I have no idea what CES has to say about dreams, other than what Ive read in the other thread, and that without me getting into prooftexting sounds way out of bounds to me.--- the same for 'personal prophecy'
As far as dreams in general go, I can say that there is within some circles of the established christian church ( not the wingnutty fly by night groups but the more established denominations), pockets of individuals that take them seriously and utilize them for personal guidance and growth, in an entirely different vein than categorized in the other thread.
Right or wrong, who is to say? I make no claim to have any 'doctrinal' expertise--- but I can see that "God spoke" to people via dreams in the bible, and that many cultures and religions have given heed to dreams in various ways for millenia as a way to communicate with the spirit.
Everyone dreams, to dream is natural and part of the universal experience, unfortunately most people dont remeber their dreams or dismiss them as meaningless. Some give heed to them.
Personally I think the best work on dreams, if you are interested was done by Carl Jung whose theory was that the dream acted as a mirror to the ego and revealed what was missing within the consciousness of the dreamer. For Jung the dream acted as a teacher and guide on the road to personal wholeness and was a source of wisdom and healing.
I have a tendency to agree, but only for personal growth, never as a means to project your own inadequacies on others and call it 'prophecy' as was happening in CES/STFU---Thats all BS
Chas, here's something that Mark S posted on page 10 of that thread. It's his letter to the CES/STFI leadership from 2000 pointing out the errors.
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
I been thinking about written to CES but I have not got to it
I am one that believe dreams can be the equare to speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues if they are interpreted
but one can all so let their mind control the dreams as one can just learn a few words of another tongue to make believe they are speaking in tongues and just quote a verse for an interpretation
the fleshly mind whether asleep or awake must be clear of worldly thinking
others wise the spirit must control the dreams or the mouth for dreaming in tongues or speaking in tongues
now I do not know what CES is doing at all
but I do know that there are two kinds of ministries
1. of men and for men
this one looks for worldly gains -- they look for money for sharing the truth either by sale-ing books, classes, and other things
2. the other of God and for God
this one God and God's workers share for free without cost looking for spiritual rewards
and yes a workmen is worldly of his hire
but which kind of workmen do we want to be
1. shares fleshly things and receives fleshly rewards -- money
2. the other shares spiritual things and receives spiritual rewards
note the PFAL class was taught from fleshly reading the work of others and taught to receive money we all know this
So CES may be a good ministry but they need to stop looking to sale things and post them on the net free
This isn't a cheep shot - but I don't know how else to ask this and not make it confusing...
So, are you saying that you practice the worship manifestations to yourself?
Can you please show me where that is done in the First Centrury Church? (Either in doctorine or practice?)
Again - PLEASE don't think I'm picking at you - I'm just trying to understand. I promise this isn't being asked to make you seem foolish, as I know several people who believe this practice, as well.
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow
down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Gen 40:4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season in ward.
5 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.
6 And Joseph came in unto them in the morning, and looked upon them, and, behold, they were sad.
7 And he asked Pharaoh's officers that were with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye so sadly to day?
8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:
11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.
12 And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days:
13 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.
14 But think on me when it shall be well with thee, and show kindness, I pray thee, unto me, and make mention of me unto Pharaoh, and bring me out of this house:
Gen 40:16 When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said unto Joseph, I also was in my dream, and, behold, I had three white baskets on my head:
17 And in the uppermost basket there was of all manner of bakemeats for Pharaoh; and the birds did eat them out of the basket upon my head.
18 And Joseph answered and said, This is the interpretation thereof: The three baskets are three days:
19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.
20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.
21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand:
22 But he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.
23 Yet did not the chief butler remember Joseph, but forgat him.
Gen 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
2 And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favoured kine and fatfleshed; and they fed in a meadow.
3 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favoured and leanfleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river.
4 And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke.
5 And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good.
6 And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them.
7 And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears. And Pharaoh awoke, and, behold, it was a dream.
8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Then spake the chief butler unto Pharaoh, saying, I do remember my faults this day:
10 Pharaoh was wroth with his servants, and put me in ward in the captain of the guard's house, both me and the chief baker:
11 And we dreamed a dream in one night, I and he; we dreamed each man according to the interpretation of his dream.
12 And there was there with us a young man, an Hebrew, servant to the captain of the guard; and we told him, and he interpreted to us our dreams; to each man according to his dream he did interpret.
13 And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us, so it was; me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged.
14 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
15 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.
16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.
17 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, In my dream, behold, I stood upon the bank of the river:
18 And, behold, there came up out of the river seven kine, fatfleshed and well favoured; and they fed in a meadow:
19 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill favoured and leanfleshed, such as I never saw in all the land of Egypt for badness:
20 And the lean and the ill favoured kine did eat up the first seven fat kine:
21 And when they had eaten them up, it could not be known that they had eaten them; but they were still ill favoured, as at the beginning. So I awoke.
22 And I saw in my dream, and, behold, seven ears came up in one stalk, full and good:
23 And, behold, seven ears, withered, thin, and blasted with the east wind, sprung up after them:
24 And the thin ears devoured the seven good ears: and I told this unto the magicians; but there was none that could declare it to me.
25 And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath showed Pharaoh what he is about to do.
26 The seven good kine are seven years; and the seven good ears are seven years: the dream is one.
27 And the seven thin and ill favoured kine that came up after them are seven years; and the seven empty ears blasted with the east wind shall be seven years of famine.
