations" is there
I trust Paxtucket ministry because he does not ask for money while I do at times wish I had extra to help him he does not asked for it
Now I may be wrong but Paxtucket ministry is to help people who were members of the Way cult while warning the world about the Way cult "The Other Side of the Story"
Dale Sides ministry seems to cost money to buy classes, books, tapes, videos, and etc
I share free the truth as does all who write here there no cost to read my words of prophecy
There no fear in my life but yes things have gave me fear in the past but there all gone now but I still have things I do not trust
Like I do not leave my keys in my car in a mall but you must if your without fear
No I did the right thing focus on one men leaves the others open up to fall into bad habits
Christ has been working with me personally I have seem visions of the past and furture
I have a ministry to share the words wrote by the holy person Roy William Perry III known as year2027 free
Christ has called me out for this work
Now to you brideofjc you can not walk in the shoes of Dale Side you must make your own path -- I see love within your heart but forget classes, books, tapes, videos, the bible, and others things fleshly but get into hour after hour talking at God open up your heart
Then you will begin to learn more than you ever dream things that can not be wrote because they are above words and after God and Christ have taught you these mysteries they will show you how to teach them
try giving "holy kisses" on this board while sharing about your love for God without loseing your cool
I have to disagree strongly with you, brideofjc, but I don't have time to muster my thoughts right now, more important things to do. Sounds a lot like the stuff Scientology does with pseudo-Christian labels to me. When you are a "Clear" you have been de-possessed or something.
And do not ever in your wildest imagination try to say I am diabetic because I'm possessed. You don't know me from Adam's housecat.
Thank you for allowing me the time to "weigh in" on this matter. First of all, you should never proceed with healing and deliverance unless you have some doctrinal understanding from the Word of God. However, there have been some unlearned, hungry people delivered because they were guided by God to the right deliverer. A person should never be prayed for unless they WANT healing and deliverance. There must be a hunger to be "delivered" from whatever the problem is. Also, know that the power of God is more powerful than evil. Christians take authority over evil by faith in the name of Jesus Christ. The person ministering needs to be led by the Spirit to accurately and powerfully deliver a person from their problems. The "cause" or "root" of the problem must, by revelation be exposed and thrown out or the problem will return. Some people pray for the healing and deliverance of others and only deal with the surface of the problem and not pull out the root of the problem. Genuine deliverance occurs when the "cause" of the problems are removed.
IMHO the necessities for a godly life, being healed and delivered come from the following ( I know there are more)
Have a true relationship with Jesus Christ
Love your brother (and sisters)
Have a strong prayer life -
Be led by the Holy Spirit
Be strong in the revelatory gifts (or "manifestations" for the ex-TWI who cant get over the word "gift") word of knowledge, word of wisdom and
be really awake in discerning of spirits
Dont follow ministries, follow Jesus
Be led by God to a ministry so you can walk in unity and "be about your Fathers business". Were talking Kingdom business... the great commission.
People have posted about Dale Sides of Liberating Ministries for Christ, Int.
My ministry was liberated by Dale in 1994. I learned how to operate the healing and delivering gifts through his ministry.
Before anyone passes judgment on his life and ministry, they should meet him or hear him teach.
He is a precious friend and brother.
Through Dale, thousands of pastors and saints have been delivered, healed and equipped in the power of God domestically and in other countries.
I was led to another ministry in 1998 but still reap the blessing of his life, today.
During my involvement with his ministry, I saw many ex-TWI believers take his classes and attempt to follow him. Many were looking to replace TWI with him and he would not comply. Some were disappointed and left because they saw his character flaws (we all have them), or they went into relationship with him hoping to attain a ministry like his or "take" something from him he could not give. Bottom line, many "used " him. Some had legitimate "beefs" with him. None of my business.
He is not a pastor. He is an apostolic warrior. He born to fight the devil. So, some went to him expecting a "medic" and found a "soldier".
I have not seen too many ministers that walk in the healing and deliverance gifts like he does.
