Since I left twi 88-89, I have had almost no knowledge about any of this, but in the last month the desire to find out if there was any way to begin to contact some of the people I'd known had become extreme pressing. Led me here, and to other sites where these (for lack of better word" testemonies" where posted. Now caught up to speed (rollercoastercity) I can recognize by some details these people...and via my own experiences the truth of what these women say, not that they need my voice to add to their own. I also understand the wish to hang on to the good of it all. That pfal helped me turn it around and not self destruct...but then the darkside issues...I feel that I don't have much to add to the enlightened opinions of the better read than me, nor can I qoute any amazing bibical referenes at this point. Just wanted to confirm that the kind acts done by some make the actual horror of what was and is done even the more awful, and that whomsoever you are, I don't see you as an idol-worshipper.(Believe me I know from lurking about and reading almost every post on this deal)
love to stay and chat, but the spousal unit is lookin at me like the insanity must stop...not a former wafer, but former rc-we have such issues...thanks, I've not been called a sweet girl in a least a decade!
And you have shown more gentleness and compassion than most anyone else toward those who've had trouble comprehending that all wasn't sweetness and light in twi!
You not only wouldn't hurt a fly, you'd ask if it needed anything!
You have always been fair and even-handed to me. You've done your best to see both sides of the situation and to find the "coming together" point. I have the utmost respect for you.
It's good to talk about how information is "heard". I always feel like a freak when I share certain things because those certain things are freaky...ya know? I assume that nobody really believes me...because nobody ever really did...and because such things are just plain difficult for the mind to comprehend.
I was going to post this on the other thread but that thread was going in such wild directions I just didn't feel like it was worth my time. Your level honesty here feels more like a discussion.
Anyway, when I first came to an excult message board, my very first post was in defense of vpw. It was one of those, "He was a human being. He's dead and cannot defend himself. Get on with your lives. Apply the knowledge and forgive the man...yada...yada...yada..." posts.
VPW never did anything wrong to me and mine. In fact, he took my defense on more than one occasion...and on those occasions, had it not been for his involvement, things would have been a whole lot worse for me and my children. He was truly the loving father figure I so desperately wanted in my life.
PFAL was the answer to all of my life's problems. It gave me a way to control my mind. It gave me a way cope with panic attacks and ptsd episodes. It gave me a reason to quit trying to kill myself. It taught me that I was worthy of something.
So all of the allegations I was reading on the message board were just plain unbelievable to me. Not only had I idealized vpw, I hated wc folks because I fully believed that it was the wc folks who screwed up vpw's beloved ministry. (I even wrote many letters to vpw begging him to do away with wc.) It seemed that all of the allegations being made on the message board were wc folks. I had seen what wc had done in the field...and I believed that they would stoop to anything to keep themselves blameless...including lying about vpw.
Posters on that board tried to point me to Juedes site. Well...Juedes is trinitarian...which automatically made him a "devil spirit infested" liar in my mind.
Nothing changed my mind until I got to know a poster by the handle of MIMITATE.
One of her posts hit me in the gut so hard that I could no longer deny the reality of vpw's lecherous appetite.
I emailed her. She was very kind and patient with me. For about 2 years she and I discussed many things via private email. Everything she told me rang true to what I knew was the "typical" story of sexual abuse perpetrators and victims.
She also knew "Marsha" personally...and shared with me things that she had eye-witnessed. The way she said these things...the feelings she described...the cunning manipulations she and others she knew were subject to...the actual scenarios she described...these things were very familiar to me from my childhood. I knew that she was not lying to me.
But I still felt it was all very isolated...I still didn't grasp the enormity of it all.
It was very difficult for me to reconcile in my mind that vpw or lcm were the monsters people were making them out to be...because the majority of the people who were making the accusations seemed to be just as monstrous. I just could not accept that things were not being purposefully blown way out of proportion.
Then ExC started sharing her experiences. There was no doubt in my mind that ExC was telling the truth.
It took GSCI to come along before I began to trust that the majority of the stories had any validity.
People seemed to begin to get more honest on GSCI.
