I take it you didn't like my response to your "honest" question.
Btw -- What do you consider a dishonest question to be?
I posed an honest question and not a smart-arsed, rhetorical, question. (That is ALWAYS what I mean when I say "honest question." I say that to eliminate any doubt, because I know how things here in cyber-space get misinterpreted.
First of all, I felt that your answer was - an answer. I had no "like or dislike" about it. I asked "Who gets the glory if TWI is not exposed?" (A reverse of the question you posed to me, BTW.)
You wrote:
This is ignoring and/or focusing on everything that's wrong with TWI. Iow -- you've concluded that nothing good can come out of TWI and therefore people should be warned against them. We've been over this before - If God is leading people to TWI then either God sees some redeeming qualities and purpose for TWI or God is evil.
I have made no such conclusion. I feel strongly that IF a person is looking for more information, they should be able to find it. Many folks have written over the years about how they "had a feeling" that something was awry, but couldn't put the pieces together. It is possible that there are people that are looking to understand more than just the party line.
I have no evidence that God is leading people to TWI. If He is leading anyone to TWI, then I doubt I can stand in His way.
Of course, there is the inverse of your statement: If the Devil is leading people to TWI then either the Devil sees some redeeming qualities for TWI - that suit his purposes.
We haven't even addressed IF God is leading people AWAY from TWI...
Now for the statement that I really felt was bait more than anything else:
On the subject of Paw getting glory. I am thankful for the opportunity to come here and banter with everyone. I've reconnected with some old friends and made some new friends. I can't speak for anyone else here - but in my book, that isn't "giving Glory."
Perhaps, what I'd like to read from you is a post where you actually say something on your own instead of cut up someone else's post into bite-size pieces and then take little more than sound bites with very little substance to respond.
I can`t see God leading people into bondage...maybe the young women aren`t being drugged and rapes any more..with the passing of vp...and Geer leaving.....Maybe members are not being bullied into threesomes by threats of m&a and job loss held over their heads with craig since the law suits outted him....HOWEVER.....twi is still being run by the same people whom knowingly (according to court documents) allowed this to happen and supported the perpetrators regardless.....the ministry still clings to the doctrine that made this behavior excusable ....
No I have to say that I don`t believe for a second that God would lead anybody into twi...
I HAVE however seen ample evidence of people being led out by the tens of thousands in the last decade....shrug
Of course you can't. That would make God evil. That can't be true, so who should we blame? I know -- let's blame other people.
maybe the young women aren`t being drugged and rapes any more..with the passing of vp...and Geer leaving.....
Hmm . . . are you sure you're not leaving anyone else out. How 'bout Mrs. Wierwille. Either she was as blind as a bat or just as evil as VP and Geer for not exposing them for what they were. Or maybe she loved VP more than she loved God.
Maybe members are not being bullied into threesomes by threats of m&a and job loss held over their heads with craig since the law suits outted him
Sheesh! I'll tell ya what. I remember hearing a grad of the (new and improved version) of the Advance Class say: "There's nothing wrong with pornography." In response I told her: "If that is what you're being taught in the new Advance class, I want no part of it." Now, I can't say for sure that's what was being taught ('cause I never took it) but if I did sit through it and that's clearly what was being taught guess what -- I would have a decision to make -- Do I want to be a part of a ministry that teaches such garbage? The answer would be -- NO! I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be stupid enuf or too weak to fall for such crap. But then, it was an Advance Class grad I was speaking to.
My point is: Where is your head at if you can't see that having threesomes is wrong?
....HOWEVER.....twi is still being run by the same people whom knowingly (according to court documents) allowed this to happen and supported the perpetrators regardless.....the ministry still clings to the doctrine that made this behavior excusable ....
Well, I don't know where this doctrine came from. It certainly didn't come from the Word I knew. If people weren't able to separate truth from error, perhaps they needed to spend more time studying the Bible.
No I have to say that I don`t believe for a second that God would lead anybody into twi...
Ok.
I HAVE however seen ample evidence of people being led out by the tens of thousands in the last decade....shrug
Well, Paul had the same problem. All Asia Minor were led away from his doctrine also. Maybe his "thorn in the flesh" was sexual perversion afterall contrary to what VP said in PFAL.
”There isn’t one person on this forum that can say God did or did not lead anyone into Twi. I don’t care what senses arguments a person gives. Does God check in with you? Disclose His heart and will to you? His purposes? I doubt it. Whether you know it not, you just slapped God Almighty in the face. I’m starting to wonder if you even care…
Actually Spot, I can and did say it regarding myself in this thread somewhere. I want to point that out because I do think it is at the very least entirely likely god led me to TWI. I did receive some wonderful healing of the heart and mind during my early days with TWI. I think God also let me know when it was time to leave and my mistake was in not listening to that still small voice at that time. I have also said I could not speak for anyone else and whether or not they were led to TWI.
