Here I sat thinking about the Way Ministry love of money and the many ways they use to get riches on earth putting aside true riches in heaven.
The Way Ministry sold the word of God in the form of classes, books, tapes, videos, and other things.
Today I got a Email with the subject “Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox Issue #303" from Rick Warren’s Ministry, a email I did not want but I get them because I wrote this group.
As I read “One key to successful preaching - become a collector by Rick Warren, all that came to mind is what money worshipers they are.
Then I went to Christian Family Fellowship web page and found the word of God being sold when it could been given out free. When I was in Ohio for a short time I went to their fellowship and they send out Sunday teaching tape out free but its looks like things may have changed and I gave them money to help.
Then I read “Living In God’s Power" “30 Hours of Biblical Teaching that allows people the opportunity to gain a foundational knowledge of God's Word, and to begin to tap into the Power of God. ( Donation of $150.00 for the series includes syllabus)”
I just asked myself what is happing here ?
Then I went to Liberating Ministries for Christ International ran by Dale Sides and out on the front page was a bookstore, classes and a donations part.
Then I read “CD Classes Now Available We're converting! LMCI is blessed to add dynamic audio CD classes to the equipping resources available in our online bookstore. Click here to see the newest releases and to order yours today!” So I click there.
Then I read “Exercising Spiritual Authority for Yourself & Your Ministry
This CD set focuses on exercising the spiritual authority we have been given as disciples to carry out our God-given ministries. God’s Sovereignty, The Authority of a Disciple, The Regenerated Spirit, Your Purpose and Your Ministry, and Defending Your Perimeter and Expanding Your Territory are only a few of the many teachings designed to strengthen your walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to heighten the exercising of your spiritual authority to make full proof of your ministry. 16 CDs + syllabus Item Number: CDA06 Price: $95.00"
Look like the Way Ministry here all over again but who am I?
Then I went to “Spirit & Truth Fellowship International” ran by John Lynn with John W. Schoenheit being the President today.
But what I saw was become a partner donate, online bookstore, and then subscribe to teaching of the month.
I look while I did not see classes in a fast look but I saw the word of God for sale in the form of books .
In the Bible I never saw Jesus Christ sale his teaching but Jesus Christ share his love free to others but it cost Jesus Christ his fleshly life.
Now after this looking at this I got sick in the heart watching God’s word being turn into a big Wal-Mart like store under sales men getting rich on earth.
Today with the inner net it cost very little today to share the word of God. I have a web page for free and DSL cost me less than $50.00 a month.
So I can not understand how these churches think they are building riches in heaven but they will only have riches on earth for what I see.
They read John 10:10 10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” and promise riches on earth to their members.
But this verses has nothing to do with riches on earth but its about spiritual riches in the life that comes after the flesh.
Jesus Christ never came to make men rich but to heal the dead spirits giving them life after the death of the flesh. The only things that brings riches on this earth is hard work .
Now I like to see what others think?
Thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
“For our money (pun intended), there's no other place it should go than to Spirit and Truth Fellowship, because, as we see it, the integrity of God's Word is at stake. Without that, we have nothing to stand on, and would be like the grass of the field, here today and gone tomorrow. Praise God for His wonderful Word! We pray that Spirit & Truth will continue to be a beacon of light piercing the darkness of religiosity, speculation, ignorance, and whatever else is holding people in slavery.”
I picked this up on the twi link you put down. For me it basically says what most groups are claiming...”invest in us” And if you don’t...you are going to lose, in this life AND in the next!
Really appreciated your posting, it says so much to me. “The Love of Money”...always wanted to put that on a poster behind those wizards of Wall Street on CNBC!
But I think you hit it on the head. Mainstream Biblespeak is a corporate business with presenters who have done their “research”, but they must have a market because, it’s still being sold. Maybe you have to go through a “cult” type of experience before you are able to see through the charade?
Like in Oz, it took a little dog named “Todo” to pull back the curtain and expose the wizard pulling levers! But once exposed...always exposed! Right?
This is one of the things I confronted Rosalie and the BOD face to face at TWI on.. And their response? 3 fold:
a) It is the culture today compared to Jesus day. (i.e. We must be conformed to the rules of the world culture)
b) Doc Vic tried to make it available freely and he said it didn't work. (i.e. We live by man's ways rather than God's)
c) People appreciate it more when they have an investment in it (i.e. Because a genuine love for God and hunger for truth probably isn't there, let's force it)
It's the most ludicrous, stupid, idiotic thing these self-proclaimed prophets of God have done. Exalted their dogma, their doctrine, books, magazines, and teachings aboce God's and made merchandise of God's things..