28 This is the thing which I have spoken unto Pharaoh: What God is about to do he showeth unto Pharaoh.
29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:
30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine; and all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine shall consume the land;
31 And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason of that famine following; for it shall be very grievous.
32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
33 Now therefore let Pharaoh look out a man discreet and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt.
Now compare these dreams with speaking in tongues
and interpretation of dreams with interpretation of tongues
ok now the New Testament
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Here one verse to think about
Now if man of old in old teastment times could dream dreams then either we can too or the men of the old testament time are greater than us
I say dreams are = to tongues and the greater is Christ in us were they only had holy spirit upon them but its in us
but this is just me
and yes I have done it but not daily like I speak in tongues
and like tongues the world outside can break my peace I need to speak in tongues or dream dreams
If I am in deep thinking and domething is on my mind i may come out with it in the interpretation of the tongue
and it not be a pure interpretation
all so if I go to bed with something on my mind I may dream about it too and not let the holy spirit direct my dreams
yes peace
more on dreams
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
now you can study visions which can be day dreams
now others books not in the bible have more but yhat search would take longer so I leave it here
but it comes down to you personally asking God about it in pray yourself
i think there are many wide gulfs and stark distinctions between how spiritual manifestion is understood, practiced, or otherwise approached in all the various biblical, non-biblical, extra biblical means and such
but one simple distinction i have come to see, is how:
1) Some view them (manifestations, dreams, visions, predictions, prophecies, insights, etc...)
as things and events that are seperate from ordinary reality, where conditions must be met to somehow stimulate them. Or they somehow do not exists, or are waiting to be given or earned or created. But mostly that they are somehow seperate and special. A lot of myth, story and relatively narrow and exclusive attention and prejudice as to what kinds of info is allowed when talking about them. Naturally, this can be a hard thing to swallow.
2) Some see them (manifestations, dreams, visions, predictions, prophecies, insights, etc...)
as being a way to map and experience the very fabric and substance of ALL creation and reality that surrounds us NOW, which is an "always already is and will always be" kind of thing. One's relationship with the manifestations leaves the book and weaves new living stories in life today. Which then includes the books to a greater capacity (from anthropology and art to the original reasons we celebrate holidays)
i think that perhaps the saying that "the map is not the same as the territory"
in an important thing to understand for those who want to live according to any scriptures
whether it is christian, buddhist, psychologist, astrophysicist, ecologist, politician, atheist, etc...
the meaning of books themselves are reborn again this way, it seems
and as this relates to dreams and predictions and angelic visions and visitations from above, below or otherwise beyond consensus reality....
dreams and prophecies are always true, good and beautiful
in all their manifold manifestations and expressions
and when we find a Way to simply Witness it as such
i think that perhaps the saying that "the map is not the same as the territory"
in an important thing to understand for those who want to live according to any scriptures
whether it is christian, buddhist, psychologist, astrophysicist, ecologist, politician, atheist, etc...
This was one of the first things I realized when dealing with twi mentality years and years ago. OH! I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D :D :D :D
**************************
Something a friend of mine said to me that was absolutely earth shattering in my life at the time...
(a little background story has to go with this to understand it I think)
She and I were talking about this guy who got mad at his wife, went out walking around in the downtown area to find a couple of women to bring home with him, ended up running into some quite questionable characters who got the big idea to scare this guy's wife by saying they were moving in and putting her out on the street. This guy paid them each $5 to do this to his wife.
To elicit sympathy and engender enthusiasm in these women, this guy had told these women all sorts of stories about how his wife had kept him locked in the basement and all sorts of crazy things.
As my friend and I were talking about this situation I asked her friend, "What kind of a woman would do such a thing?" To which she replied, "I don't know. Maybe we all would at one point or another." I asked, "Really? You would do such a thing? You would take five bucks to go screw with a woman and scare her into thinking you were going to forcefully put her out of her own home?"
She responded, "Well, back when I was not doing well mentally and emotionally, yes. I would have felt sorry for the man and would have tried to save him from his horrible wife. But that was back when I thought that saving others was the only way to save myself."
Wow!
It was a major paradigm shift in my thinking!
All of my life I felt that I was 'called' to help 'save' people...either as a preacher or a doctor or a therapist or a combination of these things. When twi came along with all of the answers, well, it was a natural for me...in more ways than one...no pun intended.
But when my friend made that statement I suddenly realized IT IS NOT MY JOB OR PLACE TO BE SAVING ANYBODY.
Wow!
Suddenly I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that my biggest mistake in religion had always been this idea that it was somehow my responsibility to save me or save others.
And the point of saying all of this is that I now see how so many 'religious' people get into the same old traps because they are trying to save the world and, therefore, save themselves.
With this kind of thinking, fanaticism, extremism, and a whole lot of other damaging stuff becomes the norm.
So introduce dreams and 'prophecies' and such...things that cannot be proven right or wrong except with time...which often means it's too late to undo the damage done...well...it all goes whacko as we all try to do what we aren't supposed to do and couldn't possibly do if it were our job.
Bottom line...
I think that most of what is coming to light concerning these things is that people's lives have run amok and instead of learning from their god/goddess/whatever, they took their old, broken, wrong understandings and became a savior in their own minds.
Words well worth repeating. To help someone with a compassionate ear, to share our experiences so they know they are not alone, that is one thing. To save them is something else entirely. And here's more food for thought on that subject, and then I will say something more directly on topic. As a girl who grew up in the 70's and 80's, I was spoon-fed Disney. I grew up fully believing that some Knight in shining armor would come along and rescue me, and then we would live happily ever after. What I learned though, is that the knight who needs to save you, needs you to be needy. What happens when you are no longer needy? Often, that knight will become verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive - to turn you back into that needy person so he can once again rescue you.
