I'm just thinking off the top of my head and maybe WordWolf can find the scripture -- but the lady that mocked the apostles. She had a Viper spirit or something (sharp tongue). They couldn't do anything for a little while....
But it is an interesting question - I'll have to think on it some more.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their [imaginations,] and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
these verses are talking about people being possessed with ideals that change the picture of who God is
2 Cor 10:5 Casting down [imaginations,] and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
casting out imaginations which is bad pictures or ideals in your heart or mind
G1261. dialogismos, dee-al-og-is-mos'; from G1260; discussion, i.e. (internal) consideration (by impl. purpose), or (external) debate:--dispute, doubtful (-ing), imagination, reasoning, thought.
used 14 times
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil [thoughts,] murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil [thoughts,] adulteries, fornications, murders,
Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the [thoughts] of many hearts may be revealed.
Luke 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their [thoughts,] he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luke 6:8 But he knew their [thoughts], and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
Luke 9:46 Then there arose a [reasoning] among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the [thought] of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do [thoughts] arise in your hearts?
Rom 1:21
Rom 14:14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to [doubtful] disputations.
1 Cor 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the [thoughts] of the wise, that they are vain.
Phil 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and [disputings:]
1 Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and [doubting.]
James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil [thoughts?]
note perceiving in verses like Luke 9:47 and others as G1492. eido, i'-do; a prim. verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equiv. G3700 and G3708; prop. to see (lit. or fig.); by impl. (in the perf. only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Comp. G3700.
G3053. logismos, log-is-mos'; from G3049; computation, i.e. (fig.) reasoning (conscience, conceit):--imagination, thought.
used two times second
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their [thoughts] the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
now I say this discerning of spirits is talking about ideals or imaginations
When I was young I cut on my self because of wrongful ideals I got trying to get others to look at me and I believe this can all so be a sickness destroying the mind
for me to over come this ideal it took alot of talks of love and is not pray fellowship
but there a lot we can learn from just asking God what to share
what is a spirit but a image of good or bad whether I use discerning of imaginations or discerning of spirits which even in the Greek are two differ words but you get the ideal
It amazes me how truly *out of order* my home is...my goodness...and I have yet to operate the wholesale cruelty and criminal behavior by our oh so physicals in perfect order = spiritual giant leaders in twi.
Seriously, I can`t help you cinderpelt. I know that two of my friends were thrown out as homos...one was married with many children, one married and had several...it was so absolutely dumb...but so terribly hurtfull.
It`d be my observation that discerning of spirits, if indeed is available, certainly couldn`t be operated like we were taught in twi...or we`d a sure recognised how many of our illustrious leaders were courting a few themselves.
It was just another tool to hurt people who didn`t bow down and kiss leaderships arse.
Better to focus on the evidence at hand than to ignore and pretend that it just doesn`t exist because it might prove detrimental to ones pet theories :)
I was never real good at memorizing, rules and regulations and 10 line definitions like those on the Adv. Class retemories, so I just asked God to let me know if I need to know anything about a situation or individual. I usually didn't and don't ask for revelation in any situation. I never saw a lot of Biblical truth in what was taught in the Adv. Class, as much as complicated examples extrapolated from scripture that was as much private interpretation as I could have come up with on my own.
That said, there are still times when being around an individual will give me a little icy shiver up my spine that has nothing to do with the air temperature around me. It seems to say "Be aware! This person has spiritual problems." No technicolor vision, no flashing lights, no little voice whispering in my brain. Just that little icy shiver. It started happening when I worked as a receptionist at a "residential facility for behaviorally-challenged adolescent females" populated by order of the court with some very scary young ladies. It still happens today, including when I hand out a sample at work sometimes. I suppose it's God's way of putting me on yellow alert. I just don't give it much thought. And I smashed the cookie jar that was full of pain and misinformation years ago.
I will say this, and I'm putting it in all capital letters because it is critically important: BE DAMN CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY TO PEOPLE OR ACCUSE OR DIAGNOSE THEM OF HAVING OR DOING!!!!! DON'T PREACH ANYTHING TO SHOW OFF HOW CLEVER OR SPIRITUAL YOU ARE! LIVES CAN DEPEND ON IT!