Christ said what? "Freely you have received, freely "CHARGE MONEY!"'? That's their motto.. But rather He said Freely GIVE! And the TWIT's BOD's response? What has God given you freely?! Like hello?!! LIFE! And everlasting at that. for starters..
Instead Jesus turned over the tables in the temple and said "Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise!".. Ok.. So what do we do.. We go right back and make his house a house of merchandise!
Jesus gave his life.. His very blood and sweat, and LIFE.. What are these guys layed back in their arm chairs sharing their version of "truth" for a price giving to people?
It sickens me every time. And then they have the audacity to copyright their work as if it is their own! God's word they expounded upon is owned by them! All I have to say is "Thanks!". Because that means it's YOUR WORK and NOT GOD's!! So I don't want it..
People genuinly giving from their hearts isn't the problem, it's the requirement of money for the things of God, that God gave His only son to die for and we want to now charge money for it! Christ died that we might be free. But wait, their's a charge for that!
Who are we?! Just cause colleges and university charge for teachings?! Just cause the world does it, we have the right? Sure, you have a right, but it doesn't make it godly! In fact it goes against what Christ said, 'Freely you have received, Freely give!'..
The reason they do it is to support their ego they call "THEIR" ministry. A Man-made ministry that is doing what they want to do (only they say it is doing what God wants them to do).. I have no doubt they do 'some' good in the name of God, and whether in pretence or in truth, I am thankful Christ's name is preached. However, just cause they have the right, it doesn't make it right. And according to the scriptures, according to the lives of those who are written in the scriptures, they gave of themselves, their very life, not requiring one penny.. That's genuine. The rest are man-made MOG's that have too much time on their hand.
Here I sat thinking about the Way Ministry love of money and the many ways they use to get riches on earth putting aside true riches in heaven.
The Way Ministry sold the word of God in the form of classes, books, tapes, videos, and other things.
Today I got a Email with the subject “Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox Issue #303" from Rick Warren’s Ministry, a email I did not want but I get them because I wrote this group.
As I read “One key to successful preaching - become a collector by Rick Warren, all that came to mind is what money worshipers they are.
Then I went to Christian Family Fellowship web page and found the word of God being sold when it could been given out free. When I was in Ohio for a short time I went to their fellowship and they send out Sunday teaching tape out free but its looks like things may have changed and I gave them money to help.
Then I read “Living In God’s Power" “30 Hours of Biblical Teaching that allows people the opportunity to gain a foundational knowledge of God's Word, and to begin to tap into the Power of God. ( Donation of $150.00 for the series includes syllabus)”
I just asked myself what is happing here ?
Then I went to Liberating Ministries for Christ International ran by Dale Sides and out on the front page was a bookstore, classes and a donations part.
Then I read “CD Classes Now Available We're converting! LMCI is blessed to add dynamic audio CD classes to the equipping resources available in our online bookstore. Click here to see the newest releases and to order yours today!” So I click there.
Then I read “Exercising Spiritual Authority for Yourself & Your Ministry
This CD set focuses on exercising the spiritual authority we have been given as disciples to carry out our God-given ministries. God’s Sovereignty, The Authority of a Disciple, The Regenerated Spirit, Your Purpose and Your Ministry, and Defending Your Perimeter and Expanding Your Territory are only a few of the many teachings designed to strengthen your walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to heighten the exercising of your spiritual authority to make full proof of your ministry. 16 CDs + syllabus Item Number: CDA06 Price: $95.00"
Look like the Way Ministry here all over again but who am I?
Then I went to “Spirit & Truth Fellowship International” ran by John Lynn with John W. Schoenheit being the President today.
But what I saw was become a partner donate, online bookstore, and then subscribe to teaching of the month.
I look while I did not see classes in a fast look but I saw the word of God for sale in the form of books .
In the Bible I never saw Jesus Christ sale his teaching but Jesus Christ share his love free to others but it cost Jesus Christ his fleshly life.
Now after this looking at this I got sick in the heart watching God’s word being turn into a big Wal-Mart like store under sales men getting rich on earth.
Today with the inner net it cost very little today to share the word of God. I have a web page for free and DSL cost me less than $50.00 a month.
So I can not understand how these churches think they are building riches in heaven but they will only have riches on earth for what I see.