I want you to know I am not against Dale Sides but I do believe asking for money and sale-ing books, tapes, videos, classes and others things are wrong
we are to give them out free
and it can be done today on the wep for very little money
now I am written a book that I hope to get in paper form but I will not make money if so because I plan to let AuthorBoard Published it in book form
I have to disagree strongly with you, Rachel, but I don't have time to muster my thoughts right now, more important things to do. Sounds a lot like the stuff Scientology does with pseudo-Christian labels to me. When you are a "Clear" you have been de-possessed or something.
And do not ever in your wildest imagination try to say I am diabetic because I'm possessed. You don't know me from Adam's housecat.
WG
What are you referring to WG? What did I say specifcally that you are responding to? I made no statements about illness and possession. May I suggest you read again whatever it was that you thought I said.
What are you referring to WG? What did I say specifcally that you are responding to? I made no statements about illness and possession. May I suggest you read again whatever it was that you thought I said.
Rachel
Rachel, i think he meant brideofjc... you didn't reply or even address WG in any post.. :-)
Great info on here, this thread is helping me!!!!
I am currently reading a lot of stuff on what these folks (who are nice folks, i've got nothing bad to say about them) believe!!!
All your posts have been fantastic,
thanks for the pm belle!!! perfect stuff for me to check out!!!
I really want you to be delivered of whatever you need to be delivered from!!!!!
What exactly do you need deliverance from?
Is seeking it your idea or is someone telling you that you need it?
Will your deliverance be a free gift of God's love or are there strings attached?
Is the deliverance from a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ or from a hookeypooist? ( That's a brand new word for me based on an old one.) The hookeypooist that acts as a minister is the most difficult to spot.
These are a few of the things that I consider and I don't know any of the people that the rest of these folks are talking about.
I have to disagree strongly with you, brideofjc, but I don't have time to muster my thoughts right now, more important things to do. Sounds a lot like the stuff Scientology does with pseudo-Christian labels to me. When you are a "Clear" you have been de-possessed or something.
And do not ever in your wildest imagination try to say I am diabetic because I'm possessed. You don't know me from Adam's housecat.
WG
Hello, WG
Please re-read what I wrote. I do not believe I said you were...here is my quote:
"But on the same token, diseases can have as an underlying and/or precipitating cause, the presence of a demon."
I don't believe I said your name. You're right, I do not know you, so I cannot personally say if there is anything underlying your diabetes. That would
have to come by revelation from the Lord Jesus. Blessings.
I really want you to be delivered of whatever you need to be delivered from!!!!!
What exactly do you need deliverance from?
Is seeking it your idea or is someone telling you that you need it?
Will your deliverance be a free gift of God's love or are there strings attached?
Is the deliverance from a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ or from a hookeypooist? ( That's a brand new word for me based on an old one.) The hookeypooist that acts as a minister is the most difficult to spot.
These are a few of the things that I consider and I don't know any of the people that the rest of these folks are talking about.
Hmm,,,
i dont' do drugs... (despite the avitar) i stopped that stuff, and only did it for a short period in my life
i dont' drink...
no steroids
i eat healthy, workout, work hard at my job, support myself...
i do have trust issues with people... i have issues that go back to TWI related things...
i feel i have moved on from them, but things do pop up every now and then.
So i'd say my trust issues with people are my biggest deliverance need.
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RachelYsrael
I have some friends in Deleware that got involved with a man named Dale Sides (I think that's his last name - sounds like it anyway). She went to him to cast out demons. Healing and Deliverence is what she said. Cigarette demons, to be specific. The exorcism apparently was a hit, she no longer smokes. But the thing is, she has to go for touch-ups. Every few months or so, the demon has to be ejected again.
I think this is so dangerous I can't even speak. God wants us healed from illness. He wants us delivered. But sickness was set in motion at the fall - It's called death. Every ache and pain leads to the first death. Sure, we can be healthy - Take vitamins, run. Take care of yourself. I think the biggest way to get healed physically is to make a concerted effort to not sin. That is our protection. Trying to live as holy a life as we can. There are 10 rules - we all know them. If we try to live by them, we might not be so sick all the time. Sin brings death - and I believe active and willful sin brings ilness.
"Sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law' - John wrote that. In one of his epistles. God wants us to have an abundant life, right? Abundant means: "above the common one" Well, what type of life is above the common one? We all are alive, right? I think it means to live again, in our new bodies. Not in this life - This life is the common one. And how do we do that? Endure till the end, then we will be saved. Just obey Him. See if you can keep the 10 commandments for 7 days. I say 7 days because of the Sabbath. Nevermind what we have been taght, just try it. It's good. Afterward you will feel wonderful. And don't lie. Don't steal anything, or bear false witness. Don't commit adultery, or think about sexual immorality. Stop saying God does things you can't prove in the Bible (take His name in vain - That's in Zechariah, by the way - the practical application of it).
If you do this, you may very well get some healing and deliverance.
Rachel
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nandon
that kind of sounds like it.
they are saying its more about things in your past. It's about casting out spirits, and they say we all have them, and we need to rid ourselves of them.
it sounds more like therapy to me,
im supposed to write down anything in my past that i can remember that bothered me, then talk about them in the "healing and deliverence" session, then god will show me what spirits are operating in me (because the situations that bothered me in the past are how the spirits moved in)
what the heck am i getting myself into..
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RachelYsrael
Please be careful. Acts 19 talks about exorcists - It literally means conjurures, that binds things with words. You can get healing annd deliverance on your own. Read the Word, Pray and keep the Commandments. If you love Jesus, that's how you prove it.
Good luck to you.
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nandon
thank you rachel.
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Patrick and Sarah
I only have a few seconds and this really needs some in depth explination.
I know of two ministries that are prodegies if TWI.....though they say they are healed from that. One has been mentioned and the other is I was involved with for a few years.......and it was really a drag.
You don't need a minister to cast demons out of you.........Bottom line.
Glad you asked and I'll add more when I have more time.
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nandon
thank you PatrickandSarah i look forward to hearing what you have to say!!!!!
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Patrick and Sarah
Hi nandon,
I have experience with one of the largest cults in the US back in the 80's and then one of the smallest cults in the us, back in the 90s.
From the 80's TWI came some Corp. grads who felt that they had to be delivered from the devil in order to continue their ministries of miricles. They can talk extensivly about their deliverences, and where God has brought them as ministers for the Lord Jesus Christ.
I had som false expectations back in the 90's where I actually expected to find a good fellowship in one of these groups. I went through years of being dissatisfied as I "worked out my own salvation", so I am thankful for the time spent.
Basically they are harmless. I found that the leader was not what I had thought he was. I was looking for friendship and fellowship and found 'doctrine to be over love' rather then the other way around. My soul was hurt from the whole experience. I'm still healing. I see better now and realize what my false expectations where.
Here is the problem I had with the whole thing. I knew I had some issues, but had a hard time thinking I had these demons, that hey could so easily catagorize and cast out. My skepticism showed, and I was never really fully excepted, or so I fealt. I did not fit in with the program, so we where distanced for years, while living in the same, rather small town.
The distance actaually did me some good, because I worked out the issues of my false expectations.
If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at. They think themselves to have this deliverance ministry and by golly they will deliver you, and expect your support so they can continue to deliver more people. You will be included on the mailing list and thank you for your support.
It is hard to love and get to know people if they think that you have some demons. It is not real in that respect. They actually do attempt to do some good by delving into your past.........there is some profit to this, but the scars will take a lot more then what they are offering.
First and formost you must know that you are loved by God. "God loves you" is the first premise of Christianity. "For God so loved the world....."
The dualism involved in God against the devil is what keeps these enchantments strong. A belief is a powerful thing. If you believe that you have a devil, it will manifest in the way you expect.
God is love...this is the one power.....the rest is man made imaginations.
What man imagines in the spiritual, has powerful influence on his outlook on life.