Ask Waysider if you doubt the above. He lost a friend secondary to some seed of the serpent BS some little Adv. Class grad spewed without thinking, and likely without having a clue what she was really talking about.
Get over the "VP said it, that settles it, I believe it" mindset. Read the Bible. Learn to think. Be compassionate. God gave us one mouth and two ears. Maybe He wants us to listen twice as much as we talk.
Discerning of spririts. I'm not sure this is part of this topic. my understanding of discerning of spirits is the abilility of a heightened sense to detect the presence of evil. Sort of like you are in a situation or encounter someone and your spider sense starts tingling. not an ability to cast out the demons, the best way I can put it. Some times I get a real strange feeling about something that something just is'nt right and times most times it involves people and my having to make a descion. I would explain further but I might be off track.
I've had a few situations, as described above, where just out in the world people would stare at me in a way and make comments. One man at a homeless place started yelling at me for no reason and I looked him dead in the face and said, "I'm talking to this man, not you, so leave." And he did. The man I was standing with was amazed. I knew that was spiritual. But I wasn't led to "cast anything out." Another time this lady was completely out of her mind, punching everyone that came near her and I walked up to her, took her hand, and led her away speaking in tongues and she just walked like a zombie. People all clapped for me afterwards -- I said, it wasn't me, it was God.
I recall reading in one of the books -- it was Jesus who controlled the spirits with Words -- or something like that. I'll have to find it.
In Advanced Class we learned that you don't always cast out the spirit -- only God knows when it's time -- sometimes it's just for your knowledge.
But LCM definitely abused that, along with alot of other things.
Watered Garden, you are totally correct in your APP-CAPS warning. I too saw many cheap tricks that shallow grads pulled talking about spirits in a non-edifying manner. We are to walk in love.
***
Now back to discerning of good spirits...
From my AC syllabus (with my red highlighting) under the category of “What It Is”:
“The manifestation of Discerning of Spirits is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by his revealing it to you the necessary information concerning the presence or non-presence of spirits and the identity of spirits present, and if evil , whether you may cast them out.”
I highlighted the word “may” because there are times when Father give us “no cookie” and that’s just as important to receive as a cookie is because it’s from FATHER.
I italicized the last phrase because I was instructed (at the second summer 1975 Emporia AC) to add it into my syllabus by hand. The syllabus I had received there was from earlier years. It seems this addition was necessary in 1975 (remember my trivia quiz in post #6 above?) in spite of something to the same effect THAT IS printed in my syllabus.
This can be seen in another line under “What it is” which reads regarding Discerning of Spirits:
“It is to discern, detect, be made aware of their presence, and to determine their identity, whether they be the spirits of the devil (diabolos), the holy spirit, or the spirit of man. If evil, whether they may be cast out (this requires the manifestation of Workings of Miracles).”
Like what the recent thread on cancer disclosed, we can see here that the AC teachings evolved somewhat in accordance with what we were ABLE to receive, and especially to what we were ABLE to remember and apply. In 1975 we needed to be reminded (due to our spiritual immaturity) that Discerning of Spirits was NOT supposed to revolve around devil spirits as much as it was. It seems we STILL need to be reminded of the good side of Discerning of Spirits.
***
Under the category of “What it is Not” we read:
“3. It is not the discerning of faults.”
So it was never supposed to be a tool for picking on personalities that bugged us. It seems this too was hardly ever read by many grads. We have a lot of catching up to do.
***
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
What I was trying to convey is that many, many people took these definitions and made them a gospel of sorts. I don't even believe very much of what I learned in the Adv. Class any more, primarily because it can lead one to think s/he is so amazingly spiritual, so very in tune with God, that by memorizing a definition like the one Mike so graciously posted above, s/he can receive revelation from God every time s/he turns around. This can lead to individuals categorizing someone by their behavior, their looks, something they say or do and rattling off, not from scripture, but from a human-inspired definition of that individual's PERCEIVED problem. So it ends up that a person is labelled, "possessed" or "born of the seed of the serpent" when the poor fellow just needed some medication or a hug.