They read John 10:10 10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” and promise riches on earth to their members.
But this verses has nothing to do with riches on earth but its about spiritual riches in the life that comes after the flesh.
Jesus Christ never came to make men rich but to heal the dead spirits giving them life after the death of the flesh. The only things that brings riches on this earth is hard work .
Now I like to see what others think?
Thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Roy,
I totally agree. What amazes me is that these people are of the same mindset while others have moved on. I subscribe to non-way(or offshoot)-affiliated podcasts, and they do not ask for money. In fact, they think it's abhorant to ask for money. If you click around their sites, you'll eventually find places to donate, but they bury these pages because they understand God's heart.
I think of the mount of transfiguation when Peter & Co. saw Jesus in his glory. What did they do? They told Jesus that they needed to build tabernacles. They sought to start a ministry. It is so human to find something powerfully spiritual and want to capitalize, or "can" it.
The verse being, “LOVE” of Money and the ROOT of ALL EVIL is pretty intense for me as a driving force that mankind has used both within the Christian faith as well as the secular realm. Most wars are based and financed on greed, Iraq being the latest example.
Look at the world financial markets today, it’s all about one thing, PROFITS and I don’t mean prophets! Quality goes down, profits go up (look at all the product recalls).
And then you have all the guys “gaming the system” one way or another just because the individuals within the greedy corporations don’t have enough and never will. The disparity of income was revealed in recent articles saying that roughly 1% of the population controlled 47% of the world’s wealth and 1/3 of that is in Switzerland! Imagine how that plays out here in Africa where corruption is the norm on first base!
“Once upon a time”...when “they had all things in common” maybe people didn’t have to work so hard to be the boss in just doing (and speaking) the Lord’s work. As Snoopy said, the Word was FREELY given, the reward eternal life. Where is the modern day “servant” of Jesus Christ when the business of the business is getting that tape, cd or magazine in the mail that has been pre-paid by Visa! I think CES had a problem because they (at least for me) became a publishing house, constantly reinventing the (wheel) same old thing. Publish or Perish, right? And who’s watching it all play out? The Boss who eventually controls the cash flow!
So, God is now a business, NOT freely given but sold to make your “life” a...feel better type of thing. Scripture is packaged as a commodity that you can put in your medicine cabinet when you’re finished with it, and pull it (the cd, magazine, etc.) out again when your head needs to go for another ride!
I have no problem with were you give your money my friend
What I have a problem with sale-ing God’s word
yes “once exposed...always exposed! Right”
no the people are not going to lose but the one’s using God’s name to get money
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved TrustAndObey
God loves you my dear friend
yes they have “made merchandise of God's things”
yes ("Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise!".. Ok.. So what do we do.. We go right back and make his house a house of merchandise!)
Yes “according to the lives of those who are written in the scriptures, they gave of themselves, their very life, not requiring one penny.. That's genuine”
lets have more genuine
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Blarney
God loves you my dear friend
it may be “It is so human to find something powerfully spiritual and want to capitalize, or "can" it.”
I am glad you agree
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
PS some verses to think about
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
the people that sale the Word of God are in a gall of bitterness or a lust for earthly riches
I love this thread! Perhaps because this topic has been on my mind for so long.
Our concerns about TWI or its offshoots are just part of what's happening throughout Churchianity in this day and time. I think that God is exposing this horrible wrong to all who seek to hear, and people are leaving institutions in record number -- and many are seeking ways to explore following Christ without the bells and whistles.
I thought I would paste this link, in case anyone's interested. It's an article from a website that I occasionally visit. Their teachings are very good and have an anti-institutional-Christianity slant. Their articles sometimes are rather lengthly, but mostly worth the read.
Roy, unfortunately merchandise for books, music, CD's, etc are today's "indulgences" for all Christian organizations/institutions. Although they all would deny it, it is salvations by knowledge/information(works), not God's grace and love. But that's my 2 cents. Your information may vary differently.
I agree Roy. Christianity is big business and there's lots of money to be made off of it. When I run into the Jehovah's witnesses, at least they give me their Watchtower magazine for free.
There are so many Christian sites where you can get free downloads. Amazing articles, you just print right off, no one's making money.
I like the point, indulgences. Yes, paying for head knowledge. Most people, in order to keep their ministries going, rake in the bucks with merchandise. Its like rock bands, they may not sell a lot of reccords, or make money touring, the big money is in the merchandise they sell.