Now to dreams (I have no experience with prophesy, nor do I want to). I have had dreams that were "revealing" to me. Even a couple of visions (for lack of a better term). In every instance where those have occured, they did not occur to guide me towards an action or inaction. Not once did they lead me to offer advice or direction to another person for their life. In every instance they occurred to offer me understanding and comfort. To help me understand something that took place. To comfort me and help me through something. That is it.
I cannot imagine every becoming so arrogant as to believe God would tell me to tell so and so something. God is perfectly capable of communicating with someone directly. If someone won't listent to God, I doubt they will listen to me, so why would God need me to deliver such a message. I can't back any of that up scripturally, it is not an area I have ever been compelled to study, but to me it is common sense. To someone else it may not be and I suppose that is between them and God.
Once I had a dream where I was in a scary situation, and what I did to remain safe. Well, lo and behold, a few days later, in real life I was in that exact situation, and I knew exactly what to do. I like to believe that God was helping me out there.
I just finished reading Siddhartha and Demian a few days ago. I'd read them once upon a time before I grew up, but I had forgotten all that.
What struck me this time through was, "Oh yeah...I've been down these rabbit holes."
Also, I kept wondering if Hesse had access to a good therapist.
Religion, spirituality, esoteric planes, all that...well, imo, for me at this point in my life, these things are simply coping tools.
Now dream a dream of flying, wake up to a dragonfly staring you in the eyes, then draw up plans for a helicopter...that's a dream to dream for 'the world'. Maybe...because once the flying machines came along, the wars and the environmental damages snuck in with nightmares.
The prophets/seers of old were local...just like the gods/goddesses/whatever. Even the god of the bible started out being a local god.
The words and actions of these prophets/seers/gods/goddesses/whatever were specific to a locality or a clan or a tribe.
When a prophet/seer/god/goddess/whatever dreamed dreams and spoke words and gave instructions that reached beyond their locality, clan or tribe, it was war.
Which is exactly what happens today.
You and I can connect with each other concerning our dreams, visions, prophecies, etc. and discuss what we have seen and heard and learned.
But if you or I expect one another to adopt each other's experiences as guides down our own paths...well...then we're messing around with stuff we cannot fathom.
You and I don't know each other on a day-to-day basis, so we don't know how one another's lives are truly panning out in reality.
We don't live in the same community, so we don't face the same community issues.
We don't have family in common, so we have no history of one another.
If you or I were to get together and join our understandings and form a group and invite in others we are loosely associated with to participate in this group...
And this group takes on a life of its own and the dreams you and I dream become the standard operational procedures for this group...
Well, all the dreams we dream automatically become nightmares.
Because we have imposed ourselves upon others.
Even if we did it out of sheer joyous desire to dream dreams together, the imposition of our dreams becoming the standard by which all other dreams are measured becomes the nightmare of all things ugly and fearful and desperate and shaming and all that.
I Roy William Perry III know as year2027 hear the loving voice of Jesus the Christ the one who died for me and you. This Christ sends God’s love to each of us on a personal basic.
These are the words I hear that I will begin with sharing with you my friends. “There are two kinds of dreams one is a fleshly dream which has fleshly value and the other is a spiritual dream that has spiritual value.
Book are to help you in your walk the one helps you fleshly and the other helps you spiritually. The fleshly dream helps you deal with things of the flesh but the spiritual helps you deal with spiritual things.
The flesh talks to you in a known language of pictures in your dreams which seem to clear up things your flesh is dealing with. The spirit talks to you in a unknown language of pictures in your dreams then you may dream interpretation of the spiritual mystery the gift is trying to teach you by using your dreams.
Now I do not say beware of fleshly dreams but know them from spiritual dreams because both are there to help you with your walks for we do not just walk spiritually but we must walk fleshly while living on this earth too.
Fleshly dreams will value you fleshly whether its to help you make up your mind on a matter or solve a problem in your life and spiritual dreams will teach things like how make more spiritual fruit in your life.”
I feel its time for me to stop and let you put dreams in their place for your personal walk in truth my friends.
Thank you, with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy.
If I had posted everything I've thought about in light of this thread, it would look like the Guitar Thread upstairs by now...
I've had times when I *knew* what was going to happen in a situation and *knew* exactly what to do - but my actions weren't my natural reaction - they were of a more godly knowledge. In other words, God worked in me to save my a$$ or someone else's. The knowlege came from a "daydream" or a "feeling" about how someone else was feeling in a situation - a connection, if you will. I don't have the vocabulary that todd does to express these things. I can say that all had positive outcomes and that's why I believe all were of God.
I've had these happen a lot more since I was out of TWI than when I was "in". By "a lot", I would say it happens a couple of times every month, at best. Sometimes it's a big thing - like with a car accident happening right in front of me - and sometimes it's a rather small thing - knowing there's a toy on a step I can't see with my eyes but I still manage to avoid that step and an accident.
I believe God can speak to you in dreams, daydreams, or thoughts.
The way things sound on the CES thread upstairs is that it happens ALL THE TIME... like, God tells them what toothpaste to buy or what car to drive or where they might find a good parking space at the mall. Many of their sharings sound like something out of Sci-Fi movies - really dark, strange, and yet cliche. I don't hear mention of grace, love, and forgiveness.
I believe the worship manifestations - SIT w/ interpretation, etc., are more for that purpose - for edification - but that God wouldn't tell you something through someone else like what some of the dreams are being used for. For example, I can't see God saying in the worship manifestations, "John, don't go down Main Street today." I would think God would work in John to know that...
Furthermore, I can't see how these people KNOW they are accurately interpreting their dreams. How are they certain they mean what they think they mean? Have you ever had an abstract dream? I mean the kind where you wake up and go, "man... that must be what LSD was like..." or something of the sort?