And none of the above is meant as a defense for VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups who played a role in hurting the men and women who were involved with TWI. I never met VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups. The credit for healing I received during those early days of TWI goes to God, then to those people who were in my fellowship who were so loving and patient with me, and I get some of the credit too, because I did the work. :)
I think Mrs. W was trapped. I think that she was his first victim. I think that she was bound by the tennents of her generation and culture to make the best of a bad situation.
I think that she was bullied and brow beaten.
She wasn`t the one drugging and raping young girls...She had a tough miserable life...but it seemed to me that she tried very hard to be a blessing.
Damned right I will blame the people who perpetrated these crimes....I certainly do not believe that God would lead us to them to be used and thrown away like so much trash.
People always have two choices....twi leaders chose to embrace evil to sate the lusts of their bellies.
Threesomes wrong ???..oh hayal yeah....but when the alternative is m&a ...losing your spouse, your family members all of your friends....when the scriptures can be twisted to make it appear alright....that all things are lawfull...that disobediance to the mog tantamount to disobediance to God...your choices appear limited.
Study the bible?? yeah..we did a lot of that...but with the flawed foundation and faulty tools that they provided.
Don`t know about paul...I am talking about a man who by every known method described in the scriptures...was clearly a man of the flesh, with no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Larry it seems like you being such a fan of the scriptures, you would take a look at what they say about the guys that do what vpw did.
Sometimes I think that people don`t want to face the truth about twi and vpw because in facing the truth ...they are unable to face what implications that will hold for themselves. :(
Far nicer to feel like we were God`s elite on a noble mission....than the unwitting tools of unscrupulous men,
I think Mrs. W was trapped. I think that she was his first victim. I think that she was bound by the tennents of her generation and culture to make the best of a bad situation.
I think that she was bullied and brow beaten.
Of course that's what you would think. What else would explain why Mrs. W stayed with him and TWI until her death.
She wasn`t the one drugging and raping young girls...She had a tough miserable life...but it seemed to me that she tried very hard to be a blessing.
More conjecture. I love it! I take it you have first-hand knowledge that she was miserable.
Damned right I will blame the people who perpetrated these crimes....I certainly do not believe that God would lead us to them to be used and thrown away like so much trash.
I know. It's much easier to blame other people then to take personal responsibility.
People always have two choices....twi leaders chose to embrace evil to sate the lusts of their bellies.
And people who know the Bible would also know that such behavior is evil. I see only two choices a person seeing such evil can make. Give in to the evil or stand against it. Would you like to blame other people for the choice you made?
Threesomes wrong ???..oh hayal yeah....but when the alternative is m&a ...losing your spouse, your family members all of your friends....when the scriptures can be twisted to make it appear alright....that all things are lawfull...that disobediance to the mog tantamount to disobediance to God...your choices appear limited.
Where is obedience to God in any of this? Like Peter said: Are we to obey men, rather than God judge ye?
Study the bible?? yeah..we did a lot of that...but with the flawed foundation and faulty tools that they provided.
Well, here's the problem. I had the same foundation and so-called "faulty tools" at my disposal that you had. And with those tools at my disposal I'm able to discern truth from error. How is it possible that I could see that threesomes is wrong and yet others having the same "faulty tools" are unable to see it?
Don`t know about paul...I am talking about a man who by every known method described in the scriptures...was clearly a man of the flesh, with no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Well, God will decide that on Judgment Day. Has He told you something He hasn't told me? :)
Larry it seems like you being such a fan of the scriptures, you would take a look at what they say about the guys that do what vpw did.
I know what the scriptures say but, what I don't know is what you say is true. I'm sure you believe it is and that's fine. Some people don't believe God exists and have good reasons for their unbelief. I only have my own personal experience to go by and my experience says -- God exists. I don't expect you to believe me just because of my personal experience. Why would you expect me to believe your personal experience?
Sometimes I think that people don`t want to face the truth about twi and vpw because in facing the truth ...they are unable to face what implications that will hold for themselves. :(
Sometimes.
Far nicer to feel like we were God`s elite on a noble mission....than the unwitting tools of unscrupulous men,
Sure.
BTW Abi -- I really liked your response above this.
You cannot handle the information Larry, so you have to label it conjecture.
You are unable to accept the truth, so you try to label those who present it as somehow substandard or unreliable.