A biggie I do recall is a list someone put together of the characteristics of various categories of devil spirits. I think it was in the Athletes tape but also in the adv. class. So all you have to do is write down the characteristics and walk around looking for trouble. "Oh, that guy over there? He looks sad. I bet he's possessed with a spirit of depression." Or, "Oh, that guy is wearing a pink necktie. Bet he's got a homo spirit." See what I mean?
I am a screaming little bytch when my blood sugar gets out of control. If it's too high, I can snap your head off for nothing. Low enough, and I hallucinate, thrash and scream in my sleep. The latter is a precursor to death from acute hypoglycemia, and if my husband were of the mindset that every aberration in behavior is caused by devil spirit possession, I'd be in a very deep state of death right now.
What I'm trying to say is "Be very careful indeed with this stuff. It can do much more harm than good."
I would say off hand more people were hurt than helped with this informtion.
Amen Garden. My friends were devestated when thrown out of the ministry. Every one that they knew considered them the scum of the earth, loathsome despicable.
One gal`s innie family has children that their aunt and grandmother have never met because of fear from devil spirit contamniation.
So many many times *general spiritual suspiscion* was used to assault people whom a believer just personally didn`t like.
It was a horrible thing, if it truly operated as taught, no doubt we`d a all seen how spiritually depraved so many of our leaders were.
bate1 /beɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[beyt]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, bat·ed, bat·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to moderate or restrain: unable to bate our enthusiasm.
2. to lessen or diminish; abate: setbacks that bated his hopes.
–verb (used without object) 3. to diminish or subside; abate.
—Idiom4. with bated breath, with breath drawn in or held because of anticipation or suspense: We watched with bated breath as the runners approached the finish line.
Usage Note: The word baited is sometimes incorrectly substituted for the etymologically correct but unfamiliar word bated ("abated; suspended") in the expression bated breath.
...unless of course you'd like to 'spin it' that you were implying that I was trying to lure you into something which I wasn't... so I repeat:
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
Would YOU please just TELL US your thoughts?
(Mike, are you the guy in "The Most Interesting Man in the World" commercials?)
Tom, I actually don't know the answer to that question. I do think it's worth pondering.
What I'm trying to say is "Be very careful indeed with this stuff. It can do much more harm than good."
I would say off hand more people were hurt than helped with this informtion.
I agree.
When we finally get the information correct and complete then it CAN be useful and helpful.
With partial or incorrect information much damage happens, especially when love is absent.
In the early 80’s I was directed to help a grad artist to come up with an illustrated poster of the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.”
Key #8 is “Do not tell all you know. Receive Word of Wisdom.”
To illustrate this we came up with a grad ministering to another who has a little devil standing on his shoulder, like in the cartoons. The ministering grad is looking lovingly at the face of the tormented one while reaching around his back to flick the devil off the shoulder from behind. The tormented one doesn’t even see this, because all the action takes place behind him. It looks to him like an one-arm hug is taking place.
The Word of Wisdom spoken out by the grad in a soft, kind voice is “Hey, don’t think of the devil so much. Just magnify the Word!”
The devil is sent flying by the mere flick of the grad’s finger. It was one of the best illustrations in the poster. It was much needed.
I'm trying to post a .tif file of this illustration but it's not working. Anyone know how?
This is in addition to my last post. The situations I was talking about people are involved but only for that situation on hand. It really has nothing to with that person in general just maybe I can put it like this, A force working through, maybe around or just present at the time. what happens is those moments that affect my actions or re-actions that bring consequences that I did not forsee weather good or bad. Sometimes the spidey sense says it's a God thing . It has nothing to do with the people or persons as an individuals. Just tools to bring about the events that will bring a change to my life or thought. Not all these situations leave me with a feeling of the presence of evil, like I stated before sometimes I feel it was a God thing that just happened. Something like that.
I think if a person has to ask the other guy if he's possessed.. or what the specific problem is- maybe they are on the wrong track. That pretty much defined counselling in der vey, toward the end of the ninties..
