Thanks for making those document available, Pat. I know it must have cost you hundreds of dollars to obtain those, not to mention the time it took to convert them to PDF.
Both Rosalies' an Roberts' depositions have all the appearance of lies and coverups in my opinion. Some of their statements appear to be ABSOLUTELY false.
I think some of us who were around at those very times could beg to differ with some of their statements.
As they used to say in their own words, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
I'm surprised the attornies on either side didn't ask how people were M&A'd. Was there a letter? Was it announced? And what about "probation"? How is that biblical? After all, Rosary explained that M&A was taken from the bible!
Oh - and the debt thing - geez louise. One thing I can say about TWI's policies - they were smart to never put them in writing. They were just handed down verbally by intimidation.
I wish I had LCM's teaching tape from about 10 - 12 years ago regarding M&A. I don't remember all of it, but I do remember thinking it was a bad thing he was promoting.
"Are people required to take particular classes if they want to be assosicated with The Way?"
Answer:
"No .... "
Yeah, right. C'mon. A person did not last very long if they had no interest in taking any classes. This was common knowledge.
The pressure to take the foundational, Intermediate, and even Advanced classes was so intense that either a person took the class or they were told that they should go elsewhre. They were confronted as to why they they had no desire to take the class.
We were all but given an ultimatum. Take Rev. Martinadale's new Advanced Class or get out.
[This message was edited by igotout on January 18, 2004 at 10:59.]
According to Rosalie, I should NEVER have been put on probation and M&Aed at ALL. Holy COW, my State Coordinator and TC had it all wrong didn't they!! I am sure all the LCs and TCs were wrong on that point and Rosalie is clarifying that issue right now. Show this to all the Innies. Within a year, they will all be in debt. :D-->
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"..........but hey, I love to see a good Clothesline once in a while!
It seemed like Stephen Roberts was getting a little nervous under cross examination...stammering and such. But Colombo is going to keep leveraging the Peelers to prove they were forced to participate for 30 yrs. I don't see how they can do it.
Oh I don't know Johniam. I remember the first time I tried to leave TWI. I had two men I barely knew in my living room yelling at me and accusing me of all sorts of things. They said my marriage would fail, I'd never have a family, I'd end up a drunk and drug addict, etc. They asked me all kinds of personal questions about my past, insuating maybe I had been a lesbian, etc.
I have a friend who was kicked out of TWI. She had been sponsoring someone in the corps at the time. The corps guy called her, apparently under the 'guise' of finding out why she wasn't sending money anymore. One of the first things he told her was he was suprised she wasn't dead yet. She spent the better part of a year looking over her shoulder, afraid someone from TWI would come after her and try to kill her.
Then there were all of those teachings on how people who leave TWI end up dead.
I think, one could definitely argue there was coersion involved to keep people in.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
Lawyer: What did you do to satisfy yourself that this was an accurate statement? (that the Allen lawsuit was part of an organized campaign to destroy TWI - contained in the TWI press release)
Steven Roberts: I just read it and believed what it said was accurate.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Makes you just wish that you could chip in your own 2 cents worth.
Like: "It was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed that child".
Or: When the wc yelled at me for an hour (in front of several witnesses) that I caused my 2 miscarraiges because my abs wasn't enough.
And by the way, when did it get back down to tithing. If you'd been there awhile, you'd better cough up more!
What a bunch of liars. The underlings don't realize it, but if it boils down to it, Stinson, Roberts & all the rest of them will be sacrificed. I really saw that in rr's part. did anyone else?
Thanks for all the work & effort to post this.
PS: They should do exerpts from Sunday Teaching Tapes to prove their point. Even if it's all during lcm's time, they would need to show (in writing or whatever), when what he taught was changed. Wasn't there even something in the new improved adv class that touched on debt?
[This message was edited by LuckyGirl on January 18, 2004 at 13:22.]
I hate to say this, but I suspect that the Peeler case has been "dead in the water" from the very beginning. The court transcripts posted at Ex-cult World were from March 2003 court proceedings. Has there been any forward movement of this case in the intervening months?