And I had grown. And others had grown. It just seemed that more of the honesty of the situation was coming out...less of the reactionary feelings.
Now here on GSCII there's a marked determination to actually explore what happened...look at things from all sides...define the lines in the sand that were always moving in twi...take a non-twi-influenced look at things.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the progression from trance.chat to WayDale to GSCI and now GSCII is one of growth...for me and for everyone else...and that it took that growth to open my eyes.
Amen to what Linda said. I went thru the same thought processes in the same way and came to the same conclusions in due time.
It takes a while to sort things out. And anyone who takes the words of a total stranger without consideration is likely to suffer many foolish things in this life. Give new folks time to sort things out.
Oh, PS, CW. I don't think you're a freak. I think you had the misfortune to be around some of the worst of the worst "leadership" ever to bark orders, humiliate people, and misuse their positions in twi.
I thank God that you've been able to regain your voice and self-confidence after all you went through!
I still check in regularly, but health problems tend to rob me of the mental and physical energy necessary to post as I'd like.
I always love reading your posts, you are intelligent, balanced, thoughtful and caring. You help to keep the far left and the far right, the over the top, and slithering under the bottom types from falling off the four corners of the earth. :D-->
Raf, thanks. I've been thinking about this for a long time and waiting till I could say what I wanted to say without hurting anyone. I hope I haven't, because that sure wasn't my intent.
Dabob: I'm praying for your health to improve. I've got a couple chronic issues of my own going on, so I surely do understand!! I want to be in the front of the line when the new bodies are handed out!!! :D-->
Speaking in general, I've said this before and I'll keep saying it- it blows my mind when people tolerate behavior in VPW that they would not even begin to tolerate in themselves, a spouse , a friend, coworker , or pastor.
Unfortunately this behavior exists and I have
friends in my area who still work very hard to
protect their investment in TWI by claiming that
stories of VPW's abuse were exaggerated and even
that victims were somehow responsible for it.
The phenomenon of VPW worship and idoaltry does
exist partly in fact because people like Stacey Bowen said things like "you don't have JC around
for an example but you do have Doctor Weirwille".
Personally I think VPW was scum even in the so called "good ole days" though I realize
I used to say, taking pfal was one of the best decisions I ever made. I still say that. It was something that the 17 year old, scared and lost me needed. Although I never met vpw, I respected him and called him Dr. my 21 years in.
Then along came Waydale. WHAM!! I was up for two days reading without any sleep. Many of the questions I always had were answered and lots of missed pieces fell into place. I was incredulous at the sexual abuse. I never had a clue, not one freaking clue that any of that stuff was going on. Sure I had a few BC's that tried to get into my pants but I just thought that was their personal issue, I didn't know it was part of a bigger picture that I was blessedly unaware of.
It has taken several years and lots of reading to understand and appreciate the pain many women went through and the manipulation and coercion by vpw and craig. It was easier to believe about craig because he was more recent and he had put me through pain by ruining twi with his rigid and hateful policies and the extortion of a percentage of my paycheck. I always thought he was an a$$hole. But vpw? Could it be that the sexual revolution makes his actions more understandable? Or that there were woman that offered sex to him?
Years later I know that it doesn't matter, there is no excuse for betraying the trust of a young gullible beautiful young lady who just wants to be her best for God. If vpw considered himself to be the 'father in the word' then it was not just sexual abuse it was incest and he ruined the innocence of young ladies for his own gratification.
I have many good memories of my time in twi, especially the years in which vpw was still alive and running the show. Amazing that so much good could come through a human being as flawed as vpw.
What makes me bristle is when I read challenges to these "testimonials." If someone is really interested in the truth, they will just keep reading and absorbing and make up their own mind.
I can SO relate to what you are saying. As I've stated before, I was also the recipient of VP's kindness. And it took me awhile to put things together as well. And sheesh, I WAS THERE.
The thing that gets my goat is exactly what diazbro mentioned. There are exway people out there, who knew/know about all the abuses and cover ups, even participated in it all, yet are STILL elevating VP as MOG, and all his teachings as "the rightly-divided truth."