"umm, figure out what your problem is (what spurt you got) and get back with us. then we may be able to get somewhere.."
Maybe some of you have had experiences otherwise, but other than the general evil nature of man in the world.. I haven't seen any specific empirical evidence that debil spurts, at least as defined by der vey, even exist.. even through my entire "tenure" in the organization.
Haven't seen them teleport loot out of a locked bank vault..
haven't seen them teleport ANYTHING anyway..
I think they manner the advanced class presented this whole subject.. was a kingdom of entities with varying levels of authority, but micromanaged. Yeah, loy talked about "organized chaos" and the like, but there in the syllabus you find all of these "specialized" spirits to choose from..
But why is this information, if it is such, even necessary, in either partial or complete form? I am into helping people, but my point that I guess I'm not making very clear, is that you just can't go around "discerning spirits" and help anyone other than yourself. And what kind of help is that? To prove to yourself that you are indeed a most exceedingly great and might person of God?
I think it's nice that people think they can do this, but I wonder if in a way it's not the power of suggestion kicking in. I mean, if someone is doing such and such, you can just pull out out the old AC syllabus, check the list, and plug in the name/category of a devil spirit that has to be causing it.
In the least I think these definitions limit God. And I think the whole damn AC was very dangerous.
I saw people come back from the AC with so many stupid ideas, it blows me away, the least of which is that Star Wars promoted the holy trinity. (Darth the father, Luke the son, and Yoda the holy spirit)
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Outfield
I'm just thinking off the top of my head and maybe WordWolf can find the scripture -- but the lady that mocked the apostles. She had a Viper spirit or something (sharp tongue). They couldn't do anything for a little while....
But it is an interesting question - I'll have to think on it some more.
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year2027
God first
Beloved cinderpelt
God loves you my dear friend
lets me build a picture
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their [imaginations,] and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
these verses are talking about people being possessed with ideals that change the picture of who God is
2 Cor 10:5 Casting down [imaginations,] and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
casting out imaginations which is bad pictures or ideals in your heart or mind
G1261. dialogismos, dee-al-og-is-mos'; from G1260; discussion, i.e. (internal) consideration (by impl. purpose), or (external) debate:--dispute, doubtful (-ing), imagination, reasoning, thought.
used 14 times
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil [thoughts,] murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil [thoughts,] adulteries, fornications, murders,
Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the [thoughts] of many hearts may be revealed.
Luke 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their [thoughts,] he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luke 6:8 But he knew their [thoughts], and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
Luke 9:46 Then there arose a [reasoning] among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the [thought] of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do [thoughts] arise in your hearts?
Rom 1:21
Rom 14:14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to [doubtful] disputations.
1 Cor 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the [thoughts] of the wise, that they are vain.
Phil 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and [disputings:]
1 Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and [doubting.]
James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil [thoughts?]
note perceiving in verses like Luke 9:47 and others as G1492. eido, i'-do; a prim. verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equiv. G3700 and G3708; prop. to see (lit. or fig.); by impl. (in the perf. only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Comp. G3700.
G3053. logismos, log-is-mos'; from G3049; computation, i.e. (fig.) reasoning (conscience, conceit):--imagination, thought.
used two times second
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their [thoughts] the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
now I say this discerning of spirits is talking about ideals or imaginations
When I was young I cut on my self because of wrongful ideals I got trying to get others to look at me and I believe this can all so be a sickness destroying the mind
for me to over come this ideal it took alot of talks of love and is not pray fellowship
but there a lot we can learn from just asking God what to share
what is a spirit but a image of good or bad whether I use discerning of imaginations or discerning of spirits which even in the Greek are two differ words but you get the ideal
I hope this helps
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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hiway29
In the way it was discerning of faults, unmade beds, and anything about you that the local leader didn't like.
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rascal
discerning of unmade beds...lmao thanks hiway :)
...and sock drawers and fridge tops.
It amazes me how truly *out of order* my home is...my goodness...and I have yet to operate the wholesale cruelty and criminal behavior by our oh so physicals in perfect order = spiritual giant leaders in twi.