Sure, you probably have. Then, what if someone takes some weird dream and turns it into something they think is "spiritual"? Of course it wouldn't have any fruit to speak of, but how would you know that right away if you subscribed to this belief in dreams.
Another thing - I can't see where some of these organizations even open a Bible anymore. Wouldn't this relying on dreams make people lazy? ("I had a dream that you shouldn't steal!" - "No kidding - the Bible says not to steal, you twit!") I can't see how this dream thing is so trusted... it seems to easy to twist up...
I still don't see where dreams being a vehicle for God communicating directly with you, daily, is a part of the Grace Adminstration. I don't see chapter and verse. I'm NOT saying I don't believe those of you who believe this - just like you could say you don't believe how I know God has worked in me...
I read a great book once on dreams from a Christian point of view.
The Bible basically divides them into visions (what you and I would consider lucid) which is not a dream, something else, a lucid state.
The other categories are "big" dreams and "little" dreams.
There are times, when in a dream, God does obviously talk to you and show you something - I believe this is for the individual. This is a "big dream." The rest of our dreams, regular "little" dreams, are basically products of the mind. For more explanation, I think Karl Jung had it correct, in his studies of dreams, which are the regular every day, little dreams. They do have a purpose, a reflection of yourself by your unconscious to your conscious. They reveal yourself to you, in ways, when your conscious mind filter is on during the day, you do not realize. Their purpose is to bring wholeness.
I like the above poster's point also. As Christians today, we have Holy Spirit, not just upon, but literally, in us. Thus, there is not really the need today for visions, big dreams, etc. like you see on the O.T. The Bible does say, though, in the last days your children shall see visions, dream dreams, etc. Once the "restrainer" (i.e., the Holy Spirit) is taken "out of the way" - or back to whence it came, when Christ promised the comforter and sent it here on a mission, and once the church is gone, and there is no more Comforter in the role it played during the grace administration, then, in those last days, thus you will have the need for visions and dreams again, as it was in the O.T.
Just my 2 cents. I may be quite wrong. But its great food for thought.
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mstar1
I have no idea what CES has to say about dreams, other than what Ive read in the other thread, and that without me getting into prooftexting sounds way out of bounds to me.--- the same for 'personal prophecy'
As far as dreams in general go, I can say that there is within some circles of the established christian church ( not the wingnutty fly by night groups but the more established denominations), pockets of individuals that take them seriously and utilize them for personal guidance and growth, in an entirely different vein than categorized in the other thread.
Right or wrong, who is to say? I make no claim to have any 'doctrinal' expertise--- but I can see that "God spoke" to people via dreams in the bible, and that many cultures and religions have given heed to dreams in various ways for millenia as a way to communicate with the spirit.
Everyone dreams, to dream is natural and part of the universal experience, unfortunately most people dont remeber their dreams or dismiss them as meaningless. Some give heed to them.
Personally I think the best work on dreams, if you are interested was done by Carl Jung whose theory was that the dream acted as a mirror to the ego and revealed what was missing within the consciousness of the dreamer. For Jung the dream acted as a teacher and guide on the road to personal wholeness and was a source of wisdom and healing.
I have a tendency to agree, but only for personal growth, never as a means to project your own inadequacies on others and call it 'prophecy' as was happening in CES/STFU---Thats all BS
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Tom Strange
Chas, here's something that Mark S posted on page 10 of that thread. It's his letter to the CES/STFI leadership from 2000 pointing out the errors.
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChasUFarley
God loves you my dear friend
I been thinking about written to CES but I have not got to it
I am one that believe dreams can be the equare to speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues if they are interpreted
but one can all so let their mind control the dreams as one can just learn a few words of another tongue to make believe they are speaking in tongues and just quote a verse for an interpretation
the fleshly mind whether asleep or awake must be clear of worldly thinking
others wise the spirit must control the dreams or the mouth for dreaming in tongues or speaking in tongues
now I do not know what CES is doing at all
but I do know that there are two kinds of ministries
1. of men and for men
this one looks for worldly gains -- they look for money for sharing the truth either by sale-ing books, classes, and other things
2. the other of God and for God
this one God and God's workers share for free without cost looking for spiritual rewards
and yes a workmen is worldly of his hire
but which kind of workmen do we want to be
1. shares fleshly things and receives fleshly rewards -- money
2. the other shares spiritual things and receives spiritual rewards
note the PFAL class was taught from fleshly reading the work of others and taught to receive money we all know this
So CES may be a good ministry but they need to stop looking to sale things and post them on the net free
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChasUFarley
year2027--
This isn't a cheep shot - but I don't know how else to ask this and not make it confusing...
So, are you saying that you practice the worship manifestations to yourself?
Can you please show me where that is done in the First Centrury Church? (Either in doctorine or practice?)
Again - PLEASE don't think I'm picking at you - I'm just trying to understand. I promise this isn't being asked to make you seem foolish, as I know several people who believe this practice, as well.
Peace.
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChasUFarley
God loves you my dear friend
I understand my friend
lets look at the Old Testeament dreams first
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow
down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Gen 40:4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season in ward.
5 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.
6 And Joseph came in unto them in the morning, and looked upon them, and, behold, they were sad.
7 And he asked Pharaoh's officers that were with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye so sadly to day?
8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:
11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.
12 And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days:
13 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.
14 But think on me when it shall be well with thee, and show kindness, I pray thee, unto me, and make mention of me unto Pharaoh, and bring me out of this house:
Gen 40:16 When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said unto Joseph, I also was in my dream, and, behold, I had three white baskets on my head:
17 And in the uppermost basket there was of all manner of bakemeats for Pharaoh; and the birds did eat them out of the basket upon my head.