The transcripts showed some very interesting things: 1). Lawyers are very disinclined to get down to the heart of the matter, and instead, dance artfully around the issue, asking and confirming seemingly irrelevant facts and opinions, ie., "Do you consider consider Mr. Peeler to be an intelligent person?" 2). Peeler's lawyer is not the sharpest knife in the drawer of Juris Prudence.
If Peeler's lawyer is to prove that that TWI has a well entrenched history of using manipulation, pressure tactics, emotional blackmail, and threats to induce compliance from its followers, they are going to have to do a far better job than was demonstrated in this transcript. Where are the supporting witnesses, who are willing to claim under oath, that they were marked and avoided for refusing to tithe, or for refusing to sell their home, or for marrying someone they had been ordered not to marry? I know someone who was kicked out because he wore tennis shoes to "dress your best" functions, after he had been told to obtain better dress for these occasions.
The number of lies and wide-eyed denials made by Rosie, Roberts, and that fellowship coordinator were truly awe-inspiring. But There is plenty of both written and audio-taped evidence that proves that they were not telling the truth. When will such things be entered into evidence? Probably never.
Columbo will make Peeler look like a disgruntled ex-follower, who, for 30 years, fully and enthusiastically agreed with the practices and tenants of TWI until he read alligations of misconduct on Greasespot Cafe. They will show that Dr. Peeler was in no way coerced into giving that $41,000 dollars in the way of tithe, and that he is not entitled to get it back. Our own experiences tell us otherwise, but someone had better be able to prove this in a court of law.
CC these things take time & time is on twi's side. They will try to delay & postpone as much as possible.
It also seemed tome to be more of a fact finding hearing to determine if the suit would move forward (or back to the state court instead of federal). No witnesses were there for either side, only defendants & plaintiff's.
The opening paragraph from the page where the court testimony is posted stated:" This hearing was one of the many legal maneuvers The Way International (TWI) has attempted to move the case to Federal Court. The Judge however, has sent the case back to state court where it started. As of January 2004, depositions are expected to be taken in the case shortly."
If depositions are being taken shortly, this would not be a dead case. Also, this was an evidentiary hearing because TWI was trying to have the case tried in Federal Court which would be more favorable to them.
The hearing was to determine jurisdiction, not to try the case which is coming up after depositions are taken. Rumors I have heard is that as many as 60 ex-members will be witnesses in the case when it comes to trial.
IMF, thanks for clearing that up for me. I am VERY relieved to hear that the fat lady has not yet sung in this case. Sixty witness! Wow! Boy, to be a fly on the wall of the courtroom when some of them take the stand. I certainly hope Peeler has a strong case and even stronger lawyers, because Colombo is a highly regarded heavy hitter. However, isn't his firm the same one that represented TWI in the Allen and Parker cases? Those all ended with settlments and sealed court records. What are the odds that this one won't end up the same way?
Unlike the other two latest cases, the Peelers has the financial resources to weather the storm.
Also, the rumors I have heard is that they want it to go to trial so that all the facts about this group come out in open court once and for all.
Mike Anderson is a very accomplished attorney who represents the Peelers, and as you know, Lawrence Levy is co-counsel and has been very successful in cult litigation.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks for posting.
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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tony
OMG can you believe the BS Rosie is putting out?
Long Live Israel !
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Seth
I love how Rosie says they "break-even" on the $100 WAP class fee. LOL what a riot! Considering the cost?
Seth
"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
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ItsStillTheWord
Amazing.
They should just cut the testimony crap and play tapes of LCM's rantings for the judge and jury to hear. (Its on tape folks)
... and then write the Peelers a check!
P.S. Does anyone remember the debt tape, 1994 I think, where LCM kept yelling 'Shut up, shut up...'?
I walked out of that meeting knowing that I'd have to sell my home or I would be confronted or worse.(Maybe the Judge would like to hear it)
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on January 17, 2004 at 22:34.]
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Seth
This Rev. Stephen Roberts is an idiot! What a dope!
Seth
"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
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ItsStillTheWord
I'll bet she is playing her best "Polly Purebread" for the Judge.
Somebody called the Oscar committee-I think we have a winner!!
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johniam
Seems like Peeler is basing his case on the idea that TWI "made him go to fellowship" all those yrs. That won't wash.
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igotout
Thanks for making those document available, Pat. I know it must have cost you hundreds of dollars to obtain those, not to mention the time it took to convert them to PDF.