I have no problem whatsoever calling them idolaters. And yes, I do have a problem with those that credit VP as the source of the good that existed in TWI, even though they KNOW of the monstrous acts he committed. People who didn't/don't know are a different story altogether.
Geeze, I've been called plenty of names in these forums and on Waydale, and had posters say some pretty despicable things to me personally. But so what? To me, it's worth the contention and conflict and the unpleasantness if it helps someone resolve things about their past involvement. Maybe others don't feel the same way, but that's totally their own perogative. I do believe in judging actions and discerning truth from lies, good actions from evil actions, etc.
I don't mean to get preachy, I just feel very strongly about exposing the evil of TWI.
I wrestled with a number of things after we left, and it didn't really hit me right away. Then it did - Mr. VPW would never be allowed to pastor, teach, or function in a trusted position anywhere else with all of this going on, there'd be inquiry, he'd be confronted, reproved, taught, corrected and if that didn't work whatever else did to protect people. If it were even just your good ol' garden variety friendly corporate takeover, he and all the rest closely associated with him would be sacked and retired out. Out with the old, in with something new or at least different.
It doesn't mean anything good or bad ever did or didn't come out of the Way, to me. Good can come out of the worst situations as well as the best. With the Way, the well is tainted, put up a "beware" sign and go somewhere else.
This may sound like I'm a creep, but it seems to me that anyone willing to fully accept and pass on all of this abuse under the banner of "we all sin, none are perfect, at least zabba zabba zabba" have low standards.
If we're all born in sin we will all likely do some nasty things in our lives if we haven't already. But Paul gives some hefty qualifications for a person who wants to be recognized as a person of service to the church and work for The Pastor, someone who has shown themselves faithful. It's not for people who can't keep their pants zipped or who have serious problems following the teachings of Christ. That's just the way it is I believe and there's no tongue clucking condemnation to anyone who doesn't cut it. If you don't, step down, step out, whatever but you can't be allowed to work in that capacity.
When I look back to even the earliest years I was in the Way, I see there were good people throughout, faith, good times, hard work. When you have that kind of environment, good can come out of it. The fact that VP pi$$ed his part away doesn't mean the Party stopped. It was going on around him all the time.
P.S. I never hit Trancenet till it was over and a read only site, but when I ran across WayDale it really did start to pull things together for me that I'd suspected might exist but only in theory after leaving. It was like a slow brew process. I know some people think your butt will fall off or something if you visit GS. Really folks, it won't. I've got lots of butt left, trust me.
I think that another part of the equation is that people hate to think they got hoodwinked. If they can accept that Wierwille lied, plagiarized, and abused, then the next step would be to admit that he had fooled them into thinking of him as the Teacher, the MOG, our "father in the Word."
I would only suggest that we WERE fooled -- but by an expert, so we should not be embarrassed. A narcissist's whole existence is consumed with creating and maintaining a facade for people to admire. We were conned because we were good people who wanted to be our best for God, and wanted to love others with a pure heart. We wanted to be forgiving. These are the exact characteristics that a narcissist looks for to exploit in others.
The irony is, that we were fooled because we were exactly what TWI SHOULD have stood for, and we were the major reason why TWI was as sweet as it was in many locales.
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excathedra
i love you linzee and i know you know that and it's mutual
:)-->
i would never want to hurt anyone here
?
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andreatheflorist
Since I left twi 88-89, I have had almost no knowledge about any of this, but in the last month the desire to find out if there was any way to begin to contact some of the people I'd known had become extreme pressing. Led me here, and to other sites where these (for lack of better word" testemonies" where posted. Now caught up to speed (rollercoastercity) I can recognize by some details these people...and via my own experiences the truth of what these women say, not that they need my voice to add to their own. I also understand the wish to hang on to the good of it all. That pfal helped me turn it around and not self destruct...but then the darkside issues...I feel that I don't have much to add to the enlightened opinions of the better read than me, nor can I qoute any amazing bibical referenes at this point. Just wanted to confirm that the kind acts done by some make the actual horror of what was and is done even the more awful, and that whomsoever you are, I don't see you as an idol-worshipper.(Believe me I know from lurking about and reading almost every post on this deal)
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excathedra
well hi you sweet girl
it's always been very hard for me, knowing that i learned many good things, but the teacher broke my heart (for a while)
mwah (an internet kiss)
:)-->
?
