Wow, Cynic – thanks a bunch for those links! I definitely enjoyed them – I’ll have to get Divine Guidance for Ordinary Christians by James Petty. The OPC link has some great resources on it…good stuff…thanks again!
As a no-longer-a-Christian, I find a certain liberation in not having to determine what the "will of the Lord" is in a given situation. Despite TWI's and other denominations' insistance that the bible is simple, there are so many ways to interpret the contents, that a one-size-fits-all "Will of God" is a pious myth. Or maybe a good scam <_<
In that light, I find your initial post interesting, especially this quote:
Circumstances define the context of the decision and must be weighed by wisdom – not read as a "road sign" to God's "individual will for you."
These days when making decision, I find that there is a multitude of sometimes competing priorites that must be considered:
How will this decision affect my family?
How will this decision affect my advancement or even continued employment?
Is this decision legal?
Will this decision get me beaten up? :lol:
Is it something that I enjoy doing?
What kind of example am I setting for my children or for my subordinates at work by making this decision?
How will this decision affect my health?
ad infinitum...
The relative importance of these priorites may change according to the situation and the effect it has on myself and those that I care about.
I have seen that those who are inflexibly locked into a religious system (this by no means includes all religious people) make decisions based on what they perceive their God's will is, often without regard to the affect or consequenses of the decision.
Thanks, Oak – I always appreciate your input…I didn’t really know where I was going with this thread – but your post IS a direction I’d like to explore. Don’t let the title of the thread throw you – we’re an equal-opportunity forum here . Like I indicated in my first post – coming out of TWI was a rude awakening for dealing with the real world – how to THINK for myself. I think your list of competing priorities is typical of a wise thought process for working through a decision. And I have to agree with you saying some people are inflexibly locked into a religious system and do not consider the ramifications of their decisions. In my never-to-be-released book I’ll get back with You on that as soon as I talk to My Twig Leader I openly admit my decision-making style was usually shallow, irresponsible, lazy and shortsighted.
Sometimes if what is desired is unselfish and for the right reasons, in one's perception, there would be no obstacle too big to stop an attaining of certain desires and wills. And the cares and concerns stated in Oaks post become no more a consideration but are tossed aside in light of a greater desire then self-preservation.
Jonathan Edwards is considered by many to be one of America's greatest theologians. Both 131 Christians Everyone Should Know from the Editors of Christian History Magazine and Nelson's New Christian Dictionary, editor George Thomas Kurian - mention his work as a contributing factor in the Great Awakening [1739-1741]. And Yale University says in his biography, "In 1734-1735, Edwards oversaw some of the initial stirrings of the First Great Awakening. He gained international fame as a revivalist and "theologian of the heart" after publishing A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God (1738), which described the awakening in his church and served as an empirical model for American and British revivalists alike. The widespread revivals of the 1730's and 1740's stimulated one of the two most fruitful periods for Edwards' writings…"http://edwards.yale.edu/about-edwards/biography/
I think some of his comments made around the time of the Great Awakening found in Edwards' "Thoughts on the Revival of Religion in New England," are quite relevant in a discussion about decision-making and guidance. The following excerpts are from The Works of Jonathan Edwards, 2 Volumes, Banner of Truth, 1974 edition, editor Edward Hickman, 1:404, 405:
"One erroneous principle, than which scarce any has proved more mischievous to the present glorious work of God, is a notion that it is God's manner in these days, to guide his saints, at least some that are more eminent, by inspiration, or immediate revelation. They suppose he makes known to them what shall come to pass hereafter, or what it is his will that they should do, by impressions made upon their minds, either with or without texts of Scripture; whereby something is made known to them, that is not taught in the Scripture. By such a notion the devil has a great door opened for him; and if once this opinion should come to be fully yielded to, and established in the church of God, Satan would have opportunity thereby to set up himself as the guide and oracle of God's people, and to have his word regarded as their infallible rule, and so lead them where he would, and to introduce what he pleased, and soon to bring the Bible into neglect and contempt. Late experience, in some instances, has shown that the tendency of this notion is to cause persons to esteem the Bible as in a great measure useless…
…Some that follow impulses and impressions indulge a notion, that they do no other than follow the guidance of God's word, because the impression is made with a text of Scripture that comes to mind. But they take the text as it is impressed on their minds, and improve it as a new revelation to all intents and purposes…[page 404]