It doesn`t mean that the events didn`t happen, it doesn`t mean that these men were not evil...it simply means that you cannot handle the truth...shrug
You aren`t going to convince many that the stenche filled darkness of life imprisoned in twi is anything desirable once someone tastes the fresh air of freedom out from under the confines of evil men, nor will many be willing to replace the shackles of false dogma ..once freed and experiencing the life.
Oh, she didn't stay with twi until her death. She was DUMPED in her old age..
snip
This, Mr. Hamm, is a good example of why I think it is a good idea for people to take some time when first coming to GSC to look at some of the background information and editorials BEFORE jumping right into the discussions.
There is also a whole thread that discusses this subject of Dottsie staying with VP.
Sorry, didn't mean to stray from the initial premise of the thread," False prophet or---------------?"
You cannot handle the information Larry, so you have to label it conjecture.
:) This is also conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what I'm capable of handling but, because I question your opinions and point out what I consider conjecture (as opposed to verifiable facts) you find it necessary to opine from that that I can't handle information. My dear, it's obvious from this that it's YOU that can't handle having someone challenge your opinions.
You are unable to accept the truth, so you try to label those who present it as somehow substandard or unreliable.
Again, conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what "truth" I've been exposed to and my capacity to handle it. "Truth" of the sort that most people having to face would devastate their lives. I faced it; accepted it for what it was; and came out on the other side victorious. And I thank God for walking me through that valley of the shadow of death.
I label rumors -- rumors. I label hearsay -- hearsay. I label facts -- facts. And finally I label conjectures people make from facts -- conjectures. Sorry, if that bothers you and I would say -- You'll get over it. -- but, that would just be a conjectural statement on my part.
It doesn`t mean that the events didn`t happen, it doesn`t mean that these men were not evil...it simply means that you cannot handle the truth...shrug
Sure it doesn't. But the opposite is also true. Even if I couldn't handle the information it doesn't mean the information is true.
You aren`t going to convince many that the stenche filled darkness of life imprisoned in twi is anything desirable once someone tastes the fresh air of freedom out from under the confines of evil men, nor will many be willing to replace the shackles of false dogma ..once freed and experiencing the life.
:) I don't concern myself with convincing anyone. That's way too frustrating of a mental exercise. It's much more peaceable to just present my thoughts and opinions and leave it up to the individual to convince themselves.
Now here's my point that you missed previously: If I were to share with you all of my life's experiences (even those during my tenure with TWI) why should you believe I'm being truthful with you? You don't know me but, even if you did -- unless you walked with me during those times how would you really know I was telling you the truth? People are capable of getting to the point of believing their own lies. Of convincing themselves that what they think is actually the truth. It's a survival instinct. Bottom line -- I wouldn't expect you to believe me -- why do you expect me to believe you?
Your house is built on sand buddy.
:) Well, darling, you don't strike me as the "big bad wolf" capable of huffing and puffing and blowing my house down. Where you see little itsy pebbles, I see rocks. But, if you want to keep blowing away -- blow away. I don't mind the breeze.
There is also a whole thread that discusses this subject of Dottsie staying with VP.
Sorry, didn't mean to stray from the initial premise of the thread," False prophet or---------------?"
Yeah.. but it does have a little relevance. They didn't hold the words and threats of this "prophet" or "man of gawwd", regarding the treatment of his wife with much regard, did they? "Gawwwd have mercy on ya if you don't take care of Dotsie right.."
They went to the lawyers, weasled their way out, citing evey legal reason to put her out..
Prophet? Even "his own" people disagree, if not in words, in action..
This, Mr. Hamm, is a good example of why I think it is a good idea for people to take some time when first coming to GSC to look at some of the background information and editorials BEFORE jumping right into the discussions.
There is also a whole thread that discusses this subject of Dottsie staying with VP.
Sorry, didn't mean to stray from the initial premise of the thread," False prophet or---------------?"
:) Oh, I've read some snippets here and there. I read where someone from TWI wrote an open letter to GS (although the link to that letter doesn't work) concerning the care of Mrs. W and stated the accusations were lies. Of course, seeing how it was a representative of TWI -- naturally we are safe to assume that he was lying -- right?
A whole thread discussing the subject of why Mrs. W stayed with VP is just that -- a discussion. A discussion does not a truth make. But a discussion can make a belief that it's true.
Oh, I've read some snippets here and there. I read where someone from TWI wrote an open letter to GS (although the link to that letter doesn't work) concerning the care of Mrs. W and stated the accusations were lies. Of course, seeing how it was a representative of TWI -- naturally we are safe to assume that he was lying -- right?