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andreatheflorist
love to stay and chat, but the spousal unit is lookin at me like the insanity must stop...not a former wafer, but former rc-we have such issues...thanks, I've not been called a sweet girl in a least a decade!
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wyteduv58
sweetgirl, sweetgirl, sweetgirl
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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wyteduv58
and that goes for you too exxie my dear
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Linda Z
You betcha it's mutual, my sweet excathie.
And you have shown more gentleness and compassion than most anyone else toward those who've had trouble comprehending that all wasn't sweetness and light in twi!
You not only wouldn't hurt a fly, you'd ask if it needed anything!
xoxo
linzee
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Linda Z
andrea, welcome to GS, you sweet girl! Come back when you can stay longer.
And dovey, you're a sweet girl too!
Linda Z
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CoolWaters
Linda Z,
You have always been fair and even-handed to me. You've done your best to see both sides of the situation and to find the "coming together" point. I have the utmost respect for you.
It's good to talk about how information is "heard". I always feel like a freak when I share certain things because those certain things are freaky...ya know? I assume that nobody really believes me...because nobody ever really did...and because such things are just plain difficult for the mind to comprehend.
I was going to post this on the other thread but that thread was going in such wild directions I just didn't feel like it was worth my time. Your level honesty here feels more like a discussion.
Anyway, when I first came to an excult message board, my very first post was in defense of vpw. It was one of those, "He was a human being. He's dead and cannot defend himself. Get on with your lives. Apply the knowledge and forgive the man...yada...yada...yada..." posts.
VPW never did anything wrong to me and mine. In fact, he took my defense on more than one occasion...and on those occasions, had it not been for his involvement, things would have been a whole lot worse for me and my children. He was truly the loving father figure I so desperately wanted in my life.
PFAL was the answer to all of my life's problems. It gave me a way to control my mind. It gave me a way cope with panic attacks and ptsd episodes. It gave me a reason to quit trying to kill myself. It taught me that I was worthy of something.
So all of the allegations I was reading on the message board were just plain unbelievable to me. Not only had I idealized vpw, I hated wc folks because I fully believed that it was the wc folks who screwed up vpw's beloved ministry. (I even wrote many letters to vpw begging him to do away with wc.) It seemed that all of the allegations being made on the message board were wc folks. I had seen what wc had done in the field...and I believed that they would stoop to anything to keep themselves blameless...including lying about vpw.
Posters on that board tried to point me to Juedes site. Well...Juedes is trinitarian...which automatically made him a "devil spirit infested" liar in my mind.
Nothing changed my mind until I got to know a poster by the handle of MIMITATE.
One of her posts hit me in the gut so hard that I could no longer deny the reality of vpw's lecherous appetite.
I emailed her. She was very kind and patient with me. For about 2 years she and I discussed many things via private email. Everything she told me rang true to what I knew was the "typical" story of sexual abuse perpetrators and victims.
She also knew "Marsha" personally...and shared with me things that she had eye-witnessed. The way she said these things...the feelings she described...the cunning manipulations she and others she knew were subject to...the actual scenarios she described...these things were very familiar to me from my childhood. I knew that she was not lying to me.
But I still felt it was all very isolated...I still didn't grasp the enormity of it all.
It was very difficult for me to reconcile in my mind that vpw or lcm were the monsters people were making them out to be...because the majority of the people who were making the accusations seemed to be just as monstrous. I just could not accept that things were not being purposefully blown way out of proportion.
Then ExC started sharing her experiences. There was no doubt in my mind that ExC was telling the truth.
It took GSCI to come along before I began to trust that the majority of the stories had any validity.
People seemed to begin to get more honest on GSCI.
And I had grown. And others had grown. It just seemed that more of the honesty of the situation was coming out...less of the reactionary feelings.