…The leading of the Spirit which God gives his children, and which is peculiar to them, is that teaching them his statutes, and causing them to understand the way of his precepts, which the psalmist so very often prays for, especially in the 119th Psalm; and not in giving them new statutes and new precepts. He graciously gives them eyes to see, and ears to hear, and hearts to understand; he causes them to understand the fear of the Lord, and so "brings the blind by a way they knew not, and leads them in paths that they had not known, and makes darkness light before them, and crooked paths straight." So the assistance of the Spirit in praying and preaching seems by some to have been greatly misunderstood, and they have sought after a miraculous assistance of inspiration, by the immediate suggesting of words to them, by such gifts and influences of the Spirit, in praying and teaching, as the apostle speaks of, I Corinthians 14:14, 26. [which many natural men had in those days,] instead of a gracious holy assistance of the Spirit of God, which is the far more excellent way; [as I Corinthians 12:31 and 13:1] the gracious and most excellent assistance of the Spirit of God is not by immediately suggesting words to the apprehension, which may be with a cold, dead heart; but by warming the heart, and filling it with a great sense of things to be spoken, and with holy affections, that these may suggest words. Thus indeed the Spirit of God may be said, indirectly and mediately, to suggest words to us, to indite our petitions for us, and to teach the preacher what to say; he fills the heart, and that fills the mouth…
…But, to return to the head of impressions and immediate revelations; many lay themselves open to a delusion by expecting direction from heaven in this way, and waiting for it. In such a case it is easy for persons to imagine that they have it. They are perhaps at a loss concerning something, undetermined what they shall do, or what course they shall take in some affair; and they pray to God to direct them, and make known to them his mind and will; and then, instead of expecting to be directed, by being assisted in considering the rules of God's word, his providence, and their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them, they are waiting for some secret immediate influence, unaccountably swaying their minds, and turning their thoughts or inclinations that way in which God would have them to go. And secondly, they are greatly exposed to be deceived by their own imaginations; for such an expectation awakens and quickens the imagination; and oftentimes is called an uncommon impression, that is no such thing; and they ascribe that to the agency of some invisible being, which is owing only to themselves…" [page 405]
Sounds like the guy is afraid of a lot of thoughts.
Every little shadow that don't fit his own theology and it's all those bad things he says they are.
It doesn’t hit me that way at all…it appears to me that Edwards encouraged thinking – some of those things sounded like things that Oakspear mentioned on what to consider in the decision-making process [like considering “…their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them.”].
Not sure if I follow you there, Cman. I really don’t care what direction the discussion goes – but let me clarify what I was thinking when I started it. The context was decision-making and the will of God – an issue which I think is of some importance to Christians. In my opinion, some of the incidents and beliefs expressed on the CES threads indicate a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture. But that’s just my opinion. But anyway…like I said – I don’t care where this discussion goes – I enjoy everyone’s input…you never know where some of these threads wind up – it’s an open forum and anything goes.
Could you be more specific with what you meant by, “I'm not trying to negate what this fellow believes. Just point out that he is putting limits on what can be received. Which a lot of people do. I have no problem with that. But personally I won't limit what can be received from any direction. At least I try not to.” Also, I’m puzzled by your statement, “Lies will eventually reveal truth.” Would you elaborate on how that works.
After reading your first post to begin this great tread I got thinking and here were I went
1 Cor 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I love this part of the bible because it lets me be me even if I am just the knee were others are the mouth
One erroneous principle, than which scarce any has proved more mischievous to the present glorious work of God, is a notion that it is God's manner in these days, to guide his saints, at least some that are more eminent, by inspiration, or immediate revelation. They suppose he makes known to them what shall come to pass hereafter, or what it is his will that they should do, by impressions made upon their minds, either with or without texts of Scripture; whereby something is made known to them, that is not taught in the Scripture
John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
It is taught in the scriptures. Just because one can't see it, that don't mean it isn't there.
And he furthers his position with fear of the "DEVIL".
By such a notion the devil has a great door opened for him; and if once this opinion should come to be fully yielded to, and established in the church of God, Satan would have opportunity thereby to set up himself as the guide and oracle of God's people, and to have his word regarded as their infallible rule, and so lead them where he would, and to introduce what he pleased, and soon to bring the Bible into neglect and contempt. Late experience, in some instances, has shown that the tendency of this notion is to cause persons to esteem the Bible as in a great measure useless…
He sites no examples. I on the other hand have witnessed revelation and inspiration in action and it opens the eyes and ears to the scriptures, not cuts them off. And through fear of this devil he boxes in that which was never designed to be limited.
He is making a broad stroke of condemning any other words besides what the scriptures literally say.
A big mistake, because how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit.
What are we supposed to do, just go by what is written and definitions and texts?
That route didn't work in The Way and it won't work in life.
We must listen to people who may seem to be speaking by the spirit.
Or just give them a bible and concordance and walk away.
Which way do you think worked in Acts?
Speaking the Word by revelation and inspiration or definitions of words?
Or some other method of learning that limits itself to books.
Not that books are not useful, but they are limiting.
Whereas the Living Epistle of the heart is not.