Dualism is what fuels all of the hoopla of casting out devils.
Renewed mind is the streangth to overcome. Renewed mind to love. As God loves, so do I. That is called an affirmation. An affirmation is part of the renewed mind and has to do with your self talk. If your self talk is ,"I have a devil" you are seeing seperation rather then oneness with God. This sepperation is a lie that you believe. You have to erradicate it by changing your mind and putting a more profitable beleif in it's place. God is love, and God is me. As God loves, so do I.
Patrick
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brideofjc
First, true healing comes from the Lord Jesus Christ. Sometimes He grants us true miracles and we manifest them instantly, and
at other times they may take some time. I also am involved with deliverance and no it is not evil. I do caution you however to know who is about to
lay hands on you. I have learned personally that though some may say they are deliverance ministers, they themselves should've checked under their
own hoods first before trying to re-wire someone else's motor.
Many times I have found that there is a lack of understanding in the differences between iniquity, transgressions and sins. God uses all three words and they mean different things. Also, many times, sickness is let in through our doors because of unforgiveness being present towards anything or anyone. Sometimes
traumas are the open doors for demons to enter. Such as a women being sexually abused...it was done to them...it wasn't their fault but the trauma of
such opens the door for various demons to manifest in their later years. Fear can be a persistent demon that then colors that person's life unless dealt
with through deliverance.
You say it sounds like therapy...in a way it is...But it goes further than therapy which only deals with the symptoms of the problem, while deliverance
if led correctly by the Lord Jesus Christ, for He is the Master, gets to the underlying root cause of the problem.
I highly recommend a tape series done by Dale Sides called "Mending Cracks in the Soul", find some time by yourself, you'll need it, a big box of
Kleenex and be prepared to be on your knees repenting before the Lord Jesus Christ.
lmci.org
Blessings in your endeavors
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year2027
God first
Beloved nandon, RachelYsrael, Patrick and Sarah, and brideofjc
God loves you my dear friends
nandon - I not heard about the "healing and deliverance" class or program but what I do know is how Dale Sides pushes their devil spirit doctrines like RachelYsrael shared with you - yes be careful
RachelYsrael - I witness Dale Sides doctrine that seem to build fear in devil spirit and I believe they do not understand them I went to their Church until the focus of the metting changed to changed me because they believe I had a evil spirit - now I still love these people so I look for them and the church is closed now I just wanted to visit my friends
Patrick and Sarah - yes there are ministries that are prodegies if TWI - yes "If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at" yes most people understanding of devil spirits are "man made imaginations"
brideofjc - yes one thing effects another- I wrote to Dale Sides many times I have nothing against him personally
I wrote all you that reply here because what I about to write can be address to all
I been thinking of repling to this tread from the time I saw it was about devil spirits
In the Way Ministry we were taught that light cast out darkness but today I know that is not completely true
What light does is take the power away from darkness when something that was control by the power of darkness light is turn on it loses it power
in the dark we can not see and we may run into things but take away its power by adding light then we can see were we walk
other wise darkness does not leave its just overpower
lets look at some verses
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
He that is in you Christ Jesus the hope of glory
he that is in the world the devil
but what is the devil I say fleshly worldly desires of animal natural - evil emotions
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
the evil emotions we might let control us like lust, pride, hate, and many more are in the world
but these are ideals which turn into powerful emotions of evil if we let the fleshly desires rule our actions
but if we let the light of truth the love of God rule then the evil emotions lose and good emotions win like love, joy, peace and many others
lets look at it this way
write something evil on a piece of paper then cover it up or remove it with good things
science can still read the evil that lose its power from being cover up or removed
your brain is like that once you get a ideal it there to stay but its up to you which ideal comes to the top
are you control by natural animal desires are spirit Godly desires
do you like it in the dark or do you like the light on
Matt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
tempted of desires which are devils whether to fast or not - get worldly power or not
Look at Adam in Genesis
to rule himself or follower God the two images fighting one another flesh image against spirit image
man desire to be like the animals God desire for men to be like himself
Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
the devil Jesus imagination the worldly ideals he got but overcame
Matt 33:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.