These ministries need a "product" to stay alive. I think there will be some very surprised Christian "ministers" someday.
Agreed...selling God's Word through one's own teachings is evil at best. Sell bookcovers, pencils, bumperstickers...fine...
but NOT His Word. That's to be given freely, just as we've received it freely...(or did we?) Still, it's wrong and the practice should be stopped.
Just because some people in "these times" seem to condone selling it, and many seem to approve of it, that has never cut any ice with God. It is His Word...doesn't that fact
give Him the right to govern how it's distrubuted? After all, it is His living will!!
Beloved Thomas Loy Bumganer, Sunesis, and Listener
God loves you my dear friends
Thomas Loy Bumganer - yes I agree
Sunesis - the person given you the Watchtower magazine is paying for it - it would be like you signing a person for PFAL and you paying for the class
yes I am thrankful for "Christian sites where you can get free downloads. Amazing articles, you just print right off, no one's making money." and there are many boards and chat rooms to talk about God too
yes I agree "These ministries need a "product" to stay alive. I think there will be some very surprised Christian "ministers" someday"
Listener - yes "the practice should be stopped" but it will keep going to the end of time and we can do is teach others to keep their money in the bank
Here's a quote by the founder of the Quakers, George Fox, that I thought might be appropriate to this discussion:
But the black earthy spirit of the priests wounded my life; and when I heard the bell toll to call people together to the steeple-house, it struck at my life; for it was just like a market-bell, to gather people together that the priest might set forth his wares to sale. Oh! The vast sums of money that are gotten by the trade they make of selling the Scriptures, and by their preaching, from the highest bishop to the lowest priest! What one trade in the world is comparable to it? notwithstanding the Scriptures were given forth freely, and the prophets and apostles denounced judgment against all covetous hirelings and diviners for money. But in this free spirit of the Lord Jesus I was sent forth to declare the word of life and reconciliation freely, that all might come to Christ, who gives freely, and who renews up into the image of God, which man and woman were in before they fell, that they might sit down in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Seems as thought the Quakers had forgotten what he said...
It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and
WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported
by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels).
TWI should not charge for it's classes. They have (or had in October 2005) over $20 million in liquid investments.
Organizations that are just starting out need $. None of us work for free. If an organization doesn't have the funds,
it gotta get 'em to survive. (Example, the author of "The Dreamweaver", tried to operate a ministry gratis. It went under,
not because he didn't pray, work hard, etc. But because they had no source of income). Americans are generous to a one-time
cause. They're stingy in continual financial support to non-profit groups, whtether religious or service oriented.
I speak first hand, when CFF charges for it's classes; then sends a syllabus and CDs for the class. The syllabus is practically a
transcript and the class is yours to keep or give away. So the purchaser of the class could give it away (I suppose) to
another person/family. That would let the "giver" literally give the class/Word away. Last I checked, ALL businesses charge
for paper, CDs, shipping, etc. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially
supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not,
why the he!l are you complaining? It's not like you deserve it. You had someone teach you someting about God.
Let those who've not heard "hear it for free".
Well, I suppose that one would have to support a ministry, if one were in one. I, for one, am forsaking that broken paradigm more and more.
But, I pretty much am of the opinion that God is able to teach us himself, and we have no need that any man should teach us. It's the annointing, holy spirit, or whatever you want to call it.
He is able to teach us so much more, if we would dare let him. He will lead us to all truth.
In my opinion, the "Word" is an eternal ocean of truth, and the Bible is a tiny droplet within it.
I think it's the multi-million dollar organization that we've come to take for granted that is the stumbling point. It's usually headed by someone who is thought to be a great teacher. And in order to get his message out to the world, he needs this big organization. Why? Because HE has to be the one doing all the teaching. It's HIS ministry. After all, HE got the calling.
I further think that God's intended method was for one, who he called to teach, to fully instruct a small committed group, then members of that group each fully instruct another small group. Then those fully instruct more small groups. Etc., etc., etc. It's pretty hard to instill that fire in someone's soul to be a teacher, by teaching only from a pulpit to thousands...but all those collection plates produce a heck of a lot of cash!! It may be the modern way, but I don't think it's God's way.
...but all those collection plates produce a heck of a lot of cash!! It may be the modern way, but I don't think it's God's way.
Just my opinion, folks.
Dear All,
It, in fact, is as old as the human race, as the prophets, Jesus, Stephen, and Paul attested.