In regards to the "false prophet".. like father, like son..
I think it is pretty safe to assume falsehood. "we're PREVAILING.." "We inform our people about EVERYTHING, soups to nuts.." "It was a one time affair.."
practically everything that came out of the P.R. "man's" mouth was a falsehood, or extreme exaggeration.. and many followers didn't even know about the lawsuits and such, until they were blindsided here.
"we're taking GOOD CARE of the mrs.."
"it was a FAMILY DECISION.."
jp pipes up.. "hey, why didn't they ask ME???"
I still think this isn't too far off the beaten path as regards to false prophets. Like vic, his "leaders" were pretty well adept in perpetrating falsehood. I believe this is one of the hallmarks of a false prophet.
Mrs. W was miserable with VP. She shed many a tear with some corps ladies, which has been shared here. There have been several threads on this over the years.
At VP's funeral, when my relatives went up to Mrs. W to give their sympathies (whom she had known for years were close to), she looked at them and said, "he was a mean man" - they were speechless. What do you say to that at a funeral???
Great epithet for hubby.
She wasn't sad to see him go, that's for sure.
We also know his son couldn't stand him either. I knew D quite well, he never hid his contempt for his father.
I have neither the time nor the patience to cut and paste the various quotes I'm about to address - but they are within the last few posts, so I trust this will still be easy to follow.
I hear what Larry is saying. I also hear what Rascal is saying. I'd like to address something in the middle that comes from some personal experience, not TWI related. Concerning these two quotes from Larry:
And people who know the Bible would also know that such behavior is evil. I see only two choices a person seeing such evil can make. Give in to the evil or stand against it. Would you like to blame other people for the choice you made?
Well, here's the problem. I had the same foundation and so-called "faulty tools" at my disposal that you had. And with those tools at my disposal I'm able to discern truth from error. How is it possible that I could see that threesomes is wrong and yet others having the same "faulty tools" are unable to see it?
I'm sure that you're smart enough to know that people many times know the right thing to do but for some reason don't do it. I could have said, "They chose not to do the right thing," but I think that for some folks this "choice" is clouded by a lot of emotional baggage.
My father remarried after my mother died (my brothers and I were very young when she died.) He wanted a mother for his children. She wanted a husband and someone to sire her children.
It wasn't long before things fell apart. It became obvious that she resented us. I won't go into details here. I can say that everyday I would come home from school and look at the clock - to see how long I had before "she" came home.
There's a lot to share that can illustrate how tense the living situation was - but this board and this thread is not the place for that discussion. I guess you'll have to trust me when I say it wasn't any kind of life you would chose for your children.
In fact, there is my point. My father HATED the situation. BUT, he also felt obliged to stay in that marriage - because of his religious beliefs, because he didn't want to hurt her feelings, because he kept hoping that if we all kept our mouths shut long enough, the situation would change.
Did he know what to do? Yes and no. He felt torn. His religion told him it was wrong to divorce. His gut told him to get us out of that situation.
Okay, enough. I'm going to make some points to Larry here:
I'm hoping that you might consider that although there you were able to walk, that your "faulty tools" didn't prevent you from doing the right thing, that there is the possibility that a lot of folks felt torn by the religious beliefs they held because of TWI. They "knew" what to do - but there were other things telling them that it might just all get better if they just kept their mouths shut.
You can call it conjecture, I'm calling it empathy. You say that you lived through some dark times and came out of the valley of the shadow of death. I bet there are lots of stories like that here. Some of the stories would make your's look like a carousel ride, others might make your's look like some horror flick. The point is that for every person here - pain is pain. There isn't one of us here that gets to say that their pain is/was deeper or more intense than another's.
I think I've made a major faux pas here and taken a major tangent.
My guess is that face to face it wouldn't be so easy for you to be so quick with a quip. I could be wrong, though.
In regards to the "false prophet".. like father, like son..
I think it is pretty safe to assume falsehood. "we're PREVAILING.." "We inform our people about EVERYTHING, soups to nuts.." "It was a one time affair.."
practically everything that came out of the P.R. "man's" mouth was a falsehood, or extreme exaggeration.. and many followers didn't even know about the lawsuits and such, until they were blindsided here.
"we're taking GOOD CARE of the mrs.."
"it was a FAMILY DECISION.."
jp pipes up.. "hey, why didn't they ask ME???"
I still think this isn't too far off the beaten path as regards to false prophets. Like vic, his "leaders" were pretty well adept in perpetrating falsehood. I believe this is one of the hallmarks of a false prophet.