Seriously, I can`t help you cinderpelt. I know that two of my friends were thrown out as homos...one was married with many children, one married and had several...it was so absolutely dumb...but so terribly hurtfull.
It`d be my observation that discerning of spirits, if indeed is available, certainly couldn`t be operated like we were taught in twi...or we`d a sure recognised how many of our illustrious leaders were courting a few themselves.
It was just another tool to hurt people who didn`t bow down and kiss leaderships arse.
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Mike
How about discerning of GOOD spirits?
What about discerning of good angels in a situation?
What about discerning of pneuma hagion in a human being?
Why did so few of us focus on THESE things to discern with that manifestation, even though these possibilities were taught?
Why do so few grads even REMEMBER being taught that what gets discerned MIGHT be holy?
Why will most posters on this thread focus AWAY from the discernment of good spirits?
I know the answers to some of these questions. It's a little like a trivia quiz. What was predominant in the culture back then?
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rascal
Why??? Because we were taught wrong by a wolf who wished to remain undetected amongst God`s sheep would be my best guess.
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Mike
Focus away!
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rascal
Better to focus on the evidence at hand than to ignore and pretend that it just doesn`t exist because it might prove detrimental to ones pet theories :)
Thats called living in DENIAL!
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Tom Strange
Rascal!!! ...don't talk to "the teacher" like that! shame on you young lady!
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Watered Garden
I was never real good at memorizing, rules and regulations and 10 line definitions like those on the Adv. Class retemories, so I just asked God to let me know if I need to know anything about a situation or individual. I usually didn't and don't ask for revelation in any situation. I never saw a lot of Biblical truth in what was taught in the Adv. Class, as much as complicated examples extrapolated from scripture that was as much private interpretation as I could have come up with on my own.
That said, there are still times when being around an individual will give me a little icy shiver up my spine that has nothing to do with the air temperature around me. It seems to say "Be aware! This person has spiritual problems." No technicolor vision, no flashing lights, no little voice whispering in my brain. Just that little icy shiver. It started happening when I worked as a receptionist at a "residential facility for behaviorally-challenged adolescent females" populated by order of the court with some very scary young ladies. It still happens today, including when I hand out a sample at work sometimes. I suppose it's God's way of putting me on yellow alert. I just don't give it much thought. And I smashed the cookie jar that was full of pain and misinformation years ago.
I will say this, and I'm putting it in all capital letters because it is critically important: BE DAMN CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY TO PEOPLE OR ACCUSE OR DIAGNOSE THEM OF HAVING OR DOING!!!!! DON'T PREACH ANYTHING TO SHOW OFF HOW CLEVER OR SPIRITUAL YOU ARE! LIVES CAN DEPEND ON IT!
Ask Waysider if you doubt the above. He lost a friend secondary to some seed of the serpent BS some little Adv. Class grad spewed without thinking, and likely without having a clue what she was really talking about.
Get over the "VP said it, that settles it, I believe it" mindset. Read the Bible. Learn to think. Be compassionate. God gave us one mouth and two ears. Maybe He wants us to listen twice as much as we talk.
WG
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walking
Discerning of spririts. I'm not sure this is part of this topic. my understanding of discerning of spirits is the abilility of a heightened sense to detect the presence of evil. Sort of like you are in a situation or encounter someone and your spider sense starts tingling. not an ability to cast out the demons, the best way I can put it. Some times I get a real strange feeling about something that something just is'nt right and times most times it involves people and my having to make a descion. I would explain further but I might be off track.
Topics like this Is why I'm here.
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Outfield
I've had a few situations, as described above, where just out in the world people would stare at me in a way and make comments. One man at a homeless place started yelling at me for no reason and I looked him dead in the face and said, "I'm talking to this man, not you, so leave." And he did. The man I was standing with was amazed. I knew that was spiritual. But I wasn't led to "cast anything out." Another time this lady was completely out of her mind, punching everyone that came near her and I walked up to her, took her hand, and led her away speaking in tongues and she just walked like a zombie. People all clapped for me afterwards -- I said, it wasn't me, it was God.