You are on the right track, although I would dispense with the middle man, as thousands of believers are beginning to realize...2000 years of being led by men, and we simply haven't seen what Jesus said yet...he will build it.. From the celestial realm, he's calling his sheep, the ones who are still and resting... He will lead, as he promised...the Shepherd. All others are thieves and robbers. They'll insert opinions and call them God's word -- and lead the sheep off the cliff, in a heartbeat.
Was it in John where Jesus said, "You search the scriptures, and you think that in them you have eternal life, but they testify of me; but you refuse to come to me." We have our tapes, lexicons, concordances -- all in an effort to come to the truth. But he is truth, the living word.
He gives to all freely. Let us save our resources for the poor and needy, our families, and friends.
Blarney - yes it “Seems as thought the Quakers had forgotten what he said” and not just group as forgot their past words and teachings to love one another
Mr Pipes - Am I complaining or are you because I believe it could be done without cost - do we need classes, tapes, books are do they need to sale them
Its cost me nothing to come here a great man Mr Pawtucket wants to bless us and he does and I do not think that we thank him enough
I am in a ministry “Grease Spot Café” and other board I am part of a online ministry
Blarney - yes Christ is to teach us one on one and we need no building – yes Christ and God want it personally with them and others
Listener - yes why does he need a multi-million dollar organization - yes I agree with your opinion
Blarney - yes “Let us save our resources for the poor and needy, our families, and friends.”
It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and
WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported
by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels). When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not,
why the he!l are you complaining?
Pipes,
No one is complaining concerning those who receive money. If people wish to give their money to a man-made organisation to help them do what they believe is best, then by all means great for them. But being willing to receive and requiring something and especially at an upgraded price is not Biblical. Nowhere. Give to them who have need, great! Of course! The tithe was not just for the prophets of old, but the fatherless, the poor, the stranger who had need. Great, we help those who have need. But now you want to say some guy came up with an idea, a ministry (usually just a cover for what he really means is a business) and now in order for you to be a part of it, if you want to enjoy the classes, be a part of their "important" meetings/seminar, you are required to pay (or now they call it a donation).. Yup, turning God's Word into a business, doesn't matter whether the heart of the man is right or wrong, what he is doing is unscriptural and has no backng by God, only the secular business realm. So who do we follow? Christ or man? All that we have and are is God's. So who he desires me to give it to, great! But for someone to try and represent God and now require that you give else no truth for deliverance for you?! Man's ways.. Nothing but men and their ideologies.
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“For our money (pun intended), there's no other place it should go than to Spirit and Truth Fellowship, because, as we see it, the integrity of God's Word is at stake. Without that, we have nothing to stand on, and would be like the grass of the field, here today and gone tomorrow. Praise God for His wonderful Word! We pray that Spirit & Truth will continue to be a beacon of light piercing the darkness of religiosity, speculation, ignorance, and whatever else is holding people in slavery.”
I picked this up on the twi link you put down. For me it basically says what most groups are claiming...”invest in us” And if you don’t...you are going to lose, in this life AND in the next!
Really appreciated your posting, it says so much to me. “The Love of Money”...always wanted to put that on a poster behind those wizards of Wall Street on CNBC!
But I think you hit it on the head. Mainstream Biblespeak is a corporate business with presenters who have done their “research”, but they must have a market because, it’s still being sold. Maybe you have to go through a “cult” type of experience before you are able to see through the charade?
Like in Oz, it took a little dog named “Todo” to pull back the curtain and expose the wizard pulling levers! But once exposed...always exposed! Right?
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TrustAndObey
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TrustAndObey
This is one of the things I confronted Rosalie and the BOD face to face at TWI on.. And their response? 3 fold:
a) It is the culture today compared to Jesus day. (i.e. We must be conformed to the rules of the world culture)
b) Doc Vic tried to make it available freely and he said it didn't work. (i.e. We live by man's ways rather than God's)
c) People appreciate it more when they have an investment in it (i.e. Because a genuine love for God and hunger for truth probably isn't there, let's force it)
It's the most ludicrous, stupid, idiotic thing these self-proclaimed prophets of God have done. Exalted their dogma, their doctrine, books, magazines, and teachings aboce God's and made merchandise of God's things..
Christ said what? "Freely you have received, freely "CHARGE MONEY!"'? That's their motto.. But rather He said Freely GIVE! And the TWIT's BOD's response? What has God given you freely?! Like hello?!! LIFE! And everlasting at that. for starters..