:) Mr. Squirrel you're proving my point and you don't even realize it.
You have two sets of statements: One from a man who is a representative of TWI and one from a man (although I haven't seen any actual statements from him). Seeing how the latter is no longer associated with TWI (and also because he happens to be the son of Mrs. W) you give creditability to his side and dismiss out of hand anything the former would say as pure lies. You find it easier to believe what the latter says because you already have concluded that anything coming out of the mouth of anyone associated with TWI is nothing but lies.
Now I could share with you an experience I had to show you that even a family member is capable of lying and causing other members of that family much grief but, again, why would you believe my version of events?
I have neither the time nor the patience to cut and paste the various quotes I'm about to address - but they are within the last few posts, so I trust this will still be easy to follow.
Fair enuf. I've already composed a response to your earlier post but, have not decided whether I want to post it. I'll briefly respond to this one and it should be evident why.
My father remarried after my mother died (my brothers and I were very young when she died.) He wanted a mother for his children. She wanted a husband and someone to sire her children.
It wasn't long before things fell apart. It became obvious that she resented us. I won't go into details here. I can say that everyday I would come home from school and look at the clock - to see how long I had before "she" came home.
There's a lot to share that can illustrate how tense the living situation was - but this board and this thread is not the place for that discussion. I guess you'll have to trust me when I say it wasn't any kind of life you would chose for your children.
In fact, there is my point. My father HATED the situation. BUT, he also felt obliged to stay in that marriage - because of his religious beliefs, because he didn't want to hurt her feelings, because he kept hoping that if we all kept our mouths shut long enough, the situation would change.
Did he know what to do? Yes and no. He felt torn. His religion told him it was wrong to divorce. His gut told him to get us out of that situation.
My father died three months before I was born. My mother raised three children on her own until I was about eight yrs old at which point she had found a man she decided to marry. I vividly recall the day, the place, and the words she spoke to me concerning her decision. I was elated! I was finally going to get a Daddy. What I got was a nightmare. Perhaps we share something in common.
My guess is that face to face it wouldn't be so easy for you to be so quick with a quip. I could be wrong, though.
That could be true but I wonder how many would have the same ending in their story that I do. That being my mother's choice to toss herself out the window of the top floor of a ten-story apartment building. And being the last one to speak to her and knowing what she planned on doing (minus the specifics).
That could be true but I wonder how many would have the same ending in their story that I do. That being my mother's choice to toss herself out the window of the top floor of a ten-story apartment building. And being the last one to speak to her and knowing what she planned on doing (minus the specifics).
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mamouda
Quote Teach. Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the
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I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing
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Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to
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dirty old man ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
dirty old one-eyed man
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doojable
I posed an honest question and not a smart-arsed, rhetorical, question. (That is ALWAYS what I mean when I say "honest question." I say that to eliminate any doubt, because I know how things here in cyber-space get misinterpreted.
First of all, I felt that your answer was - an answer. I had no "like or dislike" about it. I asked "Who gets the glory if TWI is not exposed?" (A reverse of the question you posed to me, BTW.)
You wrote:
I have made no such conclusion. I feel strongly that IF a person is looking for more information, they should be able to find it. Many folks have written over the years about how they "had a feeling" that something was awry, but couldn't put the pieces together. It is possible that there are people that are looking to understand more than just the party line.
I have no evidence that God is leading people to TWI. If He is leading anyone to TWI, then I doubt I can stand in His way.
Of course, there is the inverse of your statement: If the Devil is leading people to TWI then either the Devil sees some redeeming qualities for TWI - that suit his purposes.
We haven't even addressed IF God is leading people AWAY from TWI...
Now for the statement that I really felt was bait more than anything else:
On the subject of Paw getting glory. I am thankful for the opportunity to come here and banter with everyone. I've reconnected with some old friends and made some new friends. I can't speak for anyone else here - but in my book, that isn't "giving Glory."
Perhaps, what I'd like to read from you is a post where you actually say something on your own instead of cut up someone else's post into bite-size pieces and then take little more than sound bites with very little substance to respond.
I know....dream on, doojable, dream on...;)
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rascal
Larry, are you still involved with twi?
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Larry N Moore
No. I am not involved with ANY Christian organization/denomination.
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rascal
I can`t see God leading people into bondage...maybe the young women aren`t being drugged and rapes any more..with the passing of vp...and Geer leaving.....Maybe members are not being bullied into threesomes by threats of m&a and job loss held over their heads with craig since the law suits outted him....HOWEVER.....twi is still being run by the same people whom knowingly (according to court documents) allowed this to happen and supported the perpetrators regardless.....the ministry still clings to the doctrine that made this behavior excusable ....