18 And Joseph answered and said, This is the interpretation thereof: The three baskets are three days:
19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.
20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.
21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand:
22 But he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.
23 Yet did not the chief butler remember Joseph, but forgat him.
Gen 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
2 And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favoured kine and fatfleshed; and they fed in a meadow.
3 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favoured and leanfleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river.
4 And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke.
5 And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good.
6 And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them.
7 And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears. And Pharaoh awoke, and, behold, it was a dream.
8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Then spake the chief butler unto Pharaoh, saying, I do remember my faults this day:
10 Pharaoh was wroth with his servants, and put me in ward in the captain of the guard's house, both me and the chief baker:
11 And we dreamed a dream in one night, I and he; we dreamed each man according to the interpretation of his dream.
12 And there was there with us a young man, an Hebrew, servant to the captain of the guard; and we told him, and he interpreted to us our dreams; to each man according to his dream he did interpret.
13 And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us, so it was; me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged.
14 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
15 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.
16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.
17 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, In my dream, behold, I stood upon the bank of the river:
18 And, behold, there came up out of the river seven kine, fatfleshed and well favoured; and they fed in a meadow:
19 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill favoured and leanfleshed, such as I never saw in all the land of Egypt for badness:
20 And the lean and the ill favoured kine did eat up the first seven fat kine:
21 And when they had eaten them up, it could not be known that they had eaten them; but they were still ill favoured, as at the beginning. So I awoke.
22 And I saw in my dream, and, behold, seven ears came up in one stalk, full and good:
23 And, behold, seven ears, withered, thin, and blasted with the east wind, sprung up after them:
24 And the thin ears devoured the seven good ears: and I told this unto the magicians; but there was none that could declare it to me.
25 And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, The dream of Pharaoh is one: God hath showed Pharaoh what he is about to do.
26 The seven good kine are seven years; and the seven good ears are seven years: the dream is one.
27 And the seven thin and ill favoured kine that came up after them are seven years; and the seven empty ears blasted with the east wind shall be seven years of famine.
28 This is the thing which I have spoken unto Pharaoh: What God is about to do he showeth unto Pharaoh.
29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:
30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine; and all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine shall consume the land;
31 And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason of that famine following; for it shall be very grievous.
32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
33 Now therefore let Pharaoh look out a man discreet and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt.
Now compare these dreams with speaking in tongues
and interpretation of dreams with interpretation of tongues
ok now the New Testament
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Here one verse to think about
Now if man of old in old teastment times could dream dreams then either we can too or the men of the old testament time are greater than us
I say dreams are = to tongues and the greater is Christ in us were they only had holy spirit upon them but its in us
but this is just me
and yes I have done it but not daily like I speak in tongues
and like tongues the world outside can break my peace I need to speak in tongues or dream dreams
If I am in deep thinking and domething is on my mind i may come out with it in the interpretation of the tongue
and it not be a pure interpretation
all so if I go to bed with something on my mind I may dream about it too and not let the holy spirit direct my dreams
yes peace
more on dreams
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
now you can study visions which can be day dreams
now others books not in the bible have more but yhat search would take longer so I leave it here
but it comes down to you personally asking God about it in pray yourself
and again this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
i think there are many wide gulfs and stark distinctions between how spiritual manifestion is understood, practiced, or otherwise approached in all the various biblical, non-biblical, extra biblical means and such
but one simple distinction i have come to see, is how:
1) Some view them (manifestations, dreams, visions, predictions, prophecies, insights, etc...)
as things and events that are seperate from ordinary reality, where conditions must be met to somehow stimulate them. Or they somehow do not exists, or are waiting to be given or earned or created. But mostly that they are somehow seperate and special. A lot of myth, story and relatively narrow and exclusive attention and prejudice as to what kinds of info is allowed when talking about them. Naturally, this can be a hard thing to swallow.
2) Some see them (manifestations, dreams, visions, predictions, prophecies, insights, etc...)
as being a way to map and experience the very fabric and substance of ALL creation and reality that surrounds us NOW, which is an "always already is and will always be" kind of thing. One's relationship with the manifestations leaves the book and weaves new living stories in life today. Which then includes the books to a greater capacity (from anthropology and art to the original reasons we celebrate holidays)
i think that perhaps the saying that "the map is not the same as the territory"
in an important thing to understand for those who want to live according to any scriptures
whether it is christian, buddhist, psychologist, astrophysicist, ecologist, politician, atheist, etc...
the meaning of books themselves are reborn again this way, it seems
and as this relates to dreams and predictions and angelic visions and visitations from above, below or otherwise beyond consensus reality....
dreams and prophecies are always true, good and beautiful
in all their manifold manifestations and expressions
and when we find a Way to simply Witness it as such
we are more free to change and make more choices
and the quality of our experience tends to unfold
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WordWolf
One thing I've read-and agree with-
is that God will REPEAT messages to you.
The Old Testament didn't have a guidebook on dream-messages because they were not COMMON.
Dreams were common, but messages from God IN a dream are not.
This does not mean they are unheard-of, just that most dreams are NOT.
I would agree that MOST dreams are the subconscious clearing out the previous day,
or otherwise addressing issues to itself.
One key to understanding if a dream is a message from God, however,
is that God will use more than one avenue to communicate a message to you.
Did you get a dream and think it was from God?
Well then, pay attention. OTHER information will arrive from OTHER avenues if God
is trying to communicate to you.
Otherwise, it was just a cool dream.