Now here on GSCII there's a marked determination to actually explore what happened...look at things from all sides...define the lines in the sand that were always moving in twi...take a non-twi-influenced look at things.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the progression from trance.chat to WayDale to GSCI and now GSCII is one of growth...for me and for everyone else...and that it took that growth to open my eyes.
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dabobbada
Amen to what Linda said. I went thru the same thought processes in the same way and came to the same conclusions in due time.
It takes a while to sort things out. And anyone who takes the words of a total stranger without consideration is likely to suffer many foolish things in this life. Give new folks time to sort things out.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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Linda Z
CW, good post, and thanks for the compliment.
Dabobbada, nice to see you around here! I've missed you!
Linda Z
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Linda Z
Oh, PS, CW. I don't think you're a freak. I think you had the misfortune to be around some of the worst of the worst "leadership" ever to bark orders, humiliate people, and misuse their positions in twi.
I thank God that you've been able to regain your voice and self-confidence after all you went through!
Linda Z
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CoolWaters
TYVM {{{{{Linda}}}}}. That means a whole lot to me.
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Raf
Linda Z,
Your post should be required reading at Greasespot 101.
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dabobbada
Linda,
I kind of miss me too!
:D-->
I still check in regularly, but health problems tend to rob me of the mental and physical energy necessary to post as I'd like.
I always love reading your posts, you are intelligent, balanced, thoughtful and caring. You help to keep the far left and the far right, the over the top, and slithering under the bottom types from falling off the four corners of the earth.
:D-->
Keep up the good work!
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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Linda Z
CW, thanks for the hugs...back at ya!!
Raf, thanks. I've been thinking about this for a long time and waiting till I could say what I wanted to say without hurting anyone. I hope I haven't, because that sure wasn't my intent.
Dabob: I'm praying for your health to improve. I've got a couple chronic issues of my own going on, so I surely do understand!! I want to be in the front of the line when the new bodies are handed out!!!
:D-->
Love to all,
Linda
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diazbro
Speaking in general, I've said this before and I'll keep saying it- it blows my mind when people tolerate behavior in VPW that they would not even begin to tolerate in themselves, a spouse , a friend, coworker , or pastor.
Unfortunately this behavior exists and I have
friends in my area who still work very hard to
protect their investment in TWI by claiming that
stories of VPW's abuse were exaggerated and even
that victims were somehow responsible for it.
The phenomenon of VPW worship and idoaltry does
exist partly in fact because people like Stacey Bowen said things like "you don't have JC around
for an example but you do have Doctor Weirwille".
Personally I think VPW was scum even in the so called "good ole days" though I realize
that not everyone feels that way. thats fine.
This isn't TWI so no one is obligated to feel
as another.
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Hopefull
Wonderful post, Linda.
I used to say, taking pfal was one of the best decisions I ever made. I still say that. It was something that the 17 year old, scared and lost me needed. Although I never met vpw, I respected him and called him Dr. my 21 years in.
Then along came Waydale. WHAM!! I was up for two days reading without any sleep. Many of the questions I always had were answered and lots of missed pieces fell into place. I was incredulous at the sexual abuse. I never had a clue, not one freaking clue that any of that stuff was going on. Sure I had a few BC's that tried to get into my pants but I just thought that was their personal issue, I didn't know it was part of a bigger picture that I was blessedly unaware of.
It has taken several years and lots of reading to understand and appreciate the pain many women went through and the manipulation and coercion by vpw and craig. It was easier to believe about craig because he was more recent and he had put me through pain by ruining twi with his rigid and hateful policies and the extortion of a percentage of my paycheck. I always thought he was an a$$hole. But vpw? Could it be that the sexual revolution makes his actions more understandable? Or that there were woman that offered sex to him?
Years later I know that it doesn't matter, there is no excuse for betraying the trust of a young gullible beautiful young lady who just wants to be her best for God. If vpw considered himself to be the 'father in the word' then it was not just sexual abuse it was incest and he ruined the innocence of young ladies for his own gratification.
I have many good memories of my time in twi, especially the years in which vpw was still alive and running the show. Amazing that so much good could come through a human being as flawed as vpw.