No I have to say that I don`t believe for a second that God would lead anybody into twi...
I HAVE however seen ample evidence of people being led out by the tens of thousands in the last decade....shrug
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Ham
I dunno.. I just see the point of why God almighty desires glory every time someone flushes a toilet..
Take a "man" like the vicster.. his MINISTRY depends on invoking some supernatural event and cause, and later.. you find the event didn't even occur.
Snow on gas pumps, an audible voice.. trains and busses snowed in..
If these events didn't occur.. I can only think of two possible explanations.
one of them ISN'T that vic was really a mog of sorts.
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Larry N Moore
Of course you can't. That would make God evil. That can't be true, so who should we blame?
I know -- let's blame other people.
Hmm . . . are you sure you're not leaving anyone else out. How 'bout Mrs. Wierwille. Either she was as blind as a bat or just as evil as VP and Geer for not exposing them for what they were. Or maybe she loved VP more than she loved God.Sheesh! I'll tell ya what. I remember hearing a grad of the (new and improved version) of the Advance Class say: "There's nothing wrong with pornography." In response I told her: "If that is what you're being taught in the new Advance class, I want no part of it." Now, I can't say for sure that's what was being taught ('cause I never took it) but if I did sit through it and that's clearly what was being taught guess what -- I would have a decision to make -- Do I want to be a part of a ministry that teaches such garbage? The answer would be -- NO! I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be stupid enuf or too weak to fall for such crap. But then, it was an Advance Class grad I was speaking to.
My point is: Where is your head at if you can't see that having threesomes is wrong?
Well, I don't know where this doctrine came from. It certainly didn't come from the Word I knew. If people weren't able to separate truth from error, perhaps they needed to spend more time studying the Bible.Ok.
Well, Paul had the same problem. All Asia Minor were led away from his doctrine also. Maybe his "thorn in the flesh" was sexual perversion afterall contrary to what VP said in PFAL.
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Abigail
Actually Spot, I can and did say it regarding myself in this thread somewhere. I want to point that out because I do think it is at the very least entirely likely god led me to TWI. I did receive some wonderful healing of the heart and mind during my early days with TWI. I think God also let me know when it was time to leave and my mistake was in not listening to that still small voice at that time. I have also said I could not speak for anyone else and whether or not they were led to TWI.
And none of the above is meant as a defense for VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups who played a role in hurting the men and women who were involved with TWI. I never met VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups. The credit for healing I received during those early days of TWI goes to God, then to those people who were in my fellowship who were so loving and patient with me, and I get some of the credit too, because I did the work. :)
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rascal
I think Mrs. W was trapped. I think that she was his first victim. I think that she was bound by the tennents of her generation and culture to make the best of a bad situation.
I think that she was bullied and brow beaten.
She wasn`t the one drugging and raping young girls...She had a tough miserable life...but it seemed to me that she tried very hard to be a blessing.
Damned right I will blame the people who perpetrated these crimes....I certainly do not believe that God would lead us to them to be used and thrown away like so much trash.
People always have two choices....twi leaders chose to embrace evil to sate the lusts of their bellies.
Threesomes wrong ???..oh hayal yeah....but when the alternative is m&a ...losing your spouse, your family members all of your friends....when the scriptures can be twisted to make it appear alright....that all things are lawfull...that disobediance to the mog tantamount to disobediance to God...your choices appear limited.
Study the bible?? yeah..we did a lot of that...but with the flawed foundation and faulty tools that they provided.
Don`t know about paul...I am talking about a man who by every known method described in the scriptures...was clearly a man of the flesh, with no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Larry it seems like you being such a fan of the scriptures, you would take a look at what they say about the guys that do what vpw did.
Sometimes I think that people don`t want to face the truth about twi and vpw because in facing the truth ...they are unable to face what implications that will hold for themselves. :(
Far nicer to feel like we were God`s elite on a noble mission....than the unwitting tools of unscrupulous men,
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Larry N Moore
Of course that's what you would think. What else would explain why Mrs. W stayed with him and TWI until her death.
More conjecture. I love it! I take it you have first-hand knowledge that she was miserable.I know. It's much easier to blame other people then to take personal responsibility.
And people who know the Bible would also know that such behavior is evil. I see only two choices a person seeing such evil can make. Give in to the evil or stand against it. Would you like to blame other people for the choice you made?Where is obedience to God in any of this? Like Peter said: Are we to obey men, rather than God judge ye?