Instead Jesus turned over the tables in the temple and said "Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise!".. Ok.. So what do we do.. We go right back and make his house a house of merchandise!
Jesus gave his life.. His very blood and sweat, and LIFE.. What are these guys layed back in their arm chairs sharing their version of "truth" for a price giving to people?
It sickens me every time. And then they have the audacity to copyright their work as if it is their own! God's word they expounded upon is owned by them! All I have to say is "Thanks!". Because that means it's YOUR WORK and NOT GOD's!! So I don't want it..
People genuinly giving from their hearts isn't the problem, it's the requirement of money for the things of God, that God gave His only son to die for and we want to now charge money for it! Christ died that we might be free. But wait, their's a charge for that!
Who are we?! Just cause colleges and university charge for teachings?! Just cause the world does it, we have the right? Sure, you have a right, but it doesn't make it godly! In fact it goes against what Christ said, 'Freely you have received, Freely give!'..
The reason they do it is to support their ego they call "THEIR" ministry. A Man-made ministry that is doing what they want to do (only they say it is doing what God wants them to do).. I have no doubt they do 'some' good in the name of God, and whether in pretence or in truth, I am thankful Christ's name is preached. However, just cause they have the right, it doesn't make it right. And according to the scriptures, according to the lives of those who are written in the scriptures, they gave of themselves, their very life, not requiring one penny.. That's genuine. The rest are man-made MOG's that have too much time on their hand.
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blarney
Roy,
I totally agree. What amazes me is that these people are of the same mindset while others have moved on. I subscribe to non-way(or offshoot)-affiliated podcasts, and they do not ask for money. In fact, they think it's abhorant to ask for money. If you click around their sites, you'll eventually find places to donate, but they bury these pages because they understand God's heart.
I think of the mount of transfiguation when Peter & Co. saw Jesus in his glory. What did they do? They told Jesus that they needed to build tabernacles. They sought to start a ministry. It is so human to find something powerfully spiritual and want to capitalize, or "can" it.
Just my thoughts,
Blarney
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Bumpy
The verse being, “LOVE” of Money and the ROOT of ALL EVIL is pretty intense for me as a driving force that mankind has used both within the Christian faith as well as the secular realm. Most wars are based and financed on greed, Iraq being the latest example.
Look at the world financial markets today, it’s all about one thing, PROFITS and I don’t mean prophets! Quality goes down, profits go up (look at all the product recalls).
And then you have all the guys “gaming the system” one way or another just because the individuals within the greedy corporations don’t have enough and never will. The disparity of income was revealed in recent articles saying that roughly 1% of the population controlled 47% of the world’s wealth and 1/3 of that is in Switzerland! Imagine how that plays out here in Africa where corruption is the norm on first base!
“Once upon a time”...when “they had all things in common” maybe people didn’t have to work so hard to be the boss in just doing (and speaking) the Lord’s work. As Snoopy said, the Word was FREELY given, the reward eternal life. Where is the modern day “servant” of Jesus Christ when the business of the business is getting that tape, cd or magazine in the mail that has been pre-paid by Visa! I think CES had a problem because they (at least for me) became a publishing house, constantly reinventing the (wheel) same old thing. Publish or Perish, right? And who’s watching it all play out? The Boss who eventually controls the cash flow!
So, God is now a business, NOT freely given but sold to make your “life” a...feel better type of thing. Scripture is packaged as a commodity that you can put in your medicine cabinet when you’re finished with it, and pull it (the cd, magazine, etc.) out again when your head needs to go for another ride!
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God first
Beloved Bumpy
God loves you my dear friend
I have no problem with were you give your money my friend
What I have a problem with sale-ing God’s word
yes “once exposed...always exposed! Right”
no the people are not going to lose but the one’s using God’s name to get money
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved TrustAndObey
God loves you my dear friend
yes they have “made merchandise of God's things”
yes ("Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise!".. Ok.. So what do we do.. We go right back and make his house a house of merchandise!)
Yes “according to the lives of those who are written in the scriptures, they gave of themselves, their very life, not requiring one penny.. That's genuine”
lets have more genuine
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Blarney
God loves you my dear friend
it may be “It is so human to find something powerfully spiritual and want to capitalize, or "can" it.”
I am glad you agree
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
PS some verses to think about
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
the people that sale the Word of God are in a gall of bitterness or a lust for earthly riches
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
And they perpeptuated the myth, for over thirty years.