Adding this phrase in the first section I quoted is to make those who speak look bad.-
at least some that are more eminent
Making it sound as if the person is more important either to others or in the eyes of the one who speaks by the spirit of God.
Cman, thanks for your thoughtful response…I wouldn't put TWI on the "following Scripture" side of this decision-making and the will of God issue. In my opinion TWI and CES exhibit a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture...The John 16 passage you cited hits me as referring to the Spirit guiding Christians into an understanding of Scripture. I think Scripture explains how it worked until the entire Bible was written:
II Peter 1:21 NASB
For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by, "how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit?" That sort of reminds me of VPW's saying, "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Which I think short-changes the capabilities of one of God's most amazing designs – the human brain – with the potential for powerful critical thinking and creative thinking functions. Thinking about the alternative view of decision-making mentioned in my first post - I don't think there would be much of a difference in the decision-making process of a Christian and a non-Christian- except for any issues that would touch on matters of faith of course. I imagine both would be wise to consider all the items that would be touched by a decision – similar to what Oakspear listed earlier in post # 4.
Maxson & Friesen adapt the traditional view of decision-making in a humorous scenario about Adam and Eve in Genesis. Eve comes to Adam and says, "I'd really like to know what God's will is for us concerning dinner tonight. Would you go ask Him?" Adam responds, "He said we could have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree." Eve: "I just want to be in the center of God's will – would you be a dear and go check with Him." A little while later Adam returns. Eve: "Well – what did He say? What should we have for dinner tonight?" Adam: "He said the same thing He told us the first time – we can have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree."
I really don’t see the alternative view of decision-making as something that limits or boxes in a Christian. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite – and compared to the traditional view would say that is more a description of the traditional view that puts constraints on one’s personal preferences, freedom of choice, critical thinking, and creative thinking. That’s what I think the adaptation of Adam and Eve/traditional view of decision-making highlights. And as funny as the above scenario sounds – I think that is exactly how some Christians make a lot of decisions in life.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by, "how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit?" That sort of reminds me of VPW's saying, "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Which I think short-changes the capabilities of one of God's most amazing designs – the human brain – with the potential for powerful critical thinking and creative thinking functions.
T-bone, I don't mean that one can't go beyond what one is taught. Although we do need taught.
A lot of things are learned in the doing of them or afterwards.
Critical thinking and creative thinking are a superb function of the brain. Bringing to light that which has been hidden in the brain.
I'm thinking even beyond creative and critical thinking. Because it's the wisdom that confounds the wise, when it comes to spiritual matters. And not to discard this thinking but to flow along with it. That which only the Spirit can show you is what can be obscured by critical and creative thinking also I believe. But again I say that it will also flow with it.
Out of the belly shall flow rivers of living water. This is the Word flowing from the mouth of one speaking by the Spirit.
And it's not to undermine critical and creative thinking. To the pure all things are pure. So we look for that pureness of thought. No matter how it comes. And no matter how it comes it is that which is working in you that 'sees' what is meant, the understanding and wisdom, and the things not thought of before. It all comes from within the one thinking. Others can just jolt or bring to mind different things.
A lot of things are learned in the doing of them or afterwards
And what I mean by this is not to do things without good reasoning, but that more understanding and wisdom comes from what we have reasoned to do. I don't mean to do things without thinking.
Thought I'd add that just in case it was taken that way.
Cman, I think I get what you're saying about, "the wisdom that confounds the wise, when it comes to spiritual matters. And not to discard this thinking but to flow along with it. That which only the Spirit can show you is what can be obscured by critical and creative thinking also I believe. But again I say that it will also flow with it." However, I don't think the Bible pits critical and creative thinking against spiritual matters. I tend to think that if God was going to design a thought processing system like our brains He would make it compatible with the thoughts He'd like us to process. I don't think the Bible makes the Christian life one of faith versus reason. How would He get His message to the unsaved?
Romans 10:17 NASB
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Hearing the word of Christ and accepting those words as true – necessitates the person understands the message by their use of reason. In Isaiah a passage shows God appealing to a sinner's reason:
Isaiah 1:18 NASB
"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."
If one wants to make an argument of spiritual matters being pitted against anything – I think a better case could be made of faith versus sight:
II Corinthians 5:7 NASB
…for we walk by faith, not by sight.
I believe God designed the human brain – and doesn't condemn our gaining knowledge and wisdom – since that appears to be a large part of its function – and for the Christian, the mind appears to be the means for loving God.
Matthew 22:37 NASB
And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND."