I recall reading in one of the books -- it was Jesus who controlled the spirits with Words -- or something like that. I'll have to find it.
In Advanced Class we learned that you don't always cast out the spirit -- only God knows when it's time -- sometimes it's just for your knowledge.
But LCM definitely abused that, along with alot of other things.
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Mike
Watered Garden, you are totally correct in your APP-CAPS warning. I too saw many cheap tricks that shallow grads pulled talking about spirits in a non-edifying manner. We are to walk in love.
***
Now back to discerning of good spirits...
From my AC syllabus (with my red highlighting) under the category of “What It Is”:
“The manifestation of Discerning of Spirits is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by his revealing it to you the necessary information concerning the presence or non-presence of spirits and the identity of spirits present, and if evil , whether you may cast them out.”
I highlighted the word “may” because there are times when Father give us “no cookie” and that’s just as important to receive as a cookie is because it’s from FATHER.
I italicized the last phrase because I was instructed (at the second summer 1975 Emporia AC) to add it into my syllabus by hand. The syllabus I had received there was from earlier years. It seems this addition was necessary in 1975 (remember my trivia quiz in post #6 above?) in spite of something to the same effect THAT IS printed in my syllabus.
This can be seen in another line under “What it is” which reads regarding Discerning of Spirits:
“It is to discern, detect, be made aware of their presence, and to determine their identity, whether they be the spirits of the devil (diabolos), the holy spirit, or the spirit of man. If evil, whether they may be cast out (this requires the manifestation of Workings of Miracles).”
Like what the recent thread on cancer disclosed, we can see here that the AC teachings evolved somewhat in accordance with what we were ABLE to receive, and especially to what we were ABLE to remember and apply. In 1975 we needed to be reminded (due to our spiritual immaturity) that Discerning of Spirits was NOT supposed to revolve around devil spirits as much as it was. It seems we STILL need to be reminded of the good side of Discerning of Spirits.
***
Under the category of “What it is Not” we read:
“3. It is not the discerning of faults.”
So it was never supposed to be a tool for picking on personalities that bugged us. It seems this too was hardly ever read by many grads. We have a lot of catching up to do.
***
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
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Tom Strange
Instead... why don't YOU tell US???
(we're all here waiting with bated breath!)
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Mike
That's "baited" breath, Tom. ;)
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Watered Garden
What I was trying to convey is that many, many people took these definitions and made them a gospel of sorts. I don't even believe very much of what I learned in the Adv. Class any more, primarily because it can lead one to think s/he is so amazingly spiritual, so very in tune with God, that by memorizing a definition like the one Mike so graciously posted above, s/he can receive revelation from God every time s/he turns around. This can lead to individuals categorizing someone by their behavior, their looks, something they say or do and rattling off, not from scripture, but from a human-inspired definition of that individual's PERCEIVED problem. So it ends up that a person is labelled, "possessed" or "born of the seed of the serpent" when the poor fellow just needed some medication or a hug.
A biggie I do recall is a list someone put together of the characteristics of various categories of devil spirits. I think it was in the Athletes tape but also in the adv. class. So all you have to do is write down the characteristics and walk around looking for trouble. "Oh, that guy over there? He looks sad. I bet he's possessed with a spirit of depression." Or, "Oh, that guy is wearing a pink necktie. Bet he's got a homo spirit." See what I mean?
I am a screaming little bytch when my blood sugar gets out of control. If it's too high, I can snap your head off for nothing. Low enough, and I hallucinate, thrash and scream in my sleep. The latter is a precursor to death from acute hypoglycemia, and if my husband were of the mindset that every aberration in behavior is caused by devil spirit possession, I'd be in a very deep state of death right now.
What I'm trying to say is "Be very careful indeed with this stuff. It can do much more harm than good."
I would say off hand more people were hurt than helped with this informtion.
WG
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rascal
Amen Garden. My friends were devestated when thrown out of the ministry. Every one that they knew considered them the scum of the earth, loathsome despicable.
One gal`s innie family has children that their aunt and grandmother have never met because of fear from devil spirit contamniation.