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CoolWaters
This was one of the first things I realized when dealing with twi mentality years and years ago. OH! I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D :D :D :D
**************************
Something a friend of mine said to me that was absolutely earth shattering in my life at the time...
(a little background story has to go with this to understand it I think)
She and I were talking about this guy who got mad at his wife, went out walking around in the downtown area to find a couple of women to bring home with him, ended up running into some quite questionable characters who got the big idea to scare this guy's wife by saying they were moving in and putting her out on the street. This guy paid them each $5 to do this to his wife.
To elicit sympathy and engender enthusiasm in these women, this guy had told these women all sorts of stories about how his wife had kept him locked in the basement and all sorts of crazy things.
As my friend and I were talking about this situation I asked her friend, "What kind of a woman would do such a thing?" To which she replied, "I don't know. Maybe we all would at one point or another." I asked, "Really? You would do such a thing? You would take five bucks to go screw with a woman and scare her into thinking you were going to forcefully put her out of her own home?"
She responded, "Well, back when I was not doing well mentally and emotionally, yes. I would have felt sorry for the man and would have tried to save him from his horrible wife. But that was back when I thought that saving others was the only way to save myself."
Wow!
It was a major paradigm shift in my thinking!
All of my life I felt that I was 'called' to help 'save' people...either as a preacher or a doctor or a therapist or a combination of these things. When twi came along with all of the answers, well, it was a natural for me...in more ways than one...no pun intended.
But when my friend made that statement I suddenly realized IT IS NOT MY JOB OR PLACE TO BE SAVING ANYBODY.
Wow!
Suddenly I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that my biggest mistake in religion had always been this idea that it was somehow my responsibility to save me or save others.
And the point of saying all of this is that I now see how so many 'religious' people get into the same old traps because they are trying to save the world and, therefore, save themselves.
With this kind of thinking, fanaticism, extremism, and a whole lot of other damaging stuff becomes the norm.
So introduce dreams and 'prophecies' and such...things that cannot be proven right or wrong except with time...which often means it's too late to undo the damage done...well...it all goes whacko as we all try to do what we aren't supposed to do and couldn't possibly do if it were our job.
Bottom line...
I think that most of what is coming to light concerning these things is that people's lives have run amok and instead of learning from their god/goddess/whatever, they took their old, broken, wrong understandings and became a savior in their own minds.
Or they've flipped out.
Which is the same in the end, isn't it?
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Abigail
"IT IS NOT MY JOB OR PLACE TO BE SAVING ANYBODY."
Words well worth repeating. To help someone with a compassionate ear, to share our experiences so they know they are not alone, that is one thing. To save them is something else entirely. And here's more food for thought on that subject, and then I will say something more directly on topic. As a girl who grew up in the 70's and 80's, I was spoon-fed Disney. I grew up fully believing that some Knight in shining armor would come along and rescue me, and then we would live happily ever after. What I learned though, is that the knight who needs to save you, needs you to be needy. What happens when you are no longer needy? Often, that knight will become verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive - to turn you back into that needy person so he can once again rescue you.
Now to dreams (I have no experience with prophesy, nor do I want to). I have had dreams that were "revealing" to me. Even a couple of visions (for lack of a better term). In every instance where those have occured, they did not occur to guide me towards an action or inaction. Not once did they lead me to offer advice or direction to another person for their life. In every instance they occurred to offer me understanding and comfort. To help me understand something that took place. To comfort me and help me through something. That is it.
I cannot imagine every becoming so arrogant as to believe God would tell me to tell so and so something. God is perfectly capable of communicating with someone directly. If someone won't listent to God, I doubt they will listen to me, so why would God need me to deliver such a message. I can't back any of that up scripturally, it is not an area I have ever been compelled to study, but to me it is common sense. To someone else it may not be and I suppose that is between them and God.
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VeganXTC
Once I had a dream where I was in a scary situation, and what I did to remain safe. Well, lo and behold, a few days later, in real life I was in that exact situation, and I knew exactly what to do. I like to believe that God was helping me out there.
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sirguessalot
this thread is haunting me
how true are dreams?
i mean, really
what kind of dream is it that does not happen?
what about the dreams we miss?
are they not true, too?
does God see the dreams that we miss?
cuz without a doubt
as true as dreams
is the Witness of those dreams
invisible
eternal
generic
ordinary
clear
allowing
as you
with you
holding you
watching your mind dream
watching your heart dream
watching your body dream
as if "to watch" is "to feel"
and the clear darkness watches light "feel its way in the dark"
indeed, the eye of God is always watching
and not mere mythically, or mere metaphorically
one could say "God is so intimately involved in each and every dream we have"
cuz one way or another,
we will ultimately find ourselves
no longer asleep during the dream
no longer lost and trapped in the dream
but a place where you can fully experience what the dream has to say
like a kid in a movie theatre
watching from the ordinary place that causes the dream body
and the world beyond dreams
at the fountainhead of your self
at the wellspring
the true ground of your being
no...not above in the heavens,
but deep undernearth and wide and high beyond
embracing both heaven and hell as the Witness
where yes, christian, buddhist, hindu, hopi, jungian, quaker, jewish, sufi...you name it
can learn that they have all been learning the same "silly tricks" all along
in many kinds of ways
and so positively odd
is how ordinary language about this stuff evolves and crashes in waves
highlighted by new languages created in occasions of interdisciplinary common-groundedness
we may not realize it,
but undernearth the mainstream of all of them are the deep wide dreamers and gentle prophets
who can and do easily agree on this kind of very extra-ordinary but mostly overlooked "thing"
and way of being
where they commune and develop new languages to hold what they find in each other
as well as hold and magnify the texture and distinctions without prejudice
which involves a lot of discussions about dreams and premonitions from dreams, of course
no, not as children
but as wise folk with the heart and curiousity of a child
who view dreams and such as a primary and final terrain of our personal path in this life
from having lived and practiced and studied them in schools for so many generations
prayer and meditation
art and music and sciences
good food and wine and ways of celebration
simply allowing the dreams and premonitions to be heard
as an ordinary lifestyle...as play, even
but especially in places of healing, dying and respite
dreams have always been more important
more cherished there
for their healing properties
there have been waves of interfaith cooperation around this stuff
throughout all our histories
and right under our noses
in spite of the same old books and storylines being at world war with each other
but sages and saints and elders...as well as many young dreamers,
holding a silly rule of common-hearted-ness that allows us to compare notes on spiritual things
talking about ordinary dreams and practices alongside our medicines and traditions
involving diet, health, pregnancy, dyng, illness, prayer, etc..