I think VPW really confused things by teaching that there was such a HUGE separation of "spiritual knowledge" from our reason. In one of his books he said something to the effect that in the kingdom of God – the Word and not reason have first place – or something like that. Anyway it was his goofy ideas like that one that laid the groundwork for selling people on some of his nonsense like the law-of-believing …I think when the Bible condemns knowledge or wisdom it is of the kind that opposes God:
II Corinthians 10:5 NASB
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
I think we're probably saying similar things - with you saying we're to "flow with it" - in other words not opposing God with our thinking process - I guess - I don't know - I don't want to put words in your mouth... It proves to be a fascinating study in Proverbs if you take note how much of a strong moral overtone wisdom carries in the context of where it's mentioned. I see that as an emphasis more on the moral aspect of God's wisdom rather than trying to say it is intellectually superior or that it is different in some way from regular ol' wisdom.
Proverbs 9:10 NASB
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Certainly the Spirit of God provides assistance in our understanding deepening as we study, reflect and apply Scripture – there's lots of verses that mention that.
Sorry about that, Cman. Sometimes it’s challenging to have a “conversation” on a thread since we’re not face-to-face or in real time. Guess my approach is sort of hit-or-miss sometimes. So it becomes “are you saying this?” or “I think you mean that” or "that makes me think of this", etc...Hopefully - we eventually figure out what each other is saying.
Yes – I do see what you mean about the author "cutting off ways of hearing from God" - - and I do think it IS intentional…And that's probably where you and I differ – I happen to agree with the authors I've cited thus far. It's all a matter of perspective – and that's okay…Threads are great for exploring ideas. Sometimes threads go all over the map – and that's cool. Yah never know – thinking out loud is a great catalyst.
Here's where I'm coming from: I am a Christian and tend to take a conservative approach on things. And on this particular issue [decision-making and the will of God] I've tried to figure out what the Bible shows to be a typical decision-making process for a Christian. I could be wrong on this – and nothing is etched in stone for me – but I have adopted more stringent standards for allowing anything to alter my beliefs. And I'm not saying my thought process is intellectually superior to anyone else's – I'm just trying to do a better job of processing things than when I was in TWI. While in TWI – I was not very discriminating in what I bought into – as long as it agreed with TWI doctrine – whether it was somebody's explanation of a verse or trying to determine the "first thought" I had in a situation because that was "revelation", or listening to someone brag on how God showed them where they should live or what they should do…So the following Scripture is why I hold to a conservative approach on "guidance" or hearing from God.
I do agree with you on "everyone has a little spark of the divine." Even after the fall of Adam and Eve, man still retained the image of God – although now it's…distorted…obscured…or something.
Genesis 9:6 NASB
Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
As far as hearing from God – I am doubtful of people's references to "impressions" from God, or saying "God led me to do this" or the personal prophecy stuff because I don't think there's sufficient scriptural evidence for them, and don't think it would be subject to such a high "failure rate" [their revelation doesn't pan out] if it was from God. In my opinion God has a very high standard set for quality control of anything He's behind – PERFECTION. It appears to me to be from their own imagination, wishful thinking and presumptuous attitude on how God should work. I lean towards the idea that you can't trust people when it comes to spiritual matters because of verses like:
Jeremiah 10:23 NASB
I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
Jeremiah 17:9 NASB
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
II Corinthians 10:5 NASB
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
Colossians 2:8 NASB
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
I would also like to add – I am not saying God never gives revelation or special guidance or provides a sign. It's not my place to set limits on what God Almighty can or cannot do. I do believe He does things like that. In my opinion that's not the norm and think it's presumptuous to expect that God does so because I see it as necessary. Because He is God and if there's something He really has to tell me or wants me to do - I figure He'll have no problem getting His message to me…I do believe God works in me somehow – I can't explain it – it's a totally subjective thing. But I've never heard an audible voice – or a voice in my head like Martin Short in Inner Space – never got a vision – never seen an out-and-out stupendous miracle like someone raised from the dead…If other people have – great! I'm just not going to base my faith on someone else's experience. I did enough of that in TWI – where they'd make a mountainous-miracle out of a molehill.
I like what you said – you’ve got some great points there – and especially the last two lines – I think the same way…It seems like TWI and CES practice far too much of the opposite side of your statement [“man attributes great things to himself rather then God the author of all things”] – in that they so often attribute what they do as something from God.
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Cynic
T-Bone,
An Internet acquaintance of mine did a few posts on his blog a while back on the “guidance” issue. You possibly would enjoy them:
http://christianmind.blogspot.com/search?q=Friesen
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T-Bone
Wow, Cynic – thanks a bunch for those links! I definitely enjoyed them – I’ll have to get Divine Guidance for Ordinary Christians by James Petty. The OPC link has some great resources on it…good stuff…thanks again!