What makes me bristle is when I read challenges to these "testimonials." If someone is really interested in the truth, they will just keep reading and absorbing and make up their own mind.
Thanks for that great post, Linda.
"If The Way hates it, it has to be Good."
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah, what Linda Z said...
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ex10
Linda,
I can SO relate to what you are saying. As I've stated before, I was also the recipient of VP's kindness. And it took me awhile to put things together as well. And sheesh, I WAS THERE.
The thing that gets my goat is exactly what diazbro mentioned. There are exway people out there, who knew/know about all the abuses and cover ups, even participated in it all, yet are STILL elevating VP as MOG, and all his teachings as "the rightly-divided truth."
I have no problem whatsoever calling them idolaters. And yes, I do have a problem with those that credit VP as the source of the good that existed in TWI, even though they KNOW of the monstrous acts he committed. People who didn't/don't know are a different story altogether.
Geeze, I've been called plenty of names in these forums and on Waydale, and had posters say some pretty despicable things to me personally. But so what? To me, it's worth the contention and conflict and the unpleasantness if it helps someone resolve things about their past involvement. Maybe others don't feel the same way, but that's totally their own perogative. I do believe in judging actions and discerning truth from lies, good actions from evil actions, etc.
I don't mean to get preachy, I just feel very strongly about exposing the evil of TWI.
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socks
Indeed, fine people.
I wrestled with a number of things after we left, and it didn't really hit me right away. Then it did - Mr. VPW would never be allowed to pastor, teach, or function in a trusted position anywhere else with all of this going on, there'd be inquiry, he'd be confronted, reproved, taught, corrected and if that didn't work whatever else did to protect people. If it were even just your good ol' garden variety friendly corporate takeover, he and all the rest closely associated with him would be sacked and retired out. Out with the old, in with something new or at least different.
It doesn't mean anything good or bad ever did or didn't come out of the Way, to me. Good can come out of the worst situations as well as the best. With the Way, the well is tainted, put up a "beware" sign and go somewhere else.
This may sound like I'm a creep, but it seems to me that anyone willing to fully accept and pass on all of this abuse under the banner of "we all sin, none are perfect, at least zabba zabba zabba" have low standards.
If we're all born in sin we will all likely do some nasty things in our lives if we haven't already. But Paul gives some hefty qualifications for a person who wants to be recognized as a person of service to the church and work for The Pastor, someone who has shown themselves faithful. It's not for people who can't keep their pants zipped or who have serious problems following the teachings of Christ. That's just the way it is I believe and there's no tongue clucking condemnation to anyone who doesn't cut it. If you don't, step down, step out, whatever but you can't be allowed to work in that capacity.
When I look back to even the earliest years I was in the Way, I see there were good people throughout, faith, good times, hard work. When you have that kind of environment, good can come out of it. The fact that VP pi$$ed his part away doesn't mean the Party stopped. It was going on around him all the time.
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
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socks
P.S. I never hit Trancenet till it was over and a read only site, but when I ran across WayDale it really did start to pull things together for me that I'd suspected might exist but only in theory after leaving. It was like a slow brew process. I know some people think your butt will fall off or something if you visit GS. Really folks, it won't. I've got lots of butt left, trust me.
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
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shazdancer
Dear Linda,
I think that another part of the equation is that people hate to think they got hoodwinked. If they can accept that Wierwille lied, plagiarized, and abused, then the next step would be to admit that he had fooled them into thinking of him as the Teacher, the MOG, our "father in the Word."
I would only suggest that we WERE fooled -- but by an expert, so we should not be embarrassed. A narcissist's whole existence is consumed with creating and maintaining a facade for people to admire. We were conned because we were good people who wanted to be our best for God, and wanted to love others with a pure heart. We wanted to be forgiving. These are the exact characteristics that a narcissist looks for to exploit in others.
The irony is, that we were fooled because we were exactly what TWI SHOULD have stood for, and we were the major reason why TWI was as sweet as it was in many locales.
Regards,
Shaz
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johniam
Linda: I couldn't agree more.
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