art forms and lifestyles
surely, this is the kind of thing that was new to them on Pentecost
not that something new had finally come to them
but that a timeless awareness had finally come to them
as old as clay
a strange "new trick" whereby no one is freaking out (and basically "flinching" deeply) about things we often cant even pronounce
instead, we find a curious and fearless enough heart to reinvent our tongues
in order to hold the deeper, wider, higher and longer experiences of life
especially as medicine around grief...Jesus had just died after all..no?
and so
meeting people in dreams..
leaving your body and going on journeys...
encounters with angels and ancestors and demons oh my...
were considered part of the territory of the wilderness of creation
and valuable as such
all wise men and worlds scriptures and stories tend to agree
that without dreams
we are dark to our selves
that close close and vibrant view of the actual inner workings of our one and only vehicle
where we see for ourselves how we are mostly a mixed cocktail of glittering stardust and poop
but that is a lot
is it not?
i wonder...how far have we come from this wide open approach to dreams in our spirituality?
such as in twi and ilk...and our present day incarnations of christianity and islam and such
how is it that we learned how to avoid most ALL of this stuff?
our dreaming life is either hyped
or written off as invalid or less valuable to us
perhaps for being mostly insubstantial
we have made enmities with such ordinary and necessary things
and re-translated them into places of demons and shadows and deceptive satan influences
limiting our interpretations and experiences of dreams to a very narrow slice of its story
when there is a world wide pool of valid records of studies and experiences about dreams
where we are already free to compare spiritual things with spiritual things
i wonder if perhaps its time to find more ways to lift the lid off such things as dreams
before we kill each other over silly things as dreams and old books about dreams
i dunno
just sayin
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CoolWaters
Yo, sga, wow.
I just finished reading Siddhartha and Demian a few days ago. I'd read them once upon a time before I grew up, but I had forgotten all that.
What struck me this time through was, "Oh yeah...I've been down these rabbit holes."
Also, I kept wondering if Hesse had access to a good therapist.
Religion, spirituality, esoteric planes, all that...well, imo, for me at this point in my life, these things are simply coping tools.
Now dream a dream of flying, wake up to a dragonfly staring you in the eyes, then draw up plans for a helicopter...that's a dream to dream for 'the world'. Maybe...because once the flying machines came along, the wars and the environmental damages snuck in with nightmares.
The prophets/seers of old were local...just like the gods/goddesses/whatever. Even the god of the bible started out being a local god.
The words and actions of these prophets/seers/gods/goddesses/whatever were specific to a locality or a clan or a tribe.
When a prophet/seer/god/goddess/whatever dreamed dreams and spoke words and gave instructions that reached beyond their locality, clan or tribe, it was war.
Which is exactly what happens today.
You and I can connect with each other concerning our dreams, visions, prophecies, etc. and discuss what we have seen and heard and learned.
But if you or I expect one another to adopt each other's experiences as guides down our own paths...well...then we're messing around with stuff we cannot fathom.
You and I don't know each other on a day-to-day basis, so we don't know how one another's lives are truly panning out in reality.
We don't live in the same community, so we don't face the same community issues.
We don't have family in common, so we have no history of one another.
If you or I were to get together and join our understandings and form a group and invite in others we are loosely associated with to participate in this group...
And this group takes on a life of its own and the dreams you and I dream become the standard operational procedures for this group...
Well, all the dreams we dream automatically become nightmares.
Because we have imposed ourselves upon others.
Even if we did it out of sheer joyous desire to dream dreams together, the imposition of our dreams becoming the standard by which all other dreams are measured becomes the nightmare of all things ugly and fearful and desperate and shaming and all that.
IMO
:)
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sirguessalot
ah, yeah..well told, cw
i mean, gosh
how have we come so far that we've institutionalize a fearing and fleeing and hating of that which frees us
dreams
visions
prescience
travelling in dreams
meeting people in dreams
i mean...come on
many lives are filled with them
the bible is friggin loaded with it from the beginning to end
the past 500 years of rational thought has fields of fields of schools of studies and practice in them
art and literature we hate and love is so dripping wet with them
dreams are like blood
every world scripture and race
as we moved thru our stages and waves
from reptile to monkey to adam to caveman to abel to cain to jesus whatever you wanna call em
...full of dreams, prophetic visionary experience
and so how have we come to either claim they are not real, or very useful, or understandable
or how have we come to fear or control or otherwise avoid them
in our bold judeo-christian claims of being lineage holders
or pseudo-scientific claims
either way
dreams and prophecies are true and real
and rather extra-ordinarily always already occuring
and echoing in the background of our lives
and quite a gift to have such direct access to them
and quite another to embody and live them as they happen
honestly, how traditionally christian or scientific has our culture become about this stuff?
partial science
partial religion
rightfully rejecting each other's false claims
false, not for lying
but for being too-partial while claiming wholeness and holiness
mostly, we have surely lost touch with our dreams
i pray for times like pentecost
to hit us like a tsunami if it must
when waves of people start remembering all at once again
yes...we will likely have to come up with a new language to hold it, as well
otherwise, we will sound like silly confused children trying to talk about it
hmm
just sayin
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year2027
God first
Here me my dear friends
12-23-2006
I Roy William Perry III know as year2027 hear the loving voice of Jesus the Christ the one who died for me and you. This Christ sends God’s love to each of us on a personal basic.