Well, here's the problem. I had the same foundation and so-called "faulty tools" at my disposal that you had. And with those tools at my disposal I'm able to discern truth from error. How is it possible that I could see that threesomes is wrong and yet others having the same "faulty tools" are unable to see it?Well, God will decide that on Judgment Day. Has He told you something He hasn't told me? :)
I know what the scriptures say but, what I don't know is what you say is true. I'm sure you believe it is and that's fine. Some people don't believe God exists and have good reasons for their unbelief. I only have my own personal experience to go by and my experience says -- God exists. I don't expect you to believe me just because of my personal experience. Why would you expect me to believe your personal experience?Sometimes.
Sure.
BTW Abi -- I really liked your response above this.
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rascal
You cannot handle the information Larry, so you have to label it conjecture.
You are unable to accept the truth, so you try to label those who present it as somehow substandard or unreliable.
It doesn`t mean that the events didn`t happen, it doesn`t mean that these men were not evil...it simply means that you cannot handle the truth...shrug
You aren`t going to convince many that the stenche filled darkness of life imprisoned in twi is anything desirable once someone tastes the fresh air of freedom out from under the confines of evil men, nor will many be willing to replace the shackles of false dogma ..once freed and experiencing the life.
Your house is built on sand buddy.
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Ham
Honestly, loy and crowd picked up where vic left off. The brow-beating, that is.
Oh, she didn't stay with twi until her death. She was DUMPED in her old age..
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waysider
This, Mr. Hamm, is a good example of why I think it is a good idea for people to take some time when first coming to GSC to look at some of the background information and editorials BEFORE jumping right into the discussions.
There is also a whole thread that discusses this subject of Dottsie staying with VP.
Sorry, didn't mean to stray from the initial premise of the thread," False prophet or---------------?"
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Larry N Moore
:) This is also conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what I'm capable of handling but, because I question your opinions and point out what I consider conjecture (as opposed to verifiable facts) you find it necessary to opine from that that I can't handle information. My dear, it's obvious from this that it's YOU that can't handle having someone challenge your opinions.
Again, conjecture. You have no first-hand knowledge of what "truth" I've been exposed to and my capacity to handle it. "Truth" of the sort that most people having to face would devastate their lives. I faced it; accepted it for what it was; and came out on the other side victorious. And I thank God for walking me through that valley of the shadow of death.I label rumors -- rumors. I label hearsay -- hearsay. I label facts -- facts. And finally I label conjectures people make from facts -- conjectures. Sorry, if that bothers you and I would say -- You'll get over it. -- but, that would just be a conjectural statement on my part.
Sure it doesn't. But the opposite is also true. Even if I couldn't handle the information it doesn't mean the information is true.
:) I don't concern myself with convincing anyone. That's way too frustrating of a mental exercise. It's much more peaceable to just present my thoughts and opinions and leave it up to the individual to convince themselves.Now here's my point that you missed previously: If I were to share with you all of my life's experiences (even those during my tenure with TWI) why should you believe I'm being truthful with you? You don't know me but, even if you did -- unless you walked with me during those times how would you really know I was telling you the truth? People are capable of getting to the point of believing their own lies. Of convincing themselves that what they think is actually the truth. It's a survival instinct. Bottom line -- I wouldn't expect you to believe me -- why do you expect me to believe you?
:) Well, darling, you don't strike me as the "big bad wolf" capable of huffing and puffing and blowing my house down. Where you see little itsy pebbles, I see rocks. But, if you want to keep blowing away -- blow away. I don't mind the breeze.
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Ham
Yeah.. but it does have a little relevance. They didn't hold the words and threats of this "prophet" or "man of gawwd", regarding the treatment of his wife with much regard, did they? "Gawwwd have mercy on ya if you don't take care of Dotsie right.."
They went to the lawyers, weasled their way out, citing evey legal reason to put her out..
Prophet? Even "his own" people disagree, if not in words, in action..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Larry N Moore
:) Oh, I've read some snippets here and there. I read where someone from TWI wrote an open letter to GS (although the link to that letter doesn't work) concerning the care of Mrs. W and stated the accusations were lies. Of course, seeing how it was a representative of TWI -- naturally we are safe to assume that he was lying -- right?
A whole thread discussing the subject of why Mrs. W stayed with VP is just that -- a discussion. A discussion does not a truth make. But a discussion can make a belief that it's true.
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Ham
In regards to the "false prophet".. like father, like son..
I think it is pretty safe to assume falsehood. "we're PREVAILING.." "We inform our people about EVERYTHING, soups to nuts.." "It was a one time affair.."
practically everything that came out of the P.R. "man's" mouth was a falsehood, or extreme exaggeration.. and many followers didn't even know about the lawsuits and such, until they were blindsided here.