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Oakspear
As a no-longer-a-Christian, I find a certain liberation in not having to determine what the "will of the Lord" is in a given situation. Despite TWI's and other denominations' insistance that the bible is simple, there are so many ways to interpret the contents, that a one-size-fits-all "Will of God" is a pious myth. Or maybe a good scam <_<
In that light, I find your initial post interesting, especially this quote:
These days when making decision, I find that there is a multitude of sometimes competing priorites that must be considered:
The relative importance of these priorites may change according to the situation and the effect it has on myself and those that I care about.
I have seen that those who are inflexibly locked into a religious system (this by no means includes all religious people) make decisions based on what they perceive their God's will is, often without regard to the affect or consequenses of the decision.
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T-Bone
Thanks, Oak – I always appreciate your input…I didn’t really know where I was going with this thread – but your post IS a direction I’d like to explore. Don’t let the title of the thread throw you – we’re an equal-opportunity forum here
. Like I indicated in my first post – coming out of TWI was a rude awakening for dealing with the real world – how to THINK for myself. I think your list of competing priorities is typical of a wise thought process for working through a decision. And I have to agree with you saying some people are inflexibly locked into a religious system and do not consider the ramifications of their decisions. In my never-to-be-released book I’ll get back with You on that as soon as I talk to My Twig Leader I openly admit my decision-making style was usually shallow, irresponsible, lazy and shortsighted.
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cman
Sometimes if what is desired is unselfish and for the right reasons, in one's perception, there would be no obstacle too big to stop an attaining of certain desires and wills. And the cares and concerns stated in Oaks post become no more a consideration but are tossed aside in light of a greater desire then self-preservation.
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T-Bone
Jonathan Edwards is considered by many to be one of America's greatest theologians. Both 131 Christians Everyone Should Know from the Editors of Christian History Magazine and Nelson's New Christian Dictionary, editor George Thomas Kurian - mention his work as a contributing factor in the Great Awakening [1739-1741]. And Yale University says in his biography, "In 1734-1735, Edwards oversaw some of the initial stirrings of the First Great Awakening. He gained international fame as a revivalist and "theologian of the heart" after publishing A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God (1738), which described the awakening in his church and served as an empirical model for American and British revivalists alike. The widespread revivals of the 1730's and 1740's stimulated one of the two most fruitful periods for Edwards' writings…"http://edwards.yale.edu/about-edwards/biography/
I think some of his comments made around the time of the Great Awakening found in Edwards' "Thoughts on the Revival of Religion in New England," are quite relevant in a discussion about decision-making and guidance. The following excerpts are from The Works of Jonathan Edwards, 2 Volumes, Banner of Truth, 1974 edition, editor Edward Hickman, 1:404, 405:
"One erroneous principle, than which scarce any has proved more mischievous to the present glorious work of God, is a notion that it is God's manner in these days, to guide his saints, at least some that are more eminent, by inspiration, or immediate revelation. They suppose he makes known to them what shall come to pass hereafter, or what it is his will that they should do, by impressions made upon their minds, either with or without texts of Scripture; whereby something is made known to them, that is not taught in the Scripture. By such a notion the devil has a great door opened for him; and if once this opinion should come to be fully yielded to, and established in the church of God, Satan would have opportunity thereby to set up himself as the guide and oracle of God's people, and to have his word regarded as their infallible rule, and so lead them where he would, and to introduce what he pleased, and soon to bring the Bible into neglect and contempt. Late experience, in some instances, has shown that the tendency of this notion is to cause persons to esteem the Bible as in a great measure useless…
…Some that follow impulses and impressions indulge a notion, that they do no other than follow the guidance of God's word, because the impression is made with a text of Scripture that comes to mind. But they take the text as it is impressed on their minds, and improve it as a new revelation to all intents and purposes…[page 404]
…The leading of the Spirit which God gives his children, and which is peculiar to them, is that teaching them his statutes, and causing them to understand the way of his precepts, which the psalmist so very often prays for, especially in the 119th Psalm; and not in giving them new statutes and new precepts. He graciously gives them eyes to see, and ears to hear, and hearts to understand; he causes them to understand the fear of the Lord, and so "brings the blind by a way they knew not, and leads them in paths that they had not known, and makes darkness light before them, and crooked paths straight." So the assistance of the Spirit in praying and preaching seems by some to have been greatly misunderstood, and they have sought after a miraculous assistance of inspiration, by the immediate suggesting of words to them, by such gifts and influences of the Spirit, in praying and teaching, as the apostle speaks of, I Corinthians 14:14, 26. [which many natural men had in those days,] instead of a gracious holy assistance of the Spirit of God, which is the far more excellent way; [as I Corinthians 12:31 and 13:1] the gracious and most excellent assistance of the Spirit of God is not by immediately suggesting words to the apprehension, which may be with a cold, dead heart; but by warming the heart, and filling it with a great sense of things to be spoken, and with holy affections, that these may suggest words. Thus indeed the Spirit of God may be said, indirectly and mediately, to suggest words to us, to indite our petitions for us, and to teach the preacher what to say; he fills the heart, and that fills the mouth…
…But, to return to the head of impressions and immediate revelations; many lay themselves open to a delusion by expecting direction from heaven in this way, and waiting for it. In such a case it is easy for persons to imagine that they have it. They are perhaps at a loss concerning something, undetermined what they shall do, or what course they shall take in some affair; and they pray to God to direct them, and make known to them his mind and will; and then, instead of expecting to be directed, by being assisted in considering the rules of God's word, his providence, and their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them, they are waiting for some secret immediate influence, unaccountably swaying their minds, and turning their thoughts or inclinations that way in which God would have them to go. And secondly, they are greatly exposed to be deceived by their own imaginations; for such an expectation awakens and quickens the imagination; and oftentimes is called an uncommon impression, that is no such thing; and they ascribe that to the agency of some invisible being, which is owing only to themselves…" [page 405]
End of excerpts
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cman
Sounds like the guy is afraid of a lot of thoughts.