The same guy who said it didn't work "free" also claimed it didn't work with "love".
They've perpeptuated that myth as well..
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blarney
2027,
I love this thread! Perhaps because this topic has been on my mind for so long.
Our concerns about TWI or its offshoots are just part of what's happening throughout Churchianity in this day and time. I think that God is exposing this horrible wrong to all who seek to hear, and people are leaving institutions in record number -- and many are seeking ways to explore following Christ without the bells and whistles.
I thought I would paste this link, in case anyone's interested. It's an article from a website that I occasionally visit. Their teachings are very good and have an anti-institutional-Christianity slant. Their articles sometimes are rather lengthly, but mostly worth the read.
http://www.awildernessvoice.com/Merchandise.html
I once had an e-mail correspondance with a higher up in CES about this very issue. He just couldn't see it. :( Go figure.
My best,
Blarney
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Beloved Mr. Hammeroni and blarney
God loves you my dear friend
yes there were many myth from The Way Cult
yes I correspondance by mail about it with The Way before I was told I was not welcome anymore
looks like a good site I look forward to reading it in more detail later
I am glad this tread is blessing you my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Roy, unfortunately merchandise for books, music, CD's, etc are today's "indulgences" for all Christian organizations/institutions. Although they all would deny it, it is salvations by knowledge/information(works), not God's grace and love. But that's my 2 cents. Your information may vary differently.
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God first
Beloved Thomas Loy Bumganer
God loves you my dear friend
yes they are "indulgences"
I like that (salvations by knowledge/information(works), )
how true
Maybe if we stop buying we have more car sale persons today
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Roy, thought they were already used car salesmen
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Sunesis
I agree Roy. Christianity is big business and there's lots of money to be made off of it. When I run into the Jehovah's witnesses, at least they give me their Watchtower magazine for free.
There are so many Christian sites where you can get free downloads. Amazing articles, you just print right off, no one's making money.
I like the point, indulgences. Yes, paying for head knowledge. Most people, in order to keep their ministries going, rake in the bucks with merchandise. Its like rock bands, they may not sell a lot of reccords, or make money touring, the big money is in the merchandise they sell.
These ministries need a "product" to stay alive. I think there will be some very surprised Christian "ministers" someday.
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Listener
Agreed...selling God's Word through one's own teachings is evil at best. Sell bookcovers, pencils, bumperstickers...fine...
but NOT His Word. That's to be given freely, just as we've received it freely...(or did we?) Still, it's wrong and the practice should be stopped.
Just because some people in "these times" seem to condone selling it, and many seem to approve of it, that has never cut any ice with God. It is His Word...doesn't that fact
give Him the right to govern how it's distrubuted? After all, it is His living will!!
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Beloved Thomas Loy Bumganer, Sunesis, and Listener
God loves you my dear friends
Thomas Loy Bumganer - yes I agree
Sunesis - the person given you the Watchtower magazine is paying for it - it would be like you signing a person for PFAL and you paying for the class
yes I am thrankful for "Christian sites where you can get free downloads. Amazing articles, you just print right off, no one's making money." and there are many boards and chat rooms to talk about God too
yes I agree "These ministries need a "product" to stay alive. I think there will be some very surprised Christian "ministers" someday"
Listener - yes "the practice should be stopped" but it will keep going to the end of time and we can do is teach others to keep their money in the bank
yes its his "living will"
thank you all
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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blarney
Guys,
Here's a quote by the founder of the Quakers, George Fox, that I thought might be appropriate to this discussion:
Seems as thought the Quakers had forgotten what he said...
Cheers,
Blarney
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Mr. Pipes
Guys and gals,
It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and
WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported
by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels).
TWI should not charge for it's classes. They have (or had in October 2005) over $20 million in liquid investments.
Organizations that are just starting out need $. None of us work for free. If an organization doesn't have the funds,
it gotta get 'em to survive. (Example, the author of "The Dreamweaver", tried to operate a ministry gratis. It went under,
not because he didn't pray, work hard, etc. But because they had no source of income). Americans are generous to a one-time
cause. They're stingy in continual financial support to non-profit groups, whtether religious or service oriented.
I speak first hand, when CFF charges for it's classes; then sends a syllabus and CDs for the class. The syllabus is practically a
transcript and the class is yours to keep or give away. So the purchaser of the class could give it away (I suppose) to
another person/family. That would let the "giver" literally give the class/Word away. Last I checked, ALL businesses charge
for paper, CDs, shipping, etc. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially
supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not,
why the he!l are you complaining?