the word cast out is a bad word for this verse because Christ love of goodness overpower the person ideal to be dumb
the man just needed to change his focus from thinking like a animal to thinking like a men
then I guess you think about the story about the child and his father
the father put the ideal in the child mind because wrong teacher or what ever reason so both had to focus to keep the ideal in the dark
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Casting down -- taking away their power and given the power to Christ to rule your actions
high places are the places of power which controls our actions
now some say what about discerning of spirits;
its discerning of powers which power should rule natural animal desire or spiritual Godly desire
the power to know good from bad ideals or images
spirit could of been translated as "mental disposition"
just something to think about
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Watered Garden
Nandon,
This sounds very weird to me and not at all biblical. I have had the Advanced Class on PFAL several times and I sure never heard of a devil spirit that possessed you and made you smoke cigarettes although I suppose one could.
This whole thing of writing down anything in your past that bothers you is very, very dangerous and if I were you, I would run swiftly in the other direction. People can and will use your past against to prove whatever they want to. I would strongly discourage you from making that list.
Casting out of spirits is only done by revelation from God of (a) if there is an evil spirit present, (b) if so, what kind, and © whether or not you may cast it out. I would personally add (d) for more Details on how to go about it.
Not everybody who has a problem is filled with evil spirits! I have diabetes. That ain't no spirit, it's a disease! I used to smoke, but I quit many years ago. I didn't get a spirit cast out, I just quit because it wasn't good for me.
I would suggest you talk to a Christian therapist, or even a not Christian therapist if you think you need some sort of psychological/spiritual assistance. If you want to talk to someone who has knowledge of the PFAL stuff, I would suggest someone from Wayne Clapp's group, CSF.
Be wise and be careful.
WG
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brideofjc
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brideofjc
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Belle
Nandon,
Did YOU ASK FOR DELIVERANCE? Did you tell them you'd like for them to heal you? If YOU did not ask for help, then, what I'd like to know is where these folks get off telling you that you need it?
What this sounds like to me, is theophostics.... aka, just one more "momentus" type of "hot seat".
If someone is looking for devil spirits/demons/wtf ever you want to call them - they most certainly will find them. Look at all the "homo spirits" we found in TWI when we started looking for them. <_<
Ps 32:5 - I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
There is no need, nor requirement that we confess anything to other people. What goes on in your mind, heart, soul, body is between you and God - that's it.
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year2027
God first
Beloved brideofjc
God loves you my dear friend
I never took any of his classes but from what I saw from the people around here that were let run the classes is fear there a devil spirit if some one does not agree with them
Now I do not dislike Dale Sides but I do not believe his people understand devil spirit field
the people I am talking about have Christ in their heart so devils can not control them they control their self
While I have a old natural of flesh there is no devil controling me but I might get trick into doing bad I still have free will as do all men
so yes I do not believe one can be control by being devil possessed but what I believe is we all can have bad ideals in our mind which needs to not to be put in action
other wise devil possessed is a bad choice of words but how about "evil imaginations"
yes I do not agree with you on who the devil is
-- your words
WE could go scripture by scripture but unless your willing to asked have Christ show you and put away fleshly research works of the flesh and move forward to receiving things spiritualThe answers are in the bible with holy spirit teaching and not in man's made classes no matter who teaches
while Dale Sides is a good man that is all
while I am a good man that is all
while you are a good man that is all
its Christ that will guide us not each other we just help each other find questions to asked
you wrote
if this statement be true there is no free will but we do have free will this is why Christ guides us without controling us
you asked and said
we war against imaginations which are images in our mind to love a person or hate a personimaginations can not be seen and they are not made of dust but they blow in the wind as living water or smoke of fire to say
other wise ideals we have good ones against bad ones
the year 2027 will be the 2,000 year from the year Chrit left in the air plus
Can you prove the new testament was first wrote in Greek NO because you only have copies but I have the words has they were spoke in the gift of Christ in me
a living witness to help me
why cast out one place and cast down another place because cast down from its seat of power move to not be act on replace by a good imaginations
all thoughts come from our free will either we use our five senses or we reach to receive spiritual knowledgesome thoughts that come from our five senses are bad others are good but there no devil sending them there just evil people pushing evil and good people sharing good its up to us to pick which thoughts to put in action
the verse in question 1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I said
you said
I did not insert my own translation into the verse I just look at the meaning to see which other words might workG4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.