Every little shadow that don't fit his own theology and it's all those bad things he says they are.
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Cynic
Well, at least JE could manage to express some coherent thoughts.
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T-Bone
It doesn’t hit me that way at all…it appears to me that Edwards encouraged thinking – some of those things sounded like things that Oakspear mentioned on what to consider in the decision-making process [like considering “…their circumstances, to look on things in a true light, and justly weigh them.”].
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cman
I'm not trying to negate what this fellow believes.
Just point out that he is putting limits on what can be received.
Which a lot of people do. I have no problem with that.
But personally I won't limit what can be received from any direction.
At least I try not to.
Lies will eventually reveal truth.
So they don't scare me any.
What I believe changes as I learn more.
So I don't live in a limited space of thought.
My comments are not meant to steer away but look closer.
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T-Bone
Not sure if I follow you there, Cman. I really don’t care what direction the discussion goes – but let me clarify what I was thinking when I started it. The context was decision-making and the will of God – an issue which I think is of some importance to Christians. In my opinion, some of the incidents and beliefs expressed on the CES threads indicate a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture. But that’s just my opinion. But anyway…like I said – I don’t care where this discussion goes – I enjoy everyone’s input…you never know where some of these threads wind up – it’s an open forum and anything goes.
Could you be more specific with what you meant by, “I'm not trying to negate what this fellow believes. Just point out that he is putting limits on what can be received. Which a lot of people do. I have no problem with that. But personally I won't limit what can be received from any direction. At least I try not to.” Also, I’m puzzled by your statement, “Lies will eventually reveal truth.” Would you elaborate on how that works.
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cman
When someone says something is not true. Then that something came from somewhere.
Finding the source of what is called a lie will reveal more about what has been labeled a lie.
Then you can determine the truth with more info. Finding more sources will reveal even more info.
As far as being specific about what you said to be specific about.
It's in this persons writings, what he says doesn't happen.
Actually does, but not with the twist he gives it.
That's about it, I can't think for anyone else.
Nor am I saying that anyone is not thinking.
Things can be seen in many places, not considered before.
So I'll just leave it at that because I don't know how to put it better.
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year2027
God first
Beloved T-Bone
God loves you my dear friend
After reading your first post to begin this great tread I got thinking and here were I went
1 Cor 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I love this part of the bible because it lets me be me even if I am just the knee were others are the mouth
I hope you like this part too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
It is taught in the scriptures. Just because one can't see it, that don't mean it isn't there.
And he furthers his position with fear of the "DEVIL".
He sites no examples. I on the other hand have witnessed revelation and inspiration in action and it opens the eyes and ears to the scriptures, not cuts them off. And through fear of this devil he boxes in that which was never designed to be limited.
He is making a broad stroke of condemning any other words besides what the scriptures literally say.
A big mistake, because how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit.
What are we supposed to do, just go by what is written and definitions and texts?
That route didn't work in The Way and it won't work in life.
We must listen to people who may seem to be speaking by the spirit.
Or just give them a bible and concordance and walk away.
Which way do you think worked in Acts?
Speaking the Word by revelation and inspiration or definitions of words?
Or some other method of learning that limits itself to books.
Not that books are not useful, but they are limiting.
Whereas the Living Epistle of the heart is not.
Adding this phrase in the first section I quoted is to make those who speak look bad.-
Making it sound as if the person is more important either to others or in the eyes of the one who speaks by the spirit of God.