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blarney
Well, I suppose that one would have to support a ministry, if one were in one. I, for one, am forsaking that broken paradigm more and more.
But, I pretty much am of the opinion that God is able to teach us himself, and we have no need that any man should teach us. It's the annointing, holy spirit, or whatever you want to call it.
He is able to teach us so much more, if we would dare let him. He will lead us to all truth.
In my opinion, the "Word" is an eternal ocean of truth, and the Bible is a tiny droplet within it.
Blarney
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Listener
I think it's the multi-million dollar organization that we've come to take for granted that is the stumbling point. It's usually headed by someone who is thought to be a great teacher. And in order to get his message out to the world, he needs this big organization. Why? Because HE has to be the one doing all the teaching. It's HIS ministry. After all, HE got the calling.
I further think that God's intended method was for one, who he called to teach, to fully instruct a small committed group, then members of that group each fully instruct another small group. Then those fully instruct more small groups. Etc., etc., etc. It's pretty hard to instill that fire in someone's soul to be a teacher, by teaching only from a pulpit to thousands...but all those collection plates produce a heck of a lot of cash!! It may be the modern way, but I don't think it's God's way.
Just my opinion, folks.
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blarney
Dear All,
It, in fact, is as old as the human race, as the prophets, Jesus, Stephen, and Paul attested.
You are on the right track, although I would dispense with the middle man, as thousands of believers are beginning to realize...2000 years of being led by men, and we simply haven't seen what Jesus said yet...he will build it.. From the celestial realm, he's calling his sheep, the ones who are still and resting... He will lead, as he promised...the Shepherd. All others are thieves and robbers. They'll insert opinions and call them God's word -- and lead the sheep off the cliff, in a heartbeat.
Was it in John where Jesus said, "You search the scriptures, and you think that in them you have eternal life, but they testify of me; but you refuse to come to me." We have our tapes, lexicons, concordances -- all in an effort to come to the truth. But he is truth, the living word.
He gives to all freely. Let us save our resources for the poor and needy, our families, and friends.
My best, Blarney
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God first
Beloved Blarney, Mr Pipes, and Listener
God loves you my dear friend
Blarney - yes it “Seems as thought the Quakers had forgotten what he said” and not just group as forgot their past words and teachings to love one another
Mr Pipes - Am I complaining or are you because I believe it could be done without cost - do we need classes, tapes, books are do they need to sale them
Its cost me nothing to come here a great man Mr Pawtucket wants to bless us and he does and I do not think that we thank him enough
I am in a ministry “Grease Spot Café” and other board I am part of a online ministry
Blarney - yes Christ is to teach us one on one and we need no building – yes Christ and God want it personally with them and others
Listener - yes why does he need a multi-million dollar organization - yes I agree with your opinion
Blarney - yes “Let us save our resources for the poor and needy, our families, and friends.”
Thank you all
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Listener
I believe the means by which God teaches us is through Jesus Christ...each according to his need, as it were.
I think that's an individual, and personal, walk. Each doing what he does best, for the sake of the other saints and mankind.
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TrustAndObey
Pipes,
No one is complaining concerning those who receive money. If people wish to give their money to a man-made organisation to help them do what they believe is best, then by all means great for them. But being willing to receive and requiring something and especially at an upgraded price is not Biblical. Nowhere. Give to them who have need, great! Of course! The tithe was not just for the prophets of old, but the fatherless, the poor, the stranger who had need. Great, we help those who have need. But now you want to say some guy came up with an idea, a ministry (usually just a cover for what he really means is a business) and now in order for you to be a part of it, if you want to enjoy the classes, be a part of their "important" meetings/seminar, you are required to pay (or now they call it a donation).. Yup, turning God's Word into a business, doesn't matter whether the heart of the man is right or wrong, what he is doing is unscriptural and has no backng by God, only the secular business realm. So who do we follow? Christ or man? All that we have and are is God's. So who he desires me to give it to, great! But for someone to try and represent God and now require that you give else no truth for deliverance for you?! Man's ways.. Nothing but men and their ideologies.
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God first
Beloved Listener and TrustAndObey
God loves you my dear friend
yes blarney are Nicely said as are TrustAndObey words
yes TrustAndObey your words are right to the point no one stoping them its just not for some of us
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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