so yes the translators pick a word from a list I can pick another word that fits better because they all should work if that the right meaning of the word
Do I trust Dale Sides Ministry NO he asked for money right on his web page the word "donations" is there
I trust Paxtucket ministry because he does not ask for money while I do at times wish I had extra to help him he does not asked for it
Now I may be wrong but Paxtucket ministry is to help people who were members of the Way cult while warning the world about the Way cult "The Other Side of the Story"
Dale Sides ministry seems to cost money to buy classes, books, tapes, videos, and etc
I share free the truth as does all who write here there no cost to read my words of prophecy
There no fear in my life but yes things have gave me fear in the past but there all gone now but I still have things I do not trust
Like I do not leave my keys in my car in a mall but you must if your without fear
No I did the right thing focus on one men leaves the others open up to fall into bad habits
Christ has been working with me personally I have seem visions of the past and furture
I have a ministry to share the words wrote by the holy person Roy William Perry III known as year2027 free
Christ has called me out for this work
Now to you brideofjc you can not walk in the shoes of Dale Side you must make your own path -- I see love within your heart but forget classes, books, tapes, videos, the bible, and others things fleshly but get into hour after hour talking at God open up your heart
Then you will begin to learn more than you ever dream things that can not be wrote because they are above words and after God and Christ have taught you these mysteries they will show you how to teach them
try giving "holy kisses" on this board while sharing about your love for God without loseing your cool
http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/index.php
The bible reads do this in
Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
does Dale Sides do it and do you
come lets do all the bible saids to do without fear but with love
read this tread I wrote
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=16283
and my life story if you want to get to know me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Watered Garden
I have to disagree strongly with you, brideofjc, but I don't have time to muster my thoughts right now, more important things to do. Sounds a lot like the stuff Scientology does with pseudo-Christian labels to me. When you are a "Clear" you have been de-possessed or something.
And do not ever in your wildest imagination try to say I am diabetic because I'm possessed. You don't know me from Adam's housecat.
WG
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Son of the Master
Dear Nandon,
Thank you for allowing me the time to "weigh in" on this matter. First of all, you should never proceed with healing and deliverance unless you have some doctrinal understanding from the Word of God. However, there have been some unlearned, hungry people delivered because they were guided by God to the right deliverer. A person should never be prayed for unless they WANT healing and deliverance. There must be a hunger to be "delivered" from whatever the problem is. Also, know that the power of God is more powerful than evil. Christians take authority over evil by faith in the name of Jesus Christ. The person ministering needs to be led by the Spirit to accurately and powerfully deliver a person from their problems. The "cause" or "root" of the problem must, by revelation be exposed and thrown out or the problem will return. Some people pray for the healing and deliverance of others and only deal with the surface of the problem and not pull out the root of the problem. Genuine deliverance occurs when the "cause" of the problems are removed.
IMHO the necessities for a godly life, being healed and delivered come from the following ( I know there are more)
Have a true relationship with Jesus Christ
Love your brother (and sisters)
Have a strong prayer life -
Be led by the Holy Spirit
Be strong in the revelatory gifts (or "manifestations" for the ex-TWI who cant get over the word "gift") word of knowledge, word of wisdom and
be really awake in discerning of spirits
Dont follow ministries, follow Jesus
Be led by God to a ministry so you can walk in unity and "be about your Fathers business". Were talking Kingdom business... the great commission.