So many many times *general spiritual suspiscion* was used to assault people whom a believer just personally didn`t like.
It was a horrible thing, if it truly operated as taught, no doubt we`d a all seen how spiritually depraved so many of our leaders were.
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Tom Strange
sorry for this folks...
...unless of course you'd like to 'spin it' that you were implying that I was trying to lure you into something which I wasn't... so I repeat:
Mike, why don't YOU tell US???
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Mike
Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.
Geoffrey Taylor 1933 "A Dash of Garlic"
Tom, you missed my "wink."
You are baiting me with your demand, as usual.
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Tom Strange
Nope... and not a demand...merely a request...
Would YOU please just TELL US your thoughts?
(Mike, are you the guy in "The Most Interesting Man in the World" commercials?)
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Mike
Tom, I actually don't know the answer to that question. I do think it's worth pondering.
I agree.
When we finally get the information correct and complete then it CAN be useful and helpful.
With partial or incorrect information much damage happens, especially when love is absent.
In the early 80’s I was directed to help a grad artist to come up with an illustrated poster of the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.”
Key #8 is “Do not tell all you know. Receive Word of Wisdom.”
To illustrate this we came up with a grad ministering to another who has a little devil standing on his shoulder, like in the cartoons. The ministering grad is looking lovingly at the face of the tormented one while reaching around his back to flick the devil off the shoulder from behind. The tormented one doesn’t even see this, because all the action takes place behind him. It looks to him like an one-arm hug is taking place.
The Word of Wisdom spoken out by the grad in a soft, kind voice is “Hey, don’t think of the devil so much. Just magnify the Word!”
The devil is sent flying by the mere flick of the grad’s finger. It was one of the best illustrations in the poster. It was much needed.
I'm trying to post a .tif file of this illustration but it's not working. Anyone know how?
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walking
This is in addition to my last post. The situations I was talking about people are involved but only for that situation on hand. It really has nothing to with that person in general just maybe I can put it like this, A force working through, maybe around or just present at the time. what happens is those moments that affect my actions or re-actions that bring consequences that I did not forsee weather good or bad. Sometimes the spidey sense says it's a God thing . It has nothing to do with the people or persons as an individuals. Just tools to bring about the events that will bring a change to my life or thought. Not all these situations leave me with a feeling of the presence of evil, like I stated before sometimes I feel it was a God thing that just happened. Something like that.
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Ham
I think if a person has to ask the other guy if he's possessed.. or what the specific problem is- maybe they are on the wrong track. That pretty much defined counselling in der vey, toward the end of the ninties..
"umm, figure out what your problem is (what spurt you got) and get back with us. then we may be able to get somewhere.."
Maybe some of you have had experiences otherwise, but other than the general evil nature of man in the world.. I haven't seen any specific empirical evidence that debil spurts, at least as defined by der vey, even exist.. even through my entire "tenure" in the organization.
Haven't seen them teleport loot out of a locked bank vault..
haven't seen them teleport ANYTHING anyway..
I think they manner the advanced class presented this whole subject.. was a kingdom of entities with varying levels of authority, but micromanaged. Yeah, loy talked about "organized chaos" and the like, but there in the syllabus you find all of these "specialized" spirits to choose from..
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Watered Garden
But why is this information, if it is such, even necessary, in either partial or complete form? I am into helping people, but my point that I guess I'm not making very clear, is that you just can't go around "discerning spirits" and help anyone other than yourself. And what kind of help is that? To prove to yourself that you are indeed a most exceedingly great and might person of God?
I think it's nice that people think they can do this, but I wonder if in a way it's not the power of suggestion kicking in. I mean, if someone is doing such and such, you can just pull out out the old AC syllabus, check the list, and plug in the name/category of a devil spirit that has to be causing it.
In the least I think these definitions limit God. And I think the whole damn AC was very dangerous.
I saw people come back from the AC with so many stupid ideas, it blows me away, the least of which is that Star Wars promoted the holy trinity. (Darth the father, Luke the son, and Yoda the holy spirit)
WG
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