Both Rosalies' an Roberts' depositions have all the appearance of lies and coverups in my opinion. Some of their statements appear to be ABSOLUTELY false.
I think some of us who were around at those very times could beg to differ with some of their statements.
As they used to say in their own words, "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth."
John Richeson
Former 7th Coprs
Tampa, FL
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Hope R.
I want MORE! Golly-gee-whiz....
I'm surprised the attornies on either side didn't ask how people were M&A'd. Was there a letter? Was it announced? And what about "probation"? How is that biblical? After all, Rosary explained that M&A was taken from the bible!
Oh - and the debt thing - geez louise. One thing I can say about TWI's policies - they were smart to never put them in writing. They were just handed down verbally by intimidation.
I wish I had LCM's teaching tape from about 10 - 12 years ago regarding M&A. I don't remember all of it, but I do remember thinking it was a bad thing he was promoting.
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Rocky
What is Peeler alleging?
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igotout
Question:
"Are people required to take particular classes if they want to be assosicated with The Way?"
Answer:
"No .... "
Yeah, right. C'mon. A person did not last very long if they had no interest in taking any classes. This was common knowledge.
The pressure to take the foundational, Intermediate, and even Advanced classes was so intense that either a person took the class or they were told that they should go elsewhre. They were confronted as to why they they had no desire to take the class.
We were all but given an ultimatum. Take Rev. Martinadale's new Advanced Class or get out.
[This message was edited by igotout on January 18, 2004 at 10:59.]
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igotout
Talking out of both sides of her ***
Question:
"Is being out of debt a requirement for anything?"
Answer:
"No."
Question:
How about if you want to be a member of leadership?
Answer:
"Yes, there is."
I see this a nothing more than being caught in a lie.
And this person is President of TWI!!!!? She does not seem very qualified to be President of anything, really.
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WrestlenotAgainst
According to Rosalie, I should NEVER have been put on probation and M&Aed at ALL. Holy COW, my State Coordinator and TC had it all wrong didn't they!! I am sure all the LCs and TCs were wrong on that point and Rosalie is clarifying that issue right now. Show this to all the Innies. Within a year, they will all be in debt.
:D-->
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"..........but hey, I love to see a good Clothesline once in a while!
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Pirate1974
A mind-numbing read. Jeez.
This Stephen Roberts has apparently decided to use the old Bill & Hillary "I don't remember/I can't recall" defense.
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johniam
It seemed like Stephen Roberts was getting a little nervous under cross examination...stammering and such. But Colombo is going to keep leveraging the Peelers to prove they were forced to participate for 30 yrs. I don't see how they can do it.
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Abigail
Oh I don't know Johniam. I remember the first time I tried to leave TWI. I had two men I barely knew in my living room yelling at me and accusing me of all sorts of things. They said my marriage would fail, I'd never have a family, I'd end up a drunk and drug addict, etc. They asked me all kinds of personal questions about my past, insuating maybe I had been a lesbian, etc.
I have a friend who was kicked out of TWI. She had been sponsoring someone in the corps at the time. The corps guy called her, apparently under the 'guise' of finding out why she wasn't sending money anymore. One of the first things he told her was he was suprised she wasn't dead yet. She spent the better part of a year looking over her shoulder, afraid someone from TWI would come after her and try to kill her.
Then there were all of those teachings on how people who leave TWI end up dead.
I think, one could definitely argue there was coersion involved to keep people in.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Oakspear
The Way doesn't tell people where to live
The Way doesn't monitor how much people give
The Way does not tell people who to marry or who to divorce
Fellowship coordinators are not restricted to everything the BOD says
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
Lawyer: What did you do to satisfy yourself that this was an accurate statement? (that the Allen lawsuit was part of an organized campaign to destroy TWI - contained in the TWI press release)
Steven Roberts: I just read it and believed what it said was accurate.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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LuckyGirl
Makes you just wish that you could chip in your own 2 cents worth.
Like: "It was the fear in the heart of that mother that killed that child".
Or: When the wc yelled at me for an hour (in front of several witnesses) that I caused my 2 miscarraiges because my abs wasn't enough.
And by the way, when did it get back down to tithing. If you'd been there awhile, you'd better cough up more!