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T-Bone
Cman, thanks for your thoughtful response…I wouldn't put TWI on the "following Scripture" side of this decision-making and the will of God issue. In my opinion TWI and CES exhibit a weakness in decision-making skills and a preference for direct spiritual guidance over the use of reason and Scripture...The John 16 passage you cited hits me as referring to the Spirit guiding Christians into an understanding of Scripture. I think Scripture explains how it worked until the entire Bible was written:
II Peter 1:21 NASB
For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by, "how can one learn without being taught either directly or by another by the Holy Spirit?" That sort of reminds me of VPW's saying, "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Which I think short-changes the capabilities of one of God's most amazing designs – the human brain – with the potential for powerful critical thinking and creative thinking functions. Thinking about the alternative view of decision-making mentioned in my first post - I don't think there would be much of a difference in the decision-making process of a Christian and a non-Christian- except for any issues that would touch on matters of faith of course. I imagine both would be wise to consider all the items that would be touched by a decision – similar to what Oakspear listed earlier in post # 4.
Maxson & Friesen adapt the traditional view of decision-making in a humorous scenario about Adam and Eve in Genesis. Eve comes to Adam and says, "I'd really like to know what God's will is for us concerning dinner tonight. Would you go ask Him?" Adam responds, "He said we could have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree." Eve: "I just want to be in the center of God's will – would you be a dear and go check with Him." A little while later Adam returns. Eve: "Well – what did He say? What should we have for dinner tonight?" Adam: "He said the same thing He told us the first time – we can have whatever we want – just not the fruit of a certain tree."
I really don’t see the alternative view of decision-making as something that limits or boxes in a Christian. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite – and compared to the traditional view would say that is more a description of the traditional view that puts constraints on one’s personal preferences, freedom of choice, critical thinking, and creative thinking. That’s what I think the adaptation of Adam and Eve/traditional view of decision-making highlights. And as funny as the above scenario sounds – I think that is exactly how some Christians make a lot of decisions in life.
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cman
T-bone, I don't mean that one can't go beyond what one is taught. Although we do need taught.
A lot of things are learned in the doing of them or afterwards.
Critical thinking and creative thinking are a superb function of the brain. Bringing to light that which has been hidden in the brain.
I'm thinking even beyond creative and critical thinking. Because it's the wisdom that confounds the wise, when it comes to spiritual matters. And not to discard this thinking but to flow along with it. That which only the Spirit can show you is what can be obscured by critical and creative thinking also I believe. But again I say that it will also flow with it.
Out of the belly shall flow rivers of living water. This is the Word flowing from the mouth of one speaking by the Spirit.
And it's not to undermine critical and creative thinking. To the pure all things are pure. So we look for that pureness of thought. No matter how it comes. And no matter how it comes it is that which is working in you that 'sees' what is meant, the understanding and wisdom, and the things not thought of before. It all comes from within the one thinking. Others can just jolt or bring to mind different things.
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cman
And what I mean by this is not to do things without good reasoning, but that more understanding and wisdom comes from what we have reasoned to do. I don't mean to do things without thinking.
Thought I'd add that just in case it was taken that way.
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T-Bone
Cman, I think I get what you're saying about, "the wisdom that confounds the wise, when it comes to spiritual matters. And not to discard this thinking but to flow along with it. That which only the Spirit can show you is what can be obscured by critical and creative thinking also I believe. But again I say that it will also flow with it." However, I don't think the Bible pits critical and creative thinking against spiritual matters. I tend to think that if God was going to design a thought processing system like our brains He would make it compatible with the thoughts He'd like us to process. I don't think the Bible makes the Christian life one of faith versus reason. How would He get His message to the unsaved?
Romans 10:17 NASB
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Hearing the word of Christ and accepting those words as true – necessitates the person understands the message by their use of reason. In Isaiah a passage shows God appealing to a sinner's reason:
Isaiah 1:18 NASB
"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."
If one wants to make an argument of spiritual matters being pitted against anything – I think a better case could be made of faith versus sight:
II Corinthians 5:7 NASB
…for we walk by faith, not by sight.
I believe God designed the human brain – and doesn't condemn our gaining knowledge and wisdom – since that appears to be a large part of its function – and for the Christian, the mind appears to be the means for loving God.
Matthew 22:37 NASB
And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND."
I think VPW really confused things by teaching that there was such a HUGE separation of "spiritual knowledge" from our reason. In one of his books he said something to the effect that in the kingdom of God – the Word and not reason have first place – or something like that. Anyway it was his goofy ideas like that one that laid the groundwork for selling people on some of his nonsense like the law-of-believing …I think when the Bible condemns knowledge or wisdom it is of the kind that opposes God:
II Corinthians 10:5 NASB
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
I think we're probably saying similar things - with you saying we're to "flow with it" - in other words not opposing God with our thinking process - I guess - I don't know - I don't want to put words in your mouth... It proves to be a fascinating study in Proverbs if you take note how much of a strong moral overtone wisdom carries in the context of where it's mentioned. I see that as an emphasis more on the moral aspect of God's wisdom rather than trying to say it is intellectually superior or that it is different in some way from regular ol' wisdom.