"we're taking GOOD CARE of the mrs.."
"it was a FAMILY DECISION.."
jp pipes up.. "hey, why didn't they ask ME???"
I still think this isn't too far off the beaten path as regards to false prophets. Like vic, his "leaders" were pretty well adept in perpetrating falsehood. I believe this is one of the hallmarks of a false prophet.
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Sunesis
Mrs. W was miserable with VP. She shed many a tear with some corps ladies, which has been shared here. There have been several threads on this over the years.
At VP's funeral, when my relatives went up to Mrs. W to give their sympathies (whom she had known for years were close to), she looked at them and said, "he was a mean man" - they were speechless. What do you say to that at a funeral???
Great epithet for hubby.
She wasn't sad to see him go, that's for sure.
We also know his son couldn't stand him either. I knew D quite well, he never hid his contempt for his father.
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doojable
Larry and Rascal,
I have neither the time nor the patience to cut and paste the various quotes I'm about to address - but they are within the last few posts, so I trust this will still be easy to follow.
I hear what Larry is saying. I also hear what Rascal is saying. I'd like to address something in the middle that comes from some personal experience, not TWI related. Concerning these two quotes from Larry:
I'm sure that you're smart enough to know that people many times know the right thing to do but for some reason don't do it. I could have said, "They chose not to do the right thing," but I think that for some folks this "choice" is clouded by a lot of emotional baggage.
My father remarried after my mother died (my brothers and I were very young when she died.) He wanted a mother for his children. She wanted a husband and someone to sire her children.
It wasn't long before things fell apart. It became obvious that she resented us. I won't go into details here. I can say that everyday I would come home from school and look at the clock - to see how long I had before "she" came home.
There's a lot to share that can illustrate how tense the living situation was - but this board and this thread is not the place for that discussion. I guess you'll have to trust me when I say it wasn't any kind of life you would chose for your children.
In fact, there is my point. My father HATED the situation. BUT, he also felt obliged to stay in that marriage - because of his religious beliefs, because he didn't want to hurt her feelings, because he kept hoping that if we all kept our mouths shut long enough, the situation would change.
Did he know what to do? Yes and no. He felt torn. His religion told him it was wrong to divorce. His gut told him to get us out of that situation.
Okay, enough. I'm going to make some points to Larry here:
I'm hoping that you might consider that although there you were able to walk, that your "faulty tools" didn't prevent you from doing the right thing, that there is the possibility that a lot of folks felt torn by the religious beliefs they held because of TWI. They "knew" what to do - but there were other things telling them that it might just all get better if they just kept their mouths shut.
You can call it conjecture, I'm calling it empathy. You say that you lived through some dark times and came out of the valley of the shadow of death. I bet there are lots of stories like that here. Some of the stories would make your's look like a carousel ride, others might make your's look like some horror flick. The point is that for every person here - pain is pain. There isn't one of us here that gets to say that their pain is/was deeper or more intense than another's.
I think I've made a major faux pas here and taken a major tangent.
My guess is that face to face it wouldn't be so easy for you to be so quick with a quip. I could be wrong, though.
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Larry N Moore
:) Mr. Squirrel you're proving my point and you don't even realize it.
You have two sets of statements: One from a man who is a representative of TWI and one from a man (although I haven't seen any actual statements from him). Seeing how the latter is no longer associated with TWI (and also because he happens to be the son of Mrs. W) you give creditability to his side and dismiss out of hand anything the former would say as pure lies. You find it easier to believe what the latter says because you already have concluded that anything coming out of the mouth of anyone associated with TWI is nothing but lies.
Now I could share with you an experience I had to show you that even a family member is capable of lying and causing other members of that family much grief but, again, why would you believe my version of events?
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Larry N Moore
Fair enuf. I've already composed a response to your earlier post but, have not decided whether I want to post it. I'll briefly respond to this one and it should be evident why.
My father died three months before I was born. My mother raised three children on her own until I was about eight yrs old at which point she had found a man she decided to marry. I vividly recall the day, the place, and the words she spoke to me concerning her decision. I was elated! I was finally going to get a Daddy. What I got was a nightmare. Perhaps we share something in common.You could be.
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doojable
I bet we aren't the only ones....
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Larry N Moore
That could be true but I wonder how many would have the same ending in their story that I do. That being my mother's choice to toss herself out the window of the top floor of a ten-story apartment building. And being the last one to speak to her and knowing what she planned on doing (minus the specifics).
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doojable
I'm not sure....
I need to take some time to cry...
I really have no other words at this time...
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