What a bunch of liars. The underlings don't realize it, but if it boils down to it, Stinson, Roberts & all the rest of them will be sacrificed. I really saw that in rr's part. did anyone else?
Thanks for all the work & effort to post this.
PS: They should do exerpts from Sunday Teaching Tapes to prove their point. Even if it's all during lcm's time, they would need to show (in writing or whatever), when what he taught was changed. Wasn't there even something in the new improved adv class that touched on debt?
[This message was edited by LuckyGirl on January 18, 2004 at 13:22.]
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Cherished Child
I hate to say this, but I suspect that the Peeler case has been "dead in the water" from the very beginning. The court transcripts posted at Ex-cult World were from March 2003 court proceedings. Has there been any forward movement of this case in the intervening months?
The transcripts showed some very interesting things: 1). Lawyers are very disinclined to get down to the heart of the matter, and instead, dance artfully around the issue, asking and confirming seemingly irrelevant facts and opinions, ie., "Do you consider consider Mr. Peeler to be an intelligent person?" 2). Peeler's lawyer is not the sharpest knife in the drawer of Juris Prudence.
If Peeler's lawyer is to prove that that TWI has a well entrenched history of using manipulation, pressure tactics, emotional blackmail, and threats to induce compliance from its followers, they are going to have to do a far better job than was demonstrated in this transcript. Where are the supporting witnesses, who are willing to claim under oath, that they were marked and avoided for refusing to tithe, or for refusing to sell their home, or for marrying someone they had been ordered not to marry? I know someone who was kicked out because he wore tennis shoes to "dress your best" functions, after he had been told to obtain better dress for these occasions.
The number of lies and wide-eyed denials made by Rosie, Roberts, and that fellowship coordinator were truly awe-inspiring. But There is plenty of both written and audio-taped evidence that proves that they were not telling the truth. When will such things be entered into evidence? Probably never.
Columbo will make Peeler look like a disgruntled ex-follower, who, for 30 years, fully and enthusiastically agreed with the practices and tenants of TWI until he read alligations of misconduct on Greasespot Cafe. They will show that Dr. Peeler was in no way coerced into giving that $41,000 dollars in the way of tithe, and that he is not entitled to get it back. Our own experiences tell us otherwise, but someone had better be able to prove this in a court of law.
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LuckyGirl
CC these things take time & time is on twi's side. They will try to delay & postpone as much as possible.
It also seemed tome to be more of a fact finding hearing to determine if the suit would move forward (or back to the state court instead of federal). No witnesses were there for either side, only defendants & plaintiff's.
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IMF777
Cherished Child:
The opening paragraph from the page where the court testimony is posted stated:" This hearing was one of the many legal maneuvers The Way International (TWI) has attempted to move the case to Federal Court. The Judge however, has sent the case back to state court where it started. As of January 2004, depositions are expected to be taken in the case shortly."
If depositions are being taken shortly, this would not be a dead case. Also, this was an evidentiary hearing because TWI was trying to have the case tried in Federal Court which would be more favorable to them.
The hearing was to determine jurisdiction, not to try the case which is coming up after depositions are taken. Rumors I have heard is that as many as 60 ex-members will be witnesses in the case when it comes to trial.
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Cherished Child
IMF, thanks for clearing that up for me. I am VERY relieved to hear that the fat lady has not yet sung in this case. Sixty witness! Wow! Boy, to be a fly on the wall of the courtroom when some of them take the stand. I certainly hope Peeler has a strong case and even stronger lawyers, because Colombo is a highly regarded heavy hitter. However, isn't his firm the same one that represented TWI in the Allen and Parker cases? Those all ended with settlments and sealed court records. What are the odds that this one won't end up the same way?
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IMF777
Cherished child,
Unlike the other two latest cases, the Peelers has the financial resources to weather the storm.
Also, the rumors I have heard is that they want it to go to trial so that all the facts about this group come out in open court once and for all.
Mike Anderson is a very accomplished attorney who represents the Peelers, and as you know, Lawrence Levy is co-counsel and has been very successful in cult litigation.
The original court filing:
http://www.excultworld.com/Peeler%20Lawsui...20Documents.htm
[This message was edited by IMF777 on January 18, 2004 at 14:26.]
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