Proverbs 9:10 NASB
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Certainly the Spirit of God provides assistance in our understanding deepening as we study, reflect and apply Scripture – there's lots of verses that mention that.
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cman
I agree T-Bone.
I do wish twi and vpw teachings would not be compared to what i'm trying to communicate.
It hinders the message greatly imo. And i don't think like them anymore.
They didn't know a lot of things that they thought they knew.
But that would be another thread.
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T-Bone
Sorry about that, Cman. Sometimes it’s challenging to have a “conversation” on a thread since we’re not face-to-face or in real time. Guess my approach is sort of hit-or-miss sometimes. So it becomes “are you saying this?” or “I think you mean that” or "that makes me think of this", etc...Hopefully - we eventually figure out what each other is saying.
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cman
No problem T-Bone.
I understand.
Soon enough we will all see a lot more clearly.
Do you see what I'm saying about how this author is cutting off ways of hearing from God?
Perhaps unintentionally.
You know it does remind me of how vp said about 'everyone has a little spark of the divine'.
And he was saying it was wrong, but it's more right then he knew I believe.
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T-Bone
Yes – I do see what you mean about the author "cutting off ways of hearing from God" - - and I do think it IS intentional…And that's probably where you and I differ – I happen to agree with the authors I've cited thus far. It's all a matter of perspective – and that's okay…Threads are great for exploring ideas. Sometimes threads go all over the map – and that's cool. Yah never know – thinking out loud is a great catalyst.
Here's where I'm coming from: I am a Christian and tend to take a conservative approach on things. And on this particular issue [decision-making and the will of God] I've tried to figure out what the Bible shows to be a typical decision-making process for a Christian. I could be wrong on this – and nothing is etched in stone for me – but I have adopted more stringent standards for allowing anything to alter my beliefs. And I'm not saying my thought process is intellectually superior to anyone else's – I'm just trying to do a better job of processing things than when I was in TWI. While in TWI – I was not very discriminating in what I bought into – as long as it agreed with TWI doctrine – whether it was somebody's explanation of a verse or trying to determine the "first thought" I had in a situation because that was "revelation", or listening to someone brag on how God showed them where they should live or what they should do…So the following Scripture is why I hold to a conservative approach on "guidance" or hearing from God.
I do agree with you on "everyone has a little spark of the divine." Even after the fall of Adam and Eve, man still retained the image of God – although now it's…distorted…obscured…or something.
Genesis 9:6 NASB
Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
As far as hearing from God – I am doubtful of people's references to "impressions" from God, or saying "God led me to do this" or the personal prophecy stuff because I don't think there's sufficient scriptural evidence for them, and don't think it would be subject to such a high "failure rate" [their revelation doesn't pan out] if it was from God. In my opinion God has a very high standard set for quality control of anything He's behind – PERFECTION. It appears to me to be from their own imagination, wishful thinking and presumptuous attitude on how God should work. I lean towards the idea that you can't trust people when it comes to spiritual matters because of verses like:
Jeremiah 10:23 NASB
I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
Jeremiah 17:9 NASB
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
II Corinthians 10:5 NASB
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
Colossians 2:8 NASB
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
I would also like to add – I am not saying God never gives revelation or special guidance or provides a sign. It's not my place to set limits on what God Almighty can or cannot do. I do believe He does things like that. In my opinion that's not the norm and think it's presumptuous to expect that God does so because I see it as necessary. Because He is God and if there's something He really has to tell me or wants me to do - I figure He'll have no problem getting His message to me…I do believe God works in me somehow – I can't explain it – it's a totally subjective thing. But I've never heard an audible voice – or a voice in my head like Martin Short in Inner Space – never got a vision – never seen an out-and-out stupendous miracle like someone raised from the dead…If other people have – great! I'm just not going to base my faith on someone else's experience. I did enough of that in TWI – where they'd make a mountainous-miracle out of a molehill.
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cman
Well, I believe John 16 comes in many perspectives and his will is obvious.
honesty
love
unselfish
giving
sticking to ones word
and other things of moral character
these things are told us in many ways
sometimes just right out of the blue
one can have a thought to do something godly and do it without thinking it is
man attributes great things to himself rather then God the author of all things
so i'm not a fanatic on verbal revelation
it comes in many ways and forms
and I also believe that much can be gained by listening closely to what someone else says
and make your decisions based on reasoning, godly reasoning and wisdom
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T-Bone
I like what you said – you’ve got some great points there – and especially the last two lines – I think the same way…It seems like TWI and CES practice far too much of the opposite side of your statement [“man attributes great things to himself rather then God the author of all things”] – in that they so often attribute what they do as something from God.
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