People have posted about Dale Sides of Liberating Ministries for Christ, Int.
My ministry was liberated by Dale in 1994. I learned how to operate the healing and delivering gifts through his ministry.
Before anyone passes judgment on his life and ministry, they should meet him or hear him teach.
He is a precious friend and brother.
Through Dale, thousands of pastors and saints have been delivered, healed and equipped in the power of God domestically and in other countries.
I was led to another ministry in 1998 but still reap the blessing of his life, today.
During my involvement with his ministry, I saw many ex-TWI believers take his classes and attempt to follow him. Many were looking to replace TWI with him and he would not comply. Some were disappointed and left because they saw his character flaws (we all have them), or they went into relationship with him hoping to attain a ministry like his or "take" something from him he could not give. Bottom line, many "used " him. Some had legitimate "beefs" with him. None of my business.
He is not a pastor. He is an apostolic warrior. He born to fight the devil. So, some went to him expecting a "medic" and found a "soldier".
I have not seen too many ministers that walk in the healing and deliverance gifts like he does.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Watered Garden
God loves you my dear friend
I bet you met brideofjc not Rachel when you reply
its good to see you
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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year2027
God first
Beloved Son of the Master
God loves you my dear friend
I want you to know I am not against Dale Sides but I do believe asking for money and sale-ing books, tapes, videos, classes and others things are wrong
we are to give them out free
and it can be done today on the wep for very little money
now I am written a book that I hope to get in paper form but I will not make money if so because I plan to let AuthorBoard Published it in book form
http://www.author-me.com/
but you can read every thing I write on my web page free
http://www.freewebs.com/year2027/
Now the reason I went to see the ones who were part of Dale Sides was because I wanted to fellowship with my friends
Dale Sides has said some things I agree with but when men of God ask for money I do not trust them all the way
I believe Dale Sides understanding on devil spirits puts fear in people's life were they see devil spirits every where
making the devil more powerful than he is taking away man's free will
but this is just me
I wish Dale Side would come here and debate us him self on devils
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RachelYsrael
What are you referring to WG? What did I say specifcally that you are responding to? I made no statements about illness and possession. May I suggest you read again whatever it was that you thought I said.
Rachel
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nandon
Rachel, i think he meant brideofjc... you didn't reply or even address WG in any post.. :-)
Great info on here, this thread is helping me!!!!
I am currently reading a lot of stuff on what these folks (who are nice folks, i've got nothing bad to say about them) believe!!!
All your posts have been fantastic,
thanks for the pm belle!!! perfect stuff for me to check out!!!
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JeffSjo
Hi Nandon,
I really want you to be delivered of whatever you need to be delivered from!!!!!
What exactly do you need deliverance from?
Is seeking it your idea or is someone telling you that you need it?
Will your deliverance be a free gift of God's love or are there strings attached?
Is the deliverance from a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ or from a hookeypooist? ( That's a brand new word for me based on an old one.) The hookeypooist that acts as a minister is the most difficult to spot.
These are a few of the things that I consider and I don't know any of the people that the rest of these folks are talking about.
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Watered Garden
Rachel - I am SO sorry! I was responding to brideofjc and in a hurry. Misspoke myself big times. I"m so sorry!
My bad!
WG
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brideofjc
Hello, WG
Please re-read what I wrote. I do not believe I said you were...here is my quote:
"But on the same token, diseases can have as an underlying and/or precipitating cause, the presence of a demon."
I don't believe I said your name. You're right, I do not know you, so I cannot personally say if there is anything underlying your diabetes. That would
have to come by revelation from the Lord Jesus. Blessings.
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nandon
Hmm,,,
i dont' do drugs... (despite the avitar) i stopped that stuff, and only did it for a short period in my life
i dont' drink...
no steroids
i eat healthy, workout, work hard at my job, support myself...
i do have trust issues with people... i have issues that go back to TWI related things...
i feel i have moved on from them, but things do pop up every now and then.
So i'd say my trust issues with people are my biggest deliverance need.
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