These are the words I hear that I will begin with sharing with you my friends. “There are two kinds of dreams one is a fleshly dream which has fleshly value and the other is a spiritual dream that has spiritual value.
Book are to help you in your walk the one helps you fleshly and the other helps you spiritually. The fleshly dream helps you deal with things of the flesh but the spiritual helps you deal with spiritual things.
The flesh talks to you in a known language of pictures in your dreams which seem to clear up things your flesh is dealing with. The spirit talks to you in a unknown language of pictures in your dreams then you may dream interpretation of the spiritual mystery the gift is trying to teach you by using your dreams.
Now I do not say beware of fleshly dreams but know them from spiritual dreams because both are there to help you with your walks for we do not just walk spiritually but we must walk fleshly while living on this earth too.
Fleshly dreams will value you fleshly whether its to help you make up your mind on a matter or solve a problem in your life and spiritual dreams will teach things like how make more spiritual fruit in your life.”
I feel its time for me to stop and let you put dreams in their place for your personal walk in truth my friends.
Thank you, with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy.
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ChasUFarley
If I had posted everything I've thought about in light of this thread, it would look like the Guitar Thread upstairs by now...
I've had times when I *knew* what was going to happen in a situation and *knew* exactly what to do - but my actions weren't my natural reaction - they were of a more godly knowledge. In other words, God worked in me to save my a$$ or someone else's. The knowlege came from a "daydream" or a "feeling" about how someone else was feeling in a situation - a connection, if you will. I don't have the vocabulary that todd does to express these things. I can say that all had positive outcomes and that's why I believe all were of God.
I've had these happen a lot more since I was out of TWI than when I was "in". By "a lot", I would say it happens a couple of times every month, at best. Sometimes it's a big thing - like with a car accident happening right in front of me - and sometimes it's a rather small thing - knowing there's a toy on a step I can't see with my eyes but I still manage to avoid that step and an accident.
I believe God can speak to you in dreams, daydreams, or thoughts.
The way things sound on the CES thread upstairs is that it happens ALL THE TIME... like, God tells them what toothpaste to buy or what car to drive or where they might find a good parking space at the mall. Many of their sharings sound like something out of Sci-Fi movies - really dark, strange, and yet cliche. I don't hear mention of grace, love, and forgiveness.
I believe the worship manifestations - SIT w/ interpretation, etc., are more for that purpose - for edification - but that God wouldn't tell you something through someone else like what some of the dreams are being used for. For example, I can't see God saying in the worship manifestations, "John, don't go down Main Street today." I would think God would work in John to know that...
Furthermore, I can't see how these people KNOW they are accurately interpreting their dreams. How are they certain they mean what they think they mean? Have you ever had an abstract dream? I mean the kind where you wake up and go, "man... that must be what LSD was like..." or something of the sort?
Sure, you probably have. Then, what if someone takes some weird dream and turns it into something they think is "spiritual"? Of course it wouldn't have any fruit to speak of, but how would you know that right away if you subscribed to this belief in dreams.
Another thing - I can't see where some of these organizations even open a Bible anymore. Wouldn't this relying on dreams make people lazy? ("I had a dream that you shouldn't steal!" - "No kidding - the Bible says not to steal, you twit!") I can't see how this dream thing is so trusted... it seems to easy to twist up...
I still don't see where dreams being a vehicle for God communicating directly with you, daily, is a part of the Grace Adminstration. I don't see chapter and verse. I'm NOT saying I don't believe those of you who believe this - just like you could say you don't believe how I know God has worked in me...
Just some thoughts...
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Sunesis
Excellent post Clearwaters - really, I loved it.
I read a great book once on dreams from a Christian point of view.
The Bible basically divides them into visions (what you and I would consider lucid) which is not a dream, something else, a lucid state.
The other categories are "big" dreams and "little" dreams.
There are times, when in a dream, God does obviously talk to you and show you something - I believe this is for the individual. This is a "big dream." The rest of our dreams, regular "little" dreams, are basically products of the mind. For more explanation, I think Karl Jung had it correct, in his studies of dreams, which are the regular every day, little dreams. They do have a purpose, a reflection of yourself by your unconscious to your conscious. They reveal yourself to you, in ways, when your conscious mind filter is on during the day, you do not realize. Their purpose is to bring wholeness.
I like the above poster's point also. As Christians today, we have Holy Spirit, not just upon, but literally, in us. Thus, there is not really the need today for visions, big dreams, etc. like you see on the O.T. The Bible does say, though, in the last days your children shall see visions, dream dreams, etc. Once the "restrainer" (i.e., the Holy Spirit) is taken "out of the way" - or back to whence it came, when Christ promised the comforter and sent it here on a mission, and once the church is gone, and there is no more Comforter in the role it played during the grace administration, then, in those last days, thus you will have the need for visions and dreams again, as it was in the O.T.
Just my 2 cents. I may be quite wrong. But its great